| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The only way I know to add reach to a weapon is in the Pact Worlds book. The Star Knight archetype has an option for a Hellknight of the Order of the Pike to temporarily give Reach to a melee weapon as a Standard action, which lasts until you rest. You can use it once per day at 6th, twice at 12th, three times at 18th.
You can use a Solarian Weapon crystal to add damage to your Solar weapon as well as critical hit effects. The staggered critical effect is on Tauon Solarian Weapon Crystals found on page 193 of the Pact Worlds book. In addition it gives your Solar weapon the stun property, allowing you to deal non-lethal or lethal damage, but on the other hand adds less damage than comparable crystals. You can also put weapon fusions on your weapon crystal.
If you do go Solar Weapon, grab the Heavy Armor feat.
I'll note that the Star Knight archetype is probably an inefficient way to get reach. If you really want reach, I would probably suggest go Solar Armor and simply choose a reach weapon, such as a 9th level Advanced Pike. Alternatively, there is a level 8 Thunderhead Glaive on page 41 of the Alien Archive, as well as the level 8.
I personally like the Entangling Fusion a lot on reach weapons. If they charge you, and provoke, you declare you're using it for that AoO, and if you hit, prevent them from finishing the charge.
I would highly recommend purchasing some form of Starknife with either the Called or Returning fusion as throwing weapons use your strength for to-hit and damage, and as advanced melee weapons add your level to the damage as well.
For a character starting at 9th, and probably not getting to 15th level, with Solar Armor, and Pilot Theme, Korasha Lashunta (with Student applied to Piloting) I'd probably do something like:
1st level: Str 14/Dex 14/Con 10/Int 10/Wis 10/Cha 14
5th level: Str 16/Dex 16/Con 12/Int 10/Wis 10/Cha 16
10th level: Str 18/Dex 18/Con 14/Int 10/Wis 10/Cha 18
You could also grab face skills if your party needs them and use the Solarian Sidereal influence to help. 9 ranks Diplomacy + 3 Class + 2 Student + 3 Cha + 1d6 Sidereal = +20.5 on average for diplomacy out of combat.
As you're 9th level, you can buy a +4 Str augmentation and a +2 Dex augmentation. Probably a D-suit III for armor, which would put you at around EAC 26/KAC 27. At 10th it'll jump to EAC 28/KAC 29 even without buying new armor.
For reference, if you went Solar weapon and grabbed Heavy armor, it'd be EAC 27/KAC 29 at 9th, and probably could move the +2 Dex augmentation to Cha instead.
Good feats for a melee Solar Armor Solarian Pilot with reach include:
Advanced Melee weapon focus (+1 to hit for yourself)
Coordinated Shot (+1 to hit for your ranged allies against targets you threaten)
Enhanced Resistance (Physical resistance)
Skill Focus: Piloting
Iron Will or Extra Resolve
At 9th level, that'd be something like +21 piloting, which is only 3 points down from absolute maximum possible in the game.
By starting at 9th, you have a bit more flexibility in choosing your revelations without suffering the unbalanced revelation penalty. I.e. you could take Stellar Rush and Plasma Sheath for your 2nd and 4th level Revelations, and then grab 2 Graviton Revelations like Defy Gravity and Reflection at 6th and 8th, and be balanced in terms of revelations at 9th.
Keep in mind that reach weapons aren't nearly as good in Starfinder as they were in Pathfinder. There is no combat reflexes equivalent in Starfinder, so you will only ever get 1 reaction per round from reach. And as Hiruma noted, you can get a crit effects by using solar weapon crystals and fusions. Honestly reach and crit effects are in my opinion not strong enough reasons to ditch the solar weapon.
If you want a melee solarion you get the solar weapon and use heavy armor proficiency.
If you want to be a ranged solarion you use solar armor. Solar armor is just a flat bonus to KAC/EAC but only applies when use light armor. The bonus it provides kind of makes up for not having heavy armor, but does require you to basically make out your dex for your AC. Which naturally would lead you to being a ranged combatant, instead of a melee combatant.
Given your statements already, you may find that you really should just play a Blitz soldier.
Currently I'm playing Dead Suns as Solarion with a solar weapon, and outside of melee combat I'm struggling to find my niche as the envoy and mechanic of my group of my group do everything better that I could potentially do outside of combat. That however is a different problem than what you're concerned with, and honestly playing as a soldier instead wont improve that.
Blitz solider would probably do a bit more damage overall, but the Solarions revelations will give a lot more versatility that the solider cannot replicate. And the solarion wont be far behind on damage.
Wow thanks for the detailed response.
Since I'd really prefer to have a reach and some sort of crit effect on my weapon I started looking at taking the solar armor instead of solar weapon. However I just read that the bonus I get for solar armor is ONLY on light armor. I'd imagine I'd want to use heavy armor being a melee combatant so it almost seems like I'd be wasting both solar armor/weapon.
9th through 12th (or even 14th) is a weird one for armor. You'd think Heavy Armor would be better, but with sufficient Dex and Solar armor, light will actually be better.
