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Azih: the question is "where does the commercial stuff ends? where does the military stuff starts?"
If the typical gang member on Absalom runs around with a level 8 weapon, did it mean they have good military connections or is this just common stuff?
And if it's "normal stuff" why didn't they take over the station (security guards only have level 3 equipment).
It's the old level dependent equipment/enemies problem you already had in games which have such a price and power difference (if you want to build a believable/functional world and don't simply run some dungeon crawls).
The game needs more gear options for sure as what is provided in the CRB is pretty bare bones. That's what armory is for.
But I like the pricing for weapons and armors. You're going from consumer grade gear to commercial grade, to military grade to truly bleeding edge/experimental/artifact level gear. The leaps in price make complete sense when you look at it that way.
I agree, I fail to see how it is unrealistic or inappropriate at all.
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How about examples like the Onslaught Kishaxe, an archaic, analog weapon “crudely crafted from bits of scrap and debris” costing four times as much as the militaristic corpse fleet’s Massacre Class, Frailty Cannon? (540,000 CR worth of scrap and debris? That would be unsustainable, economically - too easy to fly to Istamak and trade for/make one).
I can get behind it as a game balance mechanic, but it’s hardly what one would guess based on flavour (which is what I mean by seeming “unrealistic”).
To me, the non-combat stuff is even more peculiar - a superior lock is 60,000 Cr (12,000 formal sets of clothing). It’s not that much better than a simple lock to be restricted to only the most elite, cutting edge, military uses.
To me, the non-combat stuff is even more peculiar - a superior lock is 60,000 Cr (12,000 formal sets of clothing). It’s not that much better than a simple lock to be restricted to only the most elite, cutting edge, military uses.To be almost sort of maybe fair it's the level 6, 3600 credit, lock that is the first lock a cr 1/3 space goblin (actually any NPC with the engineering skill) can't waltz through in less than 2 minutes.
So the locks just fail to have level appropriate DCs for their item levels which means that PCs can't use locks. NPCs can use locks because the DM/AP just sets a level appropriate DC, but PCs can't because any NPC the PCs come into conflict with that can disable any lock will walk though the locks that the PCs can buy.
Yeah, I don’t really object to the scaling of locks as a game thing. It’s just hard to look at that then try to justify “in universe” the price/restrictions on their use.
For me, I just use a WBL and tier restrictions for weapons and Armor. I prefer the other stuff to be justified within the narrative, rather than via mechanics (my players don’t generally go hunting for exploits when I run games loose like that though).
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How about examples like the Onslaught Kishaxe, an archaic, analog weapon “crudely crafted from bits of scrap and debris” costing four times as much as the militaristic corpse fleet’s Massacre Class, Frailty Cannon? (540,000 CR worth of scrap and debris? That would be unsustainable, economically - too easy to fly to Istamak and trade for/make one).
I can get behind it as a game balance mechanic, but it’s hardly what one would guess based on flavour (which is what I mean by seeming “unrealistic”).
To me, the non-combat stuff is even more peculiar - a superior lock is 60,000 Cr (12,000 formal sets of clothing). It’s not that much better than a simple lock to be restricted to only the most elite, cutting edge, military uses.
First, modules and paperbacks don't count, since they're rarely playtested to the standards of hardbacks and thus almost always have some wonky things in them.
Second, the personal axe of one of the greatest warriors of a formerly great civilization thought long lost would probably be worth quite a lot due to its rarity and status alone, never matter its primitive construction. Museums and collectors would pay a hefty price indeed for such an item.
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If you create this sort of economy just for "game balance" purpose, why not simply scrap it completely and say "at each level the player can choose one weapon and armor with the same item level as the character level"?
Or better: Each x level the characters AC increase by Y and the weapon damage by Z (removing the need for equipment completely)
If you break it down and remove all the fluff, this is already the current system.
The PCs get plenty of higher level gear as loot. Hardly someone uses only store bought goods, except on character creation.
First, modules and paperbacks don't count, since they're rarely playtested to the standards of hardbacks and thus almost always have some wonky things in them.How about examples like the Onslaught Kishaxe, an archaic, analog weapon “crudely crafted from bits of scrap and debris” costing four times as much as the militaristic corpse fleet’s Massacre Class, Frailty Cannon? (540,000 CR worth of scrap and debris? That would be unsustainable, economically - too easy to fly to Istamak and trade for/make one).
I can get behind it as a game balance mechanic, but it’s hardly what one would guess based on flavour (which is what I mean by seeming “unrealistic”).
To me, the non-combat stuff is even more peculiar - a superior lock is 60,000 Cr (12,000 formal sets of clothing). It’s not that much better than a simple lock to be restricted to only the most elite, cutting edge, military uses.
Granted if I was talking about an imbalance in damage or something. They’re not mispriced though, so that objection isn’t really meaningful here. (I’m overseas atm so don’t have my Core book - I dug out examples I had to hand).
Second, the personal axe of one of the greatest warriors of a formerly great civilization thought long lost would probably be worth quite a lot due to its rarity and status alone, never matter its primitive construction. Museums and collectors would pay a hefty price indeed for such an item.
Sure - but you’ve invented a whole bunch of flavour to justify it (and imputed one-of-a-kind status out of the blue, as far as I can see). That’s kind of my point. The flavour given in the book wouldn’t lead you to assign the prices as given - that’s the “realism” disconnect. It’s easy enough to manufacture justification for just about anything - if the prices followed “realistic” guidelines you wouldn’t need to because they’d seem reasonable off the bat.
I didn't have to invent anything. The adventure in which those weapons appear make it abundantly clear that those weapons come from the greatest warriors of a formerly great civilization thought long lost.
They even created a new class of item to better represent this, they're called relics.
In short, I'm arguing that (in the context of the Starfinder setting) they do seem reasonable right off the bat.
How about the superior lock being worth 12000 formal outfits?
Would you have guessed that pricing from their descriptions/functions?
@Ravingdork:
I don't know the adventure, but why should a weapon of a the greatest warrior of all time do impressive more damage then a normal weapon?
A metal bar is a metal bar, no matter what it's backstory is or who wear it.
The superior lock is a level 14 item, with a DC of 40 to be picked - the best lock available in the market. Anything that carries such a label usually is heavy on the price. I think it's a silly item because at level 14 most characters will have plenty of means of bypassing a lock without resorting to engineering skill checks. But a rich NPC might as well leave one in his lair for the level 7 PCs to deal with.
If you go to any supermarket or hypermarket you'll see plenty of luxury items with nonsense prices. Branding, availability, distribution, marketing. Not everything is math when it comes to retail.
A metal bar is a metal bar, no matter what it's backstory is or who wear it.
Not sure if joking, or serious.
But this is a good start:
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The level 19 primitive kishaxe likely does high level damage because the scrap they're made from is superior metal alloys invented by said long lost civilization. So sharp and enduring that it's simple rough-shod construction belies the amazing properties of the advanced materials used in its design.
It's cutting edge, strength, and other properties is to most other conventional Starfinder materials what adamantine is to bronze, or perhaps even adamantine to aluminum foil or paper. It's ship shielding designed to withstand the rigors of light speed collisions, that got turned into an axe, or something crazy like that!
Other kishaxes are simply cobbled together from lesser materials (or are less well put together), and so do less damage, perhaps high-end plastics or tough glass shards.
This idea is supported by the hardness and hit points of such an item. A level 19 kishaxe has a hardness of 40 and 72 hit points. That's not common steel! :P
There is a lot of abstraction, I admit, but filling in those blanks in a game of imagination is supposed to be part of the fun!
My kishaxe could be made of amazing scifi ship shielding, whereas yours was made from the metallic hide of a long dead god-beast, while that other guy's gravity spear's internal tech mirrors the gravitational properties of a dwarf star, and is constructed from dwarf star alloys.
Point is, some level of abstraction is absolutely necessary in a game that is going to have limitless types of technology from an untold number of civilizations, many of which have yet to be discovered. Just because some people don't like it and want to write it off, doesn't mean it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
EDIT:
EDIT:
The superior lock is a level 14 item, with a DC of 40 to be picked - the best lock available in the market. Anything that carries such a label usually is heavy on the price. I think it's a silly item because at level 14 most characters will have plenty of means of bypassing a lock without resorting to engineering skill checks. But a rich NPC might as well leave one in his lair for the level 7 PCs to deal with.
If you go to any supermarket or hypermarket you'll see plenty of luxury items with nonsense prices. Branding, availability, distribution, marketing. Not everything is math when it comes to retail.
Yeah, the concept of “high end is more expensive” makes perfect sense - but the tier thing isn’t about branding (or rich, level one people could buy it) it’s about restricted access due to military restrictions/licenses/bribes/etcetera.
If you read the item and the improvement it offers over other locks, would you think “oh yeah, that’d be worth about 12000 formal outfits”?
Contrary to the insulting second spoiler above (disparaging speculation on other people’s motives - yay for the internet) I’m explaining what the issue is that I see, not complaining. I like abstraction, I just agree with the OP that it’s not “realistic” at all (using that concept in the way i have been).
For me, tying the noncombat stuff to the tier system is unnecessary, so I handwave tracking devices, locks, even vehicles (restricted access of those being another spot that jars with my intuition). As far as PC balance goes, I think the three “power tracks” of experimence, build points and credits-for-combat-gear works well - none of them strike me as “realistic” though.
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Yeah, the concept of “high end is more expensive” makes perfect sense - but the tier thing isn’t about branding (or rich, level one people could buy it) it’s about restricted access due to military restrictions/licenses/bribes/etcetera.
Not sure where that definition comes from.
From page 167 CRB:
An object’s item level represents the scarcity and value of the
technology and/or magic employed in its construction—
higher-level items generally incorporate more advanced technology or mystical forces.
Seems more like a R&D problem.
Maybe it's from this bit? Sounds more like an abstraction about social networking, though.
Item level also helps convey the fact that buying equipment
is more involved than just placing an order. Even finding the
items you desire isn’t always easy, and those who have access
to things such as powerful weapons and armor tend to deal only
with people they trust.
And rich people (well, NPC only, really) use this loophole:
While
characters can utilize items of any level, Game Masters should
keep in mind that allowing characters access to items far above
their current level may imbalance the game.
...
...
I’m explaining what the issue is that I see, not complaining. I like abstraction, I just agree with the OP that it’s not “realistic” at all (using that concept in the way i have been).
I think higher end goods having silly prices makes the game more realistic, if you compare it to real life retail - but less realistic in a mathematical kind of way.
On the topic of players not getting to buy everything they want... can't their characters loot, steal, trade, negotiate with their patrons or something? Must everything be bought from a catalogue?
It was suggested upthread as a reason for the exponential price increases.
I thought that definition was the whole justification for tiers of equipment? That restricting gear access to (level+2) was an abstraction of availability/legality issues.
It was suggested upthread as a reason for the exponential price increases.
I thought that definition was the whole justification for tiers of equipment? That restricting gear access to (level+2) was an abstraction of availability/legality issues.
I think that's just an interpretation, as much as my branding and marketing one. The official version is in the quote above.
And the restriction (actually only a suggestion) is for shopping, not even for using them.
I'll just add the relevant information on item level, from the same page:
An object’s item level also determines its
hardness and Hit Points and
is an indicator of the level at which a character should typically
expect to both have access to the item and be able to craft it.
.
Rather than meticulously track every arms dealer, contact,
guild, and license a character has access to, the game assumes
that in typical settlements you can find and purchase anything
with an item level no greater than your character level + 1, and at
major settlements items up to your character level + 2. The GM
can restrict access to some items (even those of an appropriate
level) or make items of a higher level available for purchase
(possibly at a greatly increased price or in return for a favor done
for the seller).
It was suggested upthread as a reason for the exponential price increases.
I thought that definition was the whole justification for tiers of equipment? That restricting gear access to (level+2) was an abstraction of availability/legality issues.
I think that's just an interpretation, as much as my branding and marketing one. The official version is in the quote above.
And the restriction (actually only a suggestion) is for shopping, not even for using them.
Yeah, my disconnect is all about purchasing them (though note that found equipment counts towards WBL too).
I don’t feel it represents a realistic economy very well, nor do I think it adds much to the game to restrict access to non-combat equipment in this way. I’m interested to hear that there are people who do find it gels with their instincts. For me, trying to allocate prices based off the item descriptions and how I think they’d fit into this hypothetical economy is a hopeless endeavour.
Great real world example there Greydoch! Thanks!
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I just wanted to comment that I initially (and for quite a while) had issues with the way equipment works in Starfinder, and wondered why the forced level mechanic wasn't instead simplified, and the "damage" regulated to class advancement instead. I eventually realized that the Starfinder equipment system has a certain amount of brilliance in it, as the system covers the following ideas (and you can use them as in-game reasons) exceedingly well:
Artificial or Forced Scarcity - this is a universe where combat, adventurers, mercenaries and explorers are the norm; an industry around specialized, advanced and prestige level weapons will rapidly form to take advantage of that and milk the space-mercs for their hard won cash.
Industrial but also Curated and Unique - there is little to suggest that many of these weapons aren't being meticulously hand-crafted and individually modified at some level down the road; spells are enforcing and making weapons more effective, even if the weapons themselves aren't exclusively magic items. The technical side of industrialization probably makes tons of cheap weaponry for lower levels, but the really good stuff takes care and art to produce.
An Economy Driven by Adventurers - similar to the first item above, this is an economy driven largely by people who won't spend much on a fancy dress, but they will totally splurge on a very efficient plasma cannon. Starfinder's universe is not our world; it's a place where much of the cash circulating in the economy comes from plunder, looting and hitting it big; it's a Wild West anything goes Gold Rush combined with a sci fi Gig Economy, and prestige weapons and armor feed right in to it.
Legality - this really does apply at a certain level in our own world, and it's the reason that most of us, in the US at least, might be able to afford a handgun but we can't get ahold of a light machine gun. Starfinder's trade markets are on the civilized worlds and they probably have laws in place to insure that the really deadly stuff doesn't fall into the wrong (e.g. inexperienced or criminal) hands.
Fate - the great thing about Starfinder is it's a universe with magic and gods. When players grouse that the NPCs never seem to drop high level gear (always coincidentally within 1-2 levels of their CR appropriate loads) it is worth pointing out that such is the will of the gods that the PCs never seem to get lucky and drop a skittermander with a set of level 15 storm polarity gauntlets.
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Traveller, maybe? I'm guessing that Ixal isn't thinking of Space Opera, because no one is ever thinking of Space Opera.
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In the end, Starfinder is just a dungeon crawler. Anything else is just an afterthought, including the economy and item pricing. It doesn't make any sense and only exists as a backdrop for the PCs to stock up before vanishing into the next dungeon to murder stuff.
A real shame that Paizo was too afraid to do a real SciFi game instead of just doing Pathfinder with lasers.
Why make "a real sci-fi game"? They already exist.
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A real shame that Paizo was too afraid to do a real SciFi game instead of just doing Pathfinder with lasers.
I'm not sure "too afraid" is the correct terminology.
I'm pretty sure the thought process was, "Dude, we could do Pathfinder... with lasers!"
They had a winning formula already, and chose to expand it into a new genre.
I've played "real sci-fi games." For example, there's Serenity, the Firefly-based game using the CORTEX engine. It's a good game. It's 100% a different experience than Starfinder. I've played Gamma World, which is technically post-apocalyptic sci-fi. It's a great game, but it is an anarchic mess of randomized game mechanics* that we absolutely did not need from Starfinder.
We don't need two Serenities or Gamma Worlds, but we kinda did need a Starfinder.
*
So.. everyone is handed a tactical nuclear pistol at level 1, or everyone gets a blaster at level 1 and damage is based on your level?
So you'd have to do away with a level based HP system then?
He wants some old school stuff... (bleeped swearing)
This is what happens when criticisms aren't specific.
Dungeon crawl doesn't refer to the speed of your going through the dungeon but rather the round by round exploration and fighting style of adventure. Some pathfinder parties can clear a LOT of real estate in the 15 minute workday
Dungeon crawl doesn't refer to the speed of your going through the dungeon but rather the round by round exploration and fighting style of adventure. Some pathfinder parties can clear a LOT of real estate in the 15 minute workdayAnd Shadowrun doesn't generally work that way - you usually only go into Initiative when you have to, because Initiative Passes are actually a lot of management with a huge impact on the flow of the game; you do not use them for general movement.
Ideally, you've got a floorplan before you show up anywhere in the first place.
Okay, you keep taking things that people aren't saying, at all, and refuting them.
I suspect “dungeon crawl” is the ambiguous term.
Shadowrun is effectively cyberpunk sci-fi with the addition of magic - and it adds magic very much within that context. It wouldn't be accurate to describe it as science fantasy.
He cites Shadowrun positively, so it's not the mix of fantasy with science fiction that's the problem. It's certainly possible to do science fantasy without the gear pricing issues, that's just not the Pathfinder approach they were emulating.
What do you think Science-Fantasy entails?
Until Starfinder, Shadowrun would have been one of my go to examples of Science Fantasy (Numenera being the other one).
I think science fantasy is just a genre utilising tropes drawn from both Science fiction and fantasy. What definition would you use?
I would argue that it's a genre distinct from sci-fi, because it's using a futuristic/high-tech setting to tell a story more in the vein of fantasy. Think... Star Wars versus Star Trek. Adding magic to Star Trek wouldn't change the ways in which it is deeply, deeply different from Star Wars.Shadowrun is effectively cyberpunk sci-fi with the addition of magic - and it adds magic very much within that context. It wouldn't be accurate to describe it as science fantasy.
He cites Shadowrun positively, so it's not the mix of fantasy with science fiction that's the problem. It's certainly possible to do science fantasy without the gear pricing issues, that's just not the Pathfinder approach they were emulating.What do you think Science-Fantasy entails?
Until Starfinder, Shadowrun would have been one of my go to examples of Science Fantasy (Numenera being the other one).
I think science fantasy is just a genre utilising tropes drawn from both Science fiction and fantasy. What definition would you use?
I think it’s a genre distinct from sci-fi too - it is a derivative genre utilising tropes from both, in my view.
Adding magic to a science fiction setting doesn’t suddenly mean it’s science fantasy, sure. But if you added orcs, magic swords, dragons.... isn’t that going to end up as science fantasy?
What would be your definition?
I think it’s premature to launch into comparisons. I’m curious what definition of “science fantasy” you use.
Earlier, it was clear there was a disconnect between what you took for “dungeon crawl” and what some others did. I find it useful to find out people’s underlying definitions in that situation (since the dispute is likely to just be one of terminology).
The closest I can piece together is “a subset of science fiction, where protagonists can become powerful enough to be safe from ordinary threats” but I suspect there’s more to it than that.