As mentioned in another thread, I thought up some possible classes for various Marvel and DC characters. I decided to actually make some sheets for some of them and have started with DC's Captain Cold. I'm going with a human Spellslinger for him. A Spellslinger is a Wizard archetype that can shoot his spells through his gun.
Here are his stats:
10 Str, 16 Dex, 13 Con, 16 Int, 14 Wis, 10 Cha
(Mechanically it would have been better to drop his Cha to increase his Con, but Captain Cold is known to be pretty charming when he wants to be.)
I'm trying to figure out what traits I want him to have. How useful is UMD to a Wizard?
I've narrowed it down to these:
Magic:
Pragmatic Activator: Can use Int for UMD checks instead of Cha
Dangerously Curious: +1 UMD, class skill
Combat:
Black Powder Fortune: As long as you are wielding a firearm, you gain a +2 trait bonus on all saving throws against curse, fear, and emotion effects.
Never Stop Shooting: If your HP drops to zero or lower but you aren't dead, you can act as if disabled instead of dying. But you can only use your actions to draw, reload, or attack with a firearm.
Unblemished Barrel: +1 trait on Craft Alchemy and Craft Weapons, and it only takes 30 minutes to remove the broken condition from a gun.
Social:
Criminal: +1 trait and class skill on either Disable Device, Intimidate, or Sleight of Hand.
Life of Toil: +1 trait Fort
Religion:
Nimble Fingers, Keen Mind: +1 trait Disable Device, class skill
Most of the time with the Spellslinger, you'll be taking either the Magical Lineage trait to bolster a spell you intend to specialize in, or the Magical Knack trait to ease the pain of multiclassing. The Spellslinger is one of those early firearm archetypes where Paizo didn't really have it figured out yet, and while it some very powerful abilities it doesn't have any particular synergy and as such doesn't really function as a stand-alone character. This means multiclassing is pretty much necessary to make it functional. There are three directions you can go with Spellslinger multiclass: Sorcerer, Magus, or Eldritch Knight. Each has their pros and cons and gives a very different flavor of character:
Spellslinger 1 / Sorcerer X this build focuses on combining the Sorcerer's Bloodline Arcana with the Spellslinger's Arcane Gun for maximum power from his spells. For this approach, you'd take the Primal Water bloodline. Exchange your 1st level bloodline power for Blood Havoc, which stacks with the the Primal Elemental bloodline arcana. For feats, the mandatory ones are Spell Focus, Spell Specialization, Empowered Spell, Intensified Spell, Quickened Spell, and Spell Perfection. Typically you'd want at least 18 charisma on this build, preferably 20. The level in Spellslinger is usually delayed until 7th level, since the Spellslinger archetype doesn't do very much until you can get at least a +2 weapon. The overwhelmingly best trait for this build is Magical Lineage; pick your favorite cold spell and bolster it with this trait.
Spellslinger 1 / Eldritch Archer Magus X the Eldritch Archer is a Magus archetype that allows you to use spell combat and spellstrike with ranged weapons. By way of the Reach Spellstrike arcana you can deliver spells like Frigid Touch through your gun. It's a very solid build with a lot of synergy. Due to relying on firearm attacks, you'll need to pick up a number of feats; Amateur Gunslinger (Quick Clear), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Reload are all mandatory. Again, Magical Lineage is the trait of choice to enhance one of your favored spells, but it isn't as necessary as it is with the Sorcerer build above so you could take something else if you prefer.
Trench Fighter 3 / Spellslinger 5 / Eldritch Knight X this approach focuses much more heavily on firearm attacks rather than channeling spells through its firearm, to the extent that you'll often be selecting evocation as an opposition school. It uses primarily support and utility magic to augment its combat abilities. This makes it an iffy pick if for your concept. Magical Knack is the trait of choice here, to recover caster levels due to all the unfavorable multiclassing. Feat choice would be primarily focused on bolstering your firearm attacks and recovering caster level: Amateur Gunslinger (Quick Clear), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, Favored Prestige Class, and Prestigious Spellcaster are your top priorities before anything else. Gunslinger can be used instead of Trench Fighter if you do not have access to that archetype, but this requires either more unfavorable multiclassing, or you need to give up on gun training (lowering your damage output substantially). Still viable, but much weaker.
Hm. Think I should use a different class for him altogether?
Depends entirely on what you want to do. I'm a fan of all three of the builds I posted above and highly recommend them if that's the sort of character you're interested in. On the other hand, I can understand if you'd like to avoid a complex multiclassed build, which the Spellslinger is kinda forced into. Entirely your call as to what works for you.
Also, I forgot to mention earlier, but Pragmatic Activator and Dangerously Curious are mutually exclusive since they're both magic traits. The Clever Wordplay trait is an alternative to Pragmatic Activator that will work, however.
I don't really want him to focus too much on casting. I liked the Spellslinger as it was the closest thing I could find to someone shooting ice with a gun. Aside from getting the GM's permission to have Dragon's Breath Cartridges deal cold damage instead of fire damage.
That's the problem with turning an existing character into a Pathfinder character. It rarely fits perfectly.
What if you did more Gunslinger than Wizard?
That is one of the builds that Gilarius's Spellslinger guide suggests, Spellslinger 5, Gunslinger 5, EK 10.
The cold gun would start out with just the Snowball spell unless you use Elemental Spell to modify the spells.
Hm. That might work.
Ok, so instead of pure Spellslinger, I could do 2 levels of it and then go into Gunslinger. I'd have Gunsmithing twice, but the Gunslinger does get better feats.
Is your DM using the Technology Guide? It has two guns that shoots ice without magic, the Zero Pistol and the Zero Rifle.
No GM for this. I just enjoy making characters.
I liked the Spellslinger as it was the closest thing I could find to someone shooting ice with a gun. Aside from getting the GM's permission to have Dragon's Breath Cartridges deal cold damage instead of fire damage.
Based on that, I'd say the two best choices are Gunslinger 1 / Eldritch Archer Magus, or Trench Fighter 3 / Spellslinger 5 / Eldritch Knight. Both of these builds do the same thing in different ways: balancing firearm combat with spellcasting aility. Both can also grant their gun the ability to deal ice damage, using the arcane pool or mage bullets class features respectively.
That is one of the builds that Gilarius's Spellslinger guide suggests, Spellslinger 5, Gunslinger 5, EK 10.
Ok, so instead of pure Spellslinger, I could do 2 levels of it and then go into Gunslinger. I'd have Gunsmithing twice, but the Gunslinger does get better feats.
Using the Trench Fighter instead of Gunslinger is preferable. It is an obscure archetype (it comes from an adventure path) so not even table allows it, but it gets you gun training a bit early while also avoiding all the duplicate abilities that Gunslinger/Spellslinger would normally have. You can buy back the abilities you miss (most important is quick clear) with Fighter bonus feats. Importantly, this lets the build come together at a lower level and really shine. Once you've got your three levels of Trench Fighter, go for Eldritch Knight.
A typical build (up to 9th level) would look like this:
Traits: Never Stop Shooting, Magical Knack (Wizard)
1st level (Trench Fighter) Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2nd level (Spellslinger)
3rd level (Trench Fighter) Amateur Gunslinger (Quick Clear), Rapid Reload
4th level (Trench Fighter)
5th level (Spellslinger) Rapid Shot
6th level (Spellslinger)
7th level (Spellslinger) Favored Prestige Class (Eldritch Knight)
8th level (Spellslinger) Craft Magical Arms and Armor
9th level (Eldritch Knight) Prestigious Spellcaster (Eldritch Knight), Deadly Aim
No GM for this. I just enjoy making characters.
Ok, what size gun does Captain Cold usually have, and is he more of a single shot, or spray'n'pray marksman? I don't know, but his gun looks pistol-sized in Injustice.
I'd say that's about the right size. He's definitely able to use it one-handed.
That looks like a fun build.
I was thinking that Captain Cold could be a Conscript with the Combat Gunner martial tradition, focusing on either Barrage (spray'n'pray) or Sniper (single shot). His weapon would be a Zero Pistol, and would need a supply of batteries.
In the end, you would have someone who can do all kinds of trick shots with an ice gun, all without any magic.
I've never seen that stuff before. 3PP?
Trench Fighter replaces Armor Training, but it doesn't give the proficiency needed for firearms, so I'd switch the first two levels to get it from Spellslinger. He's a human, so he'll still be able to take both feats and he'll get another feat when he takes the Fighter level. I can take Rapid Reload then and move Rapid Shot to level 3. That leaves level 5 open. Craft Magic Arms & Armor requires a CL of 5 and Craft Wondrous Items doesn't really fit him. But the Metamagic feat Rime Spell looks good. Any spells with the cold descriptor also entangles creatures if the spell damages them.
I've never seen that stuff before. 3PP?
Just Spheres of Might. Technology Guide is from Paizo itself. If you don't want to use 3PP, you can use Gunslinger (maybe with the Techslinger archetype) and keep the Zero Pistol.
Trench Fighter replaces Armor Training, but it doesn't give the proficiency needed for firearms, so I'd switch the first two levels to get it from Spellslinger
The order is actually for a reason. Two reasons, in fact.
First of all, this takes advantage of the maximized hit die at 1st level. If you choose Wizard as your 1st level class you maximize a d6 hit die, while if you choose fighter you get to maximize a d10. Maximizing the bigger die will get you two additional hit points over choosing to maximize the smaller die. Although the benefit is small, it's a permanent +2 HP that's essentially free just for picking fighter as your 1st level class.
The second reason is simply expedience. Spellslingers are very punishing to play at 1st level due to their low number of spell slots and their very high vulnerability to misfires. Playing through the 1st level as a fighter then multiclassing into spellslinger at 2nd is just much easier to play.
None of these are deal-breakers if you want to swap the order, though.
Craft Magic Arms & Armor requires a CL of 5 and Craft Wondrous Items doesn't really fit him.
This is the most expendable feat on the build, and it's mostly there so you can enhance your own firearm if you can't find a merchant who sells the specific kind you want (I'd imagine you'd want it to have the frost enhancement). If you're confident you can buy the firearm you're looking for, then by all means go for something else.
Rime Spell could work, although you wouldn't be able to use it yet at that level since you wouldn't yet know any area of effect cold spells (it's not worth using with single-target spells). The earliest you could make use of Rime Spell is 12th level, with a Rime Dragon's Breath. It would come into its own at 14th when you could cast Rime Cone of Cold. So this is probably a feat that's better off delayed.
One additional thing to note is that you don't want to use the Arcane Gun ability to boost spell DC with this build. Overloads can't be fixed with quick clear (it fixes misfires, and overloads aren't misfires) so the fastest you can fix an overloaded gun is ten minutes with the mending cantrip. Oh, and cantrips take 1st level spell slots for the Spellslinger, so it's a pain to have to prep it in the first place. Losing your gun for 10 minutes leaves you without your primary weapon for a very long time, and that's a huge risk that simply isn't worthwhile even for a big DC boost.
For opposition schools, I recommend Necromancy, Enchantment, Illusion, and Abjuration. You should eventually take the Opposition Research feat to buy back Abjuration, as it becomes increasingly important at higher levels (defensive spells, dispel magic, etc).
Understood.
Since Trench Fighter is from Reign of Winter, I think a lot of GMs would hesitate to allow it but you could still do that build with plain fighter.
Personally, I would rate having the deeds from Gunslinger higher than the feats from Fighter — especially if you are using one just to get Quick Clear. Pistolero would work just as well, especially since you get the other Firearm proficiencies from Spellslinger.
Rime Spell could work, although you wouldn't be able to use it yet at that level since you wouldn't yet know any area of effect cold spells (it's not worth using with single-target spells). The earliest you could make use of Rime Spell is 12th level, with a Rime Dragon's Breath. It would come into its own at 14th when you could cast Rime Cone of Cold. So this is probably a feat that's better off delayed.
If you take Elemental Spell as well, you could be doing Rime Elemental Burning Hands although Rime Flurry of Snowballs might be better.
1st level (Gunslinger/Pistolero) Point Blank Shot, (Human) Precise Shot
2nd level (Spellslinger)
3rd level (Gunslinger/Pistolero), Rapid Reload
4th level (Gunslinger/Pistolero)
5th level (Spellslinger) Rime (not really useful until next level)
6th level (Spellslinger)
7th level (Spellslinger) Favored Prestige Class (Eldritch Knight)
8th level (Spellslinger) Elemental Spell: Cold
9th level (Eldritch Knight) Prestigious Spellcaster (Eldritch Knight), Rapid Shot
Since many of the Necromancy spells talk of cold, you might want to take a different school as your opposition or take Opposition Research: Necromancy as an Arcane Discovery. Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Sickening, Ray of Exhaustion and Enervation are all effects I could see Captain Cold using.
Since Trench Fighter is from Reign of Winter, I think a lot of GMs would hesitate to allow it but you could still do that build with plain fighter.
If you don't have access to Trench Fighter, you should either do 1 level of Gunslinger or 5 levels of Gunslinger. The Trench Fighter gets a nice happy medium that gets the best of both worlds in terms of spellcasting power and combat power, greatly improving the overall build. If you don't have it, you want to go hard in one direction or the other.
Alternatively, Gunslinger 1 / Eldritch Archer Magus is a very solid middle-ground option.
8th level (Spellslinger) Elemental Spell: Cold
Not really all that useful, since you won't be using direct-damage spells very much, and not for their damage. I suppose it does open up some options for Rime Spell a little earlier, but honestly I think you're better off just waiting for Dragon's Breath, Cone of Cold, and Freezing Sphere.
If you do insist on going for direct damage blasting spells on this sort of build, you're better off going with Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger) / Sorcerer (Primal Water), taking the Blood Havoc bloodline mutation at 1st level. Sorcerer is the only class that can do blasting well without heavy feat investment, leaving your feats available to bolster your firearm attacks. The Mysterious Stranger gets you Cha-to-damage with your firearm attacks, which synergizes well with the Sorcerer. It is somewhat vulnerable to misfires, but it gets Mending as a cantrip and can also spontaneously cast the Jury Rig spell in emergencies (wizards have more trouble with it, as it's one of those spells that you either won't need at all, or you're going to need to cast it like 4 or 5 times in a row).
Interesting options.
Ok, I've gone through the feats and the ones I like the best are these:
1: Point-Blank Shot: +1 Atk and Dam on target within 30 feet.
1: Precise Shot: No penalty for shooting into melee. Requires Point-Blank Shot.
3: Rapid Reload: Reduce time to reload firearm – move action for one-handed firearm, standard action for two-handed firearm.
5: Toughness: +1 HP, +1 after third HD.
5: Craft Magic Arms & Armor: Can create and enhance magic weapons, armor, and shields. Requires CL 5.
7: Rapid Shot: Can make one extra ranged attack at full BAB, but all attacks take -2 Atk. Requires Point-Blank Shot.
9: Dodge: +1 dodge to AC.
Unsure - 10: Elemental Spell: Change a spell’s damage to cold damage. Use one spell level higher.
Unsure - 10: Rime Spell: When a target takes damage from your cold spell, it becomes entangled for rounds equal to original spell level. Only applies to Cold spells, use one spell level higher.
This is assuming a pure Spellslinger rather than a multiclass.
8th level (Spellslinger) Elemental Spell: ColdNot really all that useful, since you won't be using direct-damage spells very much, and not for their damage. I suppose it does open up some options for Rime Spell a little earlier, but honestly I think you're better off just waiting for Dragon's Breath, Cone of Cold, and Freezing Sphere.
Not every choice is about maximum power.
The original poster wanted to build Captain Cold. I was suggesting Elemental Spell (Cold) and Rime Spell because they would fit the theme they were trying to build.
Not every choice is about maximum power.
The original poster wanted to build Captain Cold.
Although to be fair, we seem to have moved away from that: None of the feats that improve using the firearm as a normal weapon make sense for Captain Cold, as to my knowledge his cold gun doesn't fire any bullets - only the cold stuff.
Although to be fair, we seem to have moved away from that: None of the feats that improve using the firearm as a normal weapon make sense for Captain Cold, as to my knowledge his cold gun doesn't fire any bullets - only the cold stuff.Not every choice is about maximum power.
The original poster wanted to build Captain Cold.
Again, there is a technological firearm called a zero pistol. It consumes charges to deal cold damage.
True, Captain Cold's gun shoots only cold. However, a Spellslinger will run out of spells sooner or later. Even with a 16 Int, that's still only 2 first level spells cast. So he'll have to shoot regular bullets a lot of the time and those require ranged feats.
And yes, there's the zero pistol, but there's no way to get that at first level. Too expensive.
Ok, I've gone through the feats and the ones I like the best are these:
...
This is assuming a pure Spellslinger rather than a multiclass.
That feat selection does not match your class selection. Let me be as clear as possible about the fundamental issue with Spellslinger: its arcane gun class feature gives it a very powerful ability to bolster direct-damage spells, and its mage bullets class feature gives it a very powerful ability to bolster its direct firearm attacks, but out of the box it's not particularly good at either. You need to optimize heavily to get it to a usable state. Fortunately for the Spellslinger, there are a lot of options to optimize it. Unfortunately, they're all very feat intensive so you can only do one or the other: firearm attacks, or spells cast through your firearm. If you want to do both effectively, Spellslinger doesn't cut it.
First of all, you seem to be leaning heavily towards bullet attacks with your firearms with that feat selection. You really need the base attack bonus increase of the Eldritch Knight to make that worth investing feats into. You're also lacking two absolutely critical abilities for any build that makes use of firearm attacks: Quick Clear, and Deadly Aim. Without those additional abilities there's little point in even having Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot. The only time it's okay to go without Quick Clear is on Mysterious Stranger builds, and even then it's only because you don't qualify for it and thus don't have a choice.
But firearm attacks aren't your only problem. Your concept calls for cold damage spells, and you really need feats to improve their damage. The arcane gun only improves DC's, which is nice but on its own does not make the spells an effective cornerstone of your strategy. Without any feats or class features to bolster damage, these spells really aren't worth using at all.
If you want to balance firearm attacks with cold spells, I'd suggest Gunslinger (Mysterious Strange) / Sorcerer (Primal Water) or Gunslinger (Siege Mage) / Magus (Eldritch Archer). Spellslinger is great if you're going hard one direction or the other, but falls short if you want to do both on a single build.
I see. I'll keep thinking about it.
There are options.
@Heather 540,
Is retraining something you are allowed in the campaign your building this for?
In the early levels, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Rapid Reload are valuable. As the levels climb, the spells become much more valuable.
If retraining is allowed, perhaps you plan to retrain some or all of these to gain the magical feats that would improve your ability at higher levels? I would imagine the turning point would be around 7th level.
At that point, you could retrain for Elemental Spell, Rime Spell (I keep including these two because they seem obvious choices for Captain Cold), Empowered Spell, and all the other feats that would help make the spells more effective.