Quick comparison for best armor (assuming armor level = character level), with Dex 14@1 -> 16@5 -> 18@10
Heavy --- Light (+2 Dex personal augmentation) --- Light (+4 Dex personal augmentation)
9th: EAC 27/KAC 29 --- EAC 26/KAC 27 --- EAC 27/KAC 28
10th: EAC 27/KAC 30 --- EAC 29/KAC 31 --- EAC 30/KAC 31
11th: EAC 30/KAC 32 --- EAC 30/KAC 32 --- EAC 30/KAC 32
12th: EAC 31/KAC 32 --- EAC 32/KAC 32 --- EAC 33/KAC 33
Note the light armor will be faster (less speed penalty) and less armor check penalty. It saves you a feat or a multiclass (which means not actually having your Zenith revelations at 9th). And will include selectable Fire or Cold resistance 5 or 10 (at 10th and higher) for free.
So basically at 9th level you'll be slightly lower in AC in light armor, but at 10th-12th you'll either be identical or slightly higher AC.
To be honest, in this level range, I'd personally go Solar Armor.
Is there anywhere online where you can see the 'pact worlds' information like paizo shows the Pathfinder SRD or do you have to buy the book that to use/see it?
You could always just buy the PDF, which is 1/4th the price of the book. I don't know offhand, as I just use my own copy.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on which of the front liners, soldier or solarian you believe is more powerful or more versatile or plainly more fun to play?
thanks again man!
Here's the question: What are you trying to do and what roles in the party are you trying to cover?
1) I see you taking the Pilot theme. Are you replacing the party's pilot? This suggests Student and a skill focus in Piloting, while keeping Dex up, which is another reason to go light armor. A non-Lashunta melee Soldier is going to be slightly worse at this than a Solarian Lashunta student of piloting.
2) The other members of the party are a Technomancer, Soldier, Mechanic, and Mystic. None of these sound charisma based, and I'm wondering if they're missing a party face (I.e. someone good at Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate). If they need a face or even a sub-set of those skills, a Solarian with decent charisma, student, and Sidereal influence can do an excellent job. A Soldier normally wouldn't do this role as well as a Solarian, because they tend to not pump charisma.
3) Are any of your party members also melee? Is the Mechanic Exocortex or Drone. How is the drone setup (combat, melee, ranged, hover, stealth?). If you have a melee buddy, it means you don't have to be quite as tanky and by flanking, you don't need to be quite as accurate. A Vesk Guard Soldier works better in this situation, as they can be crazy tanky and provide some of that tankiness to others (via feats and the Guard fighting style)
4) Does your party have a reliable source of making the enemy flat-footed. No Operative or Envoy means the party is missing out on the usual sources of accuracy for the entire party. Does the Soldier have the Sonic Resonance gear boost (sonic damage makes enemies flat footed for the entire party) and using appropriate weapons and/or fusions (i.e. thundering) to deal sonic damage? If not, this would suggest pumping bluff, going down the Feint line of feats, and combining with Stellar Rush and/or Solar Acceleration. Or making a Soldier with the Sonic resonance gear boost and some sonic melee weapons or fusion.
Here's one interesting Solarian build if your party does in fact lack a reliable source of flat footed:
9th level Ace Pilot Korasha Lashunta
Student: Piloting and Bluff
Str 16+4/Dex 16+2/Con 12/Int 10/Wis 10/Cha 16
Skill Adept: Piloting and Bluff
Sidereal Influence: Diplomacy and Bluff
Piloting +19/Bluff +20 to +23 (only +20 in combat) /Diplomacy +16 to +21 /Acrobatics +16
Feats: 1) Advanced Melee Weapon Focus
3) Improved Feint
5) Enhanced Resistance
7) Skill Focus: Bluff
9) Greater Feint
Your feint is against DC 15+1.5xCR or for 9th level enemies, DC 28. You succeed 65% of the time against equal level enemies, 40% of the time versus CR+3 bosses, and it lasts effectively 2 rounds for yourself. Since it lasts until the end of your next turn, that particular opponent doesn't get AoOs, allowing you to move in on large enemies with less risk - or let allies get away.
It combos well with Stellar Rush (standard action charge) and Solar Acceleration (standard action full attack once every 3 rounds). Adding what amounts to +2 to hit times 5 characters is like adding an extra half character in terms of damage output, assuming base 50/50 hit odds. I.e. 5*0.5 = 2.5 characters worth of damage actually hits. Versus 5*0.6 = 3.0 characters worth of damage actually hits.
It makes you a very smooth talker outside of combat as well. Its not necessarily the best combat build, but it is different.
The earlier build I mentioned (Weapon Focus, Coordinated Shot, Enhanced Resistance, Skill Focus: Pilot, then something else) is probably better, as +1 to hit for your ranged allies reliably without an action cost is easier to use. It also frees up Student to go to Diplomacy, providing a +18 to +23 for that instead. It also makes you a really, really good pilot if that is what your team needs. And you can still use Sidereal Influence
A more defensive build using a non-reach weapon might be:
Weapon Focus, Close Combat (from Pact Worlds), Enhanced Resistance, Step up and Step Up and Strike.
Other ideas include using radiation to make enemies sickened, reducing their saving throws and making them more likely to suffer spells your technomancer and mystic are slinging. Stellar Rush + Plasma Sheath is a classic. Stellar Rush + Dark matter also works, which can free up a feat used on Enhanced Resistance.
A Blitz Primary/Guard Secondary Soldier in heavy armor is likely to have better AC and initiative. But their actions are basