It's time to talk clerics, and it seems something was revealed that I had either missed before or which hadn't been mentioned. That characters get an ability bonus to their key ability score, in this case, Wisdom. It makes perfect sense for someone who's been working most of their lives towards a single purpose that they get this bonus, so I'm all for it, although I do wonder how it'll affect multi-classing.
So you get the expected abilities like domain, channel energy, and divine spellcasting, but a few things have changed. Like before, you get your deity's favored weapon and you get access to domains, though you only get one of them. With the domain you do get special domain powers, spell that are cast with spell points, and which are better than cantrips, though not as strong as your "best spells". - Looking forward to seeing how that'll scale, but I'm guessing we'll know more in the next blog.
The one thing that caught me though was the concept of anathema, which is something I've missed quite a bit in other games. A consequence for violating the tenets of your deity. It's left a lot to player and GM discretion, but it does make sense to include something like this within the game.
There are no real surprises within the spellcasting section, it's pretty much as expected from what was revealed earlier, though it seems that Wisdom (and presumably the other casting ability scores) no longer affect your bonus spells, which should streamline things a bit.
Finally, there are the new cleric feats, such as Communal Healing meaning that you get regain hit points when you cast heal on someone else (quite handy so that you don't have to heal yourself too, at least separately). Also worth thinking about it Turn Undead, which finally makes a semi-return during critically failed saves, instead of being a replacement for damage! That allows it to be much more utilitarian than the current version.
You also get the opportunity to get more domain powers using the feats or allowing your channeled energy to remove certain conditions instead of simply dealing damage.
Some of the new metamagic feats are quite cool as well, I especially like the Reach Spell version, so that you can extend the range of spells by 30 feet. While 30 feet might not seem much on longer-ranged spells, it also affects the touch spells and THAT can be very important, allowing you to use touch spells from a safe distance.
But what do you think about this preview?
If multiclassing works the exact same way (just stacking levels) I will be surprised....
...unless the ability stat bump is tied to Class Level, instead of Character Level, much like how Feats are Tied to class level in 5th edition D&D. Then, taking five levels of a class is equivalent to taking one class to five levels, PLUS you're killing your class "depth" and running around with a bunch of rookie abilities at higher level.
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Class feats were very much needed for the cleric. The examples given seem reasonable.
I'm a bit disappointed that there isn't a stronger influence from the cleric's deity - though I tentatively like the ability to choose how much you invest in your cleric's domains through feats, especially the ability to get up to three domains. It will hopefully make people feel less dissuaded to pick deities that have few good domains, or to pick domains that have poor advanced powers - while also giving the option for people who are excited about domains to invest in them.
The tidbits about metamagic are interesting - looks like they've changed the level cost to an action cost? Wonder if there is any difference between prepared and spontaneous metamagic, or if everyone applies metamagic spontaneously by spending actions. That would give casters a fair amount of flexibility in how they use some spells when combined with having multiple action versions of some spells.
About deities not influencing Cleric class feats- What if the big book o’ deities have each deity an archetype? Then every class could get class feat options for each core deity. Each archetype might have one or two feat choices for divine casters.
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Deities have a pretty big influence, but one side effect of the deities/domains blog being separate to really flesh those out is that not all of those influences have been spelled out yet (at least for a short while!)
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But what do you think about this preview?
This looks a lot like 5E spellcasting. I thought I would hate it when I first read it, but after play its warmed me over. Unlimited scaling cantrips work as a basic attack for people who feel they need to cast spells every action to feel like a caster. Adding domain powers spell point stuff (ugh) gives you some more cool stuff to do each day. Top it off with a limited number of spell slots and there you have it.
I like a resource attrition old school style of play. I thought the 5E cantrips would really interfere with that. What I found was unlimited cantrips actually allowed me to prepare my big guns, my cool stuff, and not have to burn the slots on piddly must haves. It really opened up the part of the game I liked best.
The faults of 5E im hoping PF2 can avoid. Essentially, as my caster levels grew, my lower level slots became less useful like 3E. I often went adventuring days without even using level 1 spells. I think PF2 will avoid this with scaling DCs making up for the limited slots by making spells always viable.
The second biggest issue is that combat is just too damn fast in 5E. Offense is king and casting buff/control/utility just takes a major backseat. That's great for blaster fans, but i'm a more thinking mans caster player. 5E just absolutely killed that part of the game for me. So that is a concern i'm really hoping PF2 will not repeat.
*Please note im not saying PF2 is a carbon copy of 5E. I'm just calling this aspect as I see it, and making comparisons to how I think it will be implemented and the pitfalls of such design.*
If multiclassing works the exact same way (just stacking levels) I will be surprised....
...unless the ability stat bump is tied to Class Level, instead of Character Level, much like how Feats are Tied to class level in 5th edition D&D. Then, taking five levels of a class is equivalent to taking one class to five levels, PLUS you're killing your class "depth" and running around with a bunch of rookie abilities at higher level.
I agree that the class abilities for a cleric seem frontloaded, i.e., a lot of power is given at 1st level. The cleric gets +2 to Wisdom at 1st level. The cleric gains an amount of spell points equal to his or her Wisdom score (the article said "Wisdom" not "Wisdom modifier"), which will fuel the 1st-level domain power quite often. If that is not a typographical error, then a wizard with Wisdom 10 could multiclass to cleric to receive Wisdom 12 and 12 more spell points.
Some other abilities received at 1st level disappeared in exchange. A cleric starts with only one domain rather than two. The article did not mention domain spells, so those might be gone, too. Maybe a first-level cleric no longer will have +2 to Fort save and +2 to Will save. But it seems like a 1st-level PF2 cleric starts off better than a PF1 cleric. I might reduce the build points I give to my players to compensate.
I plan to keep playing the Paizo adventure paths written for PF1, so I will be converting a lot of characters. Most changes that Paizo mentioned will be easy to convert. The NPC cleric has two domains? I claim that one of his cleric class feats purchased the second one. The NPC cleric has too many spells prepared? I cross off the extras. One of the 1st-level spells is Cure Light Wounds? I write Heal in its place. The NPC cleric worships Sarenrae and is bluffing that she is a merchant? I switch which god she worships. Another NPC is a multiclass cleric/rogue? I hope multiclassing works the same way.
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Id be very surprised if you get first level class stat bumps after first character level.
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I agree that the class abilities for a cleric seem frontloaded, i.e., a lot of power is given at 1st level. The cleric gets +2 to Wisdom at 1st level. The cleric gains an amount of spell points equal to his or her Wisdom score (the article said "Wisdom" not "Wisdom modifier"), which will fuel the 1st-level domain power quite often. If that is not a typographical error, then a wizard with Wisdom 10 could multiclass to cleric to receive Wisdom 12 and 12 more spell points.If multiclassing works the exact same way (just stacking levels) I will be surprised....
...unless the ability stat bump is tied to Class Level, instead of Character Level, much like how Feats are Tied to class level in 5th edition D&D. Then, taking five levels of a class is equivalent to taking one class to five levels, PLUS you're killing your class "depth" and running around with a bunch of rookie abilities at higher level.
I remember the paladin from one of the playtest podcasts started with two spell points.
Pretty sure Wisdom is shorthand for Wisdom modifier, rather than Wisdom score. If Logan had meant the ability score, he would have said Wisdom score.
I agree that the class abilities for a cleric seem frontloaded, i.e., a lot of power is given at 1st level. The cleric gets +2 to Wisdom at 1st level. The cleric gains an amount of spell points equal to his or her Wisdom score (the article said "Wisdom" not "Wisdom modifier"), which will fuel the 1st-level domain power quite often. If that is not a typographical error, then a wizard with Wisdom 10 could multiclass to cleric to receive Wisdom 12 and 12 more spell points.I remember the paladin from one of the playtest podcasts started with two spell points.
Pretty sure Wisdom is shorthand for Wisdom modifier, rather than Wisdom score. If Logan had meant the ability score, he would have said Wisdom score.
That would reduce the frontloading significantly. In PF1, multiclassing to cleric would give two domain powers that could each be used 3+Wis times per day (I am accustomed to "Wis" being the abbreviation for Wisdom modifier, not the full word "Wisdom"). In PF2, that would be one domain power that could be used 0+Wis times per day.
The +2 to Wisdom score looks powerful on a class that uses Wisdom. So it would benefit a Druid, Monk, or Ranger who multiclassed to Cleric. But other classes would mostly view it as a +1 to Will save.
However, starting at 1st level with only 2 spell points, as the paladin did, is rough. The 1st-level domain and school powers are supposed to give the spellcaster something useful to do that has the flavor of the domain or school. First-level Healing domain Rebuke Death heals 1d4 hit points. First-level Luck domain Bit of Luck allows a reroll during the next round. First-level Illusion school Blinding Ray blinds or dazzles a target for 1 round. First-level Necromancy school Grave Touch leaves a target shaken upon a touch attack. Fewer uses of flavorful abilities means the spellcasters seem more generic. Fortunately, if PF2 domain powers scale up with level like PF2 cantrips, then the spellcasters will show off their domains later.
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One thing I'm a little worried about is PF2's compatibility with previously published deities. I hope we don't have to wait for new rules to be printed for every deity outside of the core 20 in order to use them.
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I'm pretty unhappy with the Cleric. (I was happy with the Alchemist, though.) I wanted more of a D&D2e Priest vibe. I imagine Paizo just didn't have the courage to break out of the D&D 3.0 Cleric motif, and there are probably a lot of people who are pleased with the direction.
I feel like I'm taking a lot of hits with this change. I don't want to be *that guy*, but I'm starting to build up a lot of distaste for the changes. I play PF for a reason and that reason feels like it is dissipating into the ether. Of course, I like doing those logic puzzles that sometimes show up on tests; normal people don't like things that show up on tests.
I should add: I don't like Starfinder (yes, I played several sessions) and I don't like 4e (yes, I played many sessions, trying to like it, then kicked myself for selling my 3.5 books until I was saved by PF and sold all my 4e stuff).
So far I think the Cleric is the most interesting class. Alchemists and Rogues seems underwhelming and weaker than in PF1 (compared to a well build Alchemist or an Unchained Rogue), Figther has whatever you were expecting of him to be able to do like 5 years ago.
But damn Cleric looks fun. A lots of class abilities at 1, new spells are awesome (overcasting is the best thing ever in a RPG, from a roleplay and a mechanical standpoint), Domains seems interesting, spell points seems easy to use, they can support or cast or go in melee, and anathemas are probably the most clever way to deal with codes.
Yeah I am on board with the Cleric. Finally a class that I think gets really a lots of new toys compared to PF1, and they are interesting and strong ones.
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I'm pretty unhappy with the Cleric. (I was happy with the Alchemist, though.) I wanted more of a D&D2e Priest vibe. I imagine Paizo just didn't have the courage to break out of the D&D 3.0 Cleric motif, and there are probably a lot of people who are pleased with the direction.
I feel like I'm taking a lot of hits with this change. I don't want to be *that guy*, but I'm starting to build up a lot of distaste for the changes. I play PF for a reason and that reason feels like it is dissipating into the ether. Of course, I like doing those logic puzzles that sometimes show up on tests; normal people don't like things that show up on tests.
I should add: I don't like Starfinder (yes, I played several sessions) and I don't like 4e (yes, I played many sessions, trying to like it, then kicked myself for selling my 3.5 books until I was saved by PF and sold all my 4e stuff).
People are already saying that PF2 is just like 4E/5E/13th Age/WOD/Monopoly/anything that isn't Pathfinder/3rd Edition over small changes to terminology. Paizo is fundamentally is still trying to make a second edition of Pathfinder. And in Pathfinder, Clerics are holy warriors with armor and full spell casting, not "White Mages". I doubt that Paizo will fundamentally change an entire class enough to remove their weapons and amor entirely.
However I think that you may partially be getting what you want. You seem to be able to spend your Class feats to obtain 3 different Domains and thier stronger effects. Take those, some feats like Heroic Recovery, Turn Undead, and Channel Succor, and then simply don't wear armor and bump up your Wisdom and Charisma and . . . BOOM! Priest/Ecclisitheurge/White Mage!
Or is there something else that the D&D2 Priest uniquely does that I'm not aware of?
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With archetypes also being a thing from day one, I'd be really surprised to not get some (hopefully better) version of the cloistered cleric in the CRB.
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I feel like I'm taking a lot of hits with this change. I don't want to be *that guy*, but I'm starting to build up a lot of distaste for the changes.
You might one of *those guys*, but don't worry about it. Everyone is looking for something in a game. No game will ever be a perfect for everyone. Focus on finding what you need, and if that's not PF2e, then that's okay in the grand scheme of life, the universe, and everything.
The important thing is to be an advocate for what you want, rather than an advocate against what others want -- if that makes any sense.
Overall, I'm with you. PF2e announcements are more "misses" than "hits" with me. That's disappointing, personally, but I recognize it might be really good for others. Economically speaking, I doubt Paizo will know I'm gone. I wasn't a big customer of theirs. I'd maybe buy 2-3 books a year, but recently decided that I only needed Hero Lab files, so I quit even buying books. Since I don't run in a Golarion setting, I don't even need those updates.
But who knows. Maybe the playtest process will show us something we've not yet seen that really hooks us. You don't have to make a rash judgement, as tempting and compelling as being able to make a decision and move on might be.
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A worry I have is that things will be too tied to Golarion's deities. Designing a pantheon (whether or not it exists in-universe) is one of the funnest parts of world-building. This predictably gives every setting it's own unique gaggle of gods. In Pathfinder 1.0, designing religions is easy; you just pick three or four domains for each god. But if feats and powers and such are more intrinsically tied to specific deities, rather than domains, I'll have to either a) put in the work to design new cleric feats and such for every goddess or god I design, or worse, b) just create clones of Golarion's big folk upstairs.
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A worry I have is that things will be too tied to Golarion's deities.
That's totally something that the advocate of Asmodeus would say
However, starting at 1st level with only 2 spell points, as the paladin did, is rough.
The 2 sp at level 1 is for the Paladin, a tertiary spellcaster. A cleric is a primary SC and gets a boost to Wis at fist level (I am strongly in the camp that assumes this is a character level 1 only). So 3+ Wis Mod makes sense, where as a Paladin probably will have a much higher Str and even Con than Wis (is it Cha? been a while since I listened to the podcast).
Again 2 at level 1 for a front line melee fighter isn't that bad. Cleric is probably going to start with 16+ Wis, so minimum of 6 sp, again at level 1. And that's just for one domain power. That is before the free Heals from channeling and actual spell slots.
A worry I have is that things will be too tied to Golarion's deities.That's totally something that the advocate of Asmodeus would say
It's never made sense that clerics of different gods are so similar. They belong to different societies and cultures and have different customs and traditions.
Clerics of different gods are as, if not more, disparate then paladins and antipaladins! And why is it that say, fighters and barbarians get to be seperate classes, despite doing many of the same things, just because one is a disciplined warrior and the other is an undisciplined warrior? While clerics of CN Gorum have the same spells and class features as clerics of LG Iomae? They even share many of the same domains! I could make a cleric of Iomadae that is statistically identical to a cleric of Gorum, despite them being as close to opposites as two gods of war can get.
I know this is the convention, it's been this way for editions, but reasoning from first principles this convention is just strange. I think we need to do more to differentiate clerics of different deities, and domains alone don't cut it. If we can't have different classes for practitioners of different faiths, we should at least have feats and archetypes that don't translate well across settings.
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A worry I have is that things will be too tied to Golarion's deities.That's totally something that the advocate of Asmodeus would sayIt's never made sense that clerics of different gods are so similar. They belong to different societies and cultures and have different customs and traditions.
Clerics of different gods are as, if not more, disparate then paladins and antipaladins! And why is it that say, fighters and barbarians get to be seperate classes, despite doing many of the same things, just because one is a disciplined warrior and the other is an undisciplined warrior? While clerics of CN Gorum have the same spells and class features as clerics of LG Iomae? They even share many of the same domains! I could make a cleric of Iomadae that is statistically identical to a cleric of Gorum, despite them being as close to opposites as two gods of war can get.
I know this is the convention, it's been this way for editions, but reasoning from first principles this convention is just strange. I think we need to do more to differentiate clerics of different deities, and domains alone don't cut it. If we can't have different classes for practitioners of different faiths, we should at least have feats and archetypes that don't translate well across settings.
Our plan is to have some really cool differences between clerics of each deity while also providing a framework to make it easier than ever for someone to use (or make) their own deities!