The way you would run the character would also shift at that point. You would start off using your spell levels to put Frost on the guns using the Mage Bullets class feature. You would probably also use some of your spells for defense.
At the point where you have retrained, you switch from using the Mage Bullets to using the Arcane Gun to lay down the hurt more directly using your spells and the gun provides the increased DC.
As I recall what little I know of his origins, Snark was a small time crook before he got the gun.
This also has the advantage of helping you through those early levels where the character has so painfully few spells. You rely on the gun during those levels.
I took a closer look at Eldritch Archer. It looks pretty decent. I might use it as the main class instead of Spellslinger. Although I'll still take some levels of Spellslinger for the proficiency and Gunsmith feat.
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I'm toying with a Ratfolk Spellscar Drifter 1/Spellslinger 1/Myrmidarch 9 build for PFS (otherwise Eldritch Archer).
Starting Stats: STR 8 DEX 18 CON 14 INT 16 WIS 10 CHA 10
1 Spellscar Drifter 1) Point-Blank Shot, EWP (Firearms), Gunsmithing, Amateur Gunslinger, Quick-Clear Deed, Order of the Land, Challenge 1/day, Riding Rat Mount (from a boon)
2 Spellslinger 1) Arcane Gun, Mage Bullets
3 Myrmidarch 1) Boon Companion, Spell Combat, Arcane Pool
4 Myrmidarch 2) Spellstrike
5 Myrmidarch 3) Precise Shot, Arcana: Arcane Accuracy
6 Myrmidarch 4) Ranged Spellstrike
7 Myrmidarch 5) Rapid Reload (Dragoon Musket), Deadly Aim
8 Myrmidarch 6) Weapon Training (Firearms) +1/+1
9 Myrmidarch 7) Improved Critical (Dragoon Musket), Fighter Training (ML-3), Medium Armor
10 Myrmidarch 8) Armor Training 1
11 Myrmidarch 9) Weapon Focus (Dragoon Musket), Reach Spellstrike
Traits: Magical Knack, ???????
So the idea is to ride around on the Riding Rat, which has a climb speed. Ride up the wall out of reach and fire down on enemies. Dragoon Musket holds a cartridge of three shots. I think Rapid Reload still changes it to a EDIT: standard action to reload it. I might go Dragoon pistol instead, which would become a move action as nothing says it goes to a standard, despite starting as a full round action.
Up until I get Ranged Spellstrike, I can use Arcane Gun and Spell Combat to cast a spell through the gun and fire a normal shot. I'm thinking about specializing in Ray of Enfeeblement. Snowball would have been the obvious choice before the change to remove the fort save. But Ray of Enfeeblement with the boosted save DC would be different and fun. If there are any other good range touch spells with saves, they'd be an option.
Since I'd mostly use the Spellslinger spells for Mage Bullets, the spell failure for wearing light and eventually medium armor wouldn't matter.
It's a little unclear how Arcane Gun and Ranged Spellstrike combine. If you can use both on the same shot, it's really good. If you have to use them separately, it still helps for rounds when you only have one bullet left in the cartridge and don't want to reload.
Weapon Focus is to set up taking Weapon Specialization at 13, I couldn't work it in any earlier. Extra Grit would also have been nice to add. But at least 1 grit allows fixing a misfire if it happens.
Anyway, Eldritch Archer would be more effective doing essentially the same thing, but it's not PFS legal. Things would come online much earlier, though. I hope this gives you some ideas.
I took a closer look at Eldritch Archer. It looks pretty decent. I might use it as the main class instead of Spellslinger. Although I'll still take some levels of Spellslinger for the proficiency and Gunsmith feat.
Either that or one level of Gunslinger with the Siege Gunner archetype (which makes grit Int-based). It's a great build either way, since the Eldritch Archer synergizes very well with firearm attacks.
Remember: so long as you have Ray of Frost prepared as a cantrip, you never entirely run out of cold spells. You run out of good ones, but you can always do that 1d3 cold damage.