Multi-Action Casting - What new spells does this open up?

[Shiroi]

I've been thinking about the multi-action casting presented for PF2e, and how it opens up some cool ideas for spells which may not have worked quite as dynamically in Pathfinder. I love the idea that you can shoot more missiles, or heal over a larger area, using only a single casting of the spell but putting more effort into getting it right. It means magic missile is a really, really good spell - but sometimes you just don't have the chance to cast it properly and you're allowed to skip some details for a watered down effect.

I'm opening this thread to give a place to drop ideas on how you would port over old spells, or any new ideas you think would work best with this system. One thing I'd like to say, we aren't positive how the numbers will add up in the new game. This thread will be much less contentious if we avoid hard numbers and simply spitball cool concepts for the devs to math into the actual spellbook.

I'd like to see elemental trap spells, to start us off.

At the lowest level, you cast with a verbal component, stating in magic that 'none shall pass' so to speak. This marks a target square or squares as hazardous terrain dealing damage on a failed reflex, similar to a wall of fire but less powerful and not visible. It lasts a short time and is best used to cover a retreat at a choke point like a door.
You may add somatic and material components to draw runes in arcane chalk or ink, which fade away until triggered when they flare up, increasing the damage and lifespan of the trap.

I could also see it work really well for illusions, increasing the complexity/accuracy and number of senses involved. In this case, an illusion spell could involve audible hallucinations if you use a verbal component, physical sensations if you use a material component, and visual illusions if you use a somatic component. By the end of it, using all three actions makes a surprisingly convincing replica of something, but only one component would act more akin to minor illusion. This would probably be a spell slot higher than some other illusions, since it gives a 3/5 senses illusion with the full turn casting but also acts as a generic illusion of any of the three if you single action cast it, making it a versatile spell slot.

[Fuzzypaws]

The illusion idea is good, possibly with a synergy bonus of getting thermal / olfactory benefits if you use all three components together. Or alternately with olfactory being the material benefit, and physical sensation and temperature being the synergy bonus. :) With the basic spell only covering a small area like a single 10 foot cube, but upcasting adding additional area and also extra benefits like animating the illusion, letting it last for a while after you stop concentrating, and so on.

The create pit series could just be two actions at base, but adding a material component adds spikes at the bottom, and if your material component is a bottle of poison that you sacrifice to the spell that poison appears on the spikes.

Scorching ray could shoot one ray per component, with upcasting increasing the damage of each ray.

Gust of wind could be a line with one component, a cone with two and a burst expanding out from you in all directions with three.

[Shiroi]

Found another neat one, daze cantrip could force an additional save with every action. For all three actions, you have a very high chance of guaranteeing you both lose your full turn (granted they also lose their reaction). This would only be against the same target, because reliably holding one target still on a turn for turn basis is not so different from magical grappling, but three actions for three targets is far more than that low a spell slot should allow.

[Lathiira]

What's it open up?

Regular fireball: HADOU-KEN!
Longer casting-time fireball: SHINKUU...HADOU-KEN!

[Zautos']

cone of cold and similar could be
1 act= line
2 act= cone
3 act= Burst centered on you.

[Gorignak227]

Zautos' wrote:

cone of cold and similar could be

1 act= line
2 act= cone
3 act= Burst centered on you.

Cool idea. I like the mental image of a mage using his actions "shaping" the spell, similar to the magic in the dr. strange movie.

[WatersLethe]

I should hope that the majority of spells take 2 actions, allowing you to move and cast.

Sacrificing your move to power up a spell with 3 actions should provide a modest boost in power. Extra targets, more damage, higher DCs are all appropriate I think.

Using 4 actions, making a spell a multi-round spell and opening up for interruptions, should be possible and provide a significant boost. More targets AND more damage, secondary effects, apply the effects of a cantrip to all targets, metamagic discounts... I seriously hope this is implemented. Taking time to cast a spell is a pretty iconic fantasy trope that should be rewarded.

[Gorignak227]

Design of Multi-action casting
After thinking about Zautos' comment about changing a spells area of effect it made me think about what is fun about multi-action casting.

So i ask you guys, which philosophy would you rather have multi-action casting design follow more:

Multi-action casting = more powerful effects!
This design has been shown with the Magic Missile spell.

Pros:
Easy to conceptualize many ways to make spells better.

Feel like your actions are spent for something worthwhile.

Cons:
In use, the player will always want to do the 3 action cast and feel bad when they are unable to pull it off by having to move or use an action. Not as many meaningful choices really if its always "Never cast magic missile unless its a full round cast!"

or

Multi-action casting = change the effect!
This design has been shown with the Heal spell.

Pros:
Fun for a tactical player who enjoys the versatility of different options for a spell. For example, having the option to move to a hurt player and Heal them twice or do a burst heal for the entire party is pretty fun to play with.

Cons:
Spending all of your actions on the same effect can possibly lead to not feeling like you got a good deal.

After casting a buff spell that you need to concentrate on or spending an action to move you may be unable to perform an extremely important version of the spell. For example, you have a buff on a party member and your party gets fireballed (and you made your concentration check). You really need to do a burst heal but you can't unless you drop your buff spell...kind of a bummer.

[sadie]

The second option opens up a lot of flexibility for casters who have a limited choice, whether prepared or spontaneous. The question "Which fire spell do I take today?" goes away if you can take a single spell that covers all those bases. This fits in well with the much shorter spell selection list that we've seen - with only three spell slots per level per day, competition for those is going to be fierce.

[sadie]

I'd be interested in seeing what could be done with more than three actions, provided it can be flavoured right.

"What are you doing this round?"

"I'm screaming in a manly way and my hair is glowing bright yellow as I gather the power for my super ultra mega attack - next round!"

[Shiroi]

Gorignak227 wrote:

Multi-action casting = more powerful effects![/b]
or
Multi-action casting = change the effect!

Both, definitely both. Some spells need more options, some need more numbers, some need middle ground, and all of them should feel like you can see the actions being added and how this shapes and empowers the spell.

I can see an earth spike spell that comes in three actions, using a somatic to drive a line of attack roll physical damage spikes, a verbal to drive a final pillar up at the end of the line for a second attack against things in that square, and a material component of igneous rock to make the final spike instead be a 10x10 pillar that has more damage than the line and requires a reflex to avoid being knocked prone and tossed away.

[Dragon78]

Not just for multi-action spells but multi-action powers like breath weapons, ki powers, gaze attacks, kinetic blasts, etc.

[Unicore]

It would be awesome if spells worked where the verbal component, the material component, and the somatic component each did their own thing, and could be combined to have different effects, but that is probably something that would take another decade of careful redesign to make happen.

[Gorignak227]

Fuzzypaws wrote:

The create pit series could just be two actions at base, but adding a material component adds spikes at the bottom, and if your material component is a bottle of poison that you sacrifice to the spell that poison appears on the spikes.

I missed this on the first read through but the sacrificing of material components as an optional action to affect the spell works so well thematically and mechanically. Love this.

Now i really want the option of using different poisons on a spiked pit. So much fun.
And imagine if they allowed other options like oil for slick walls, acid for a pool of acid at the bottom...

[Mechagamera]

Summoning spells seem a natural place for something like this: Every round the caster has to spend 1 to control where the summoned demon* moves to where he/she wants it to go or to not move somewhere (to keep it away from the paladin, because kids will fight....), which leaves the caster up to 2 actions to make the demon make a simple attack (1 action) or a multiattack (2 actions).

* As an example of a summoned monster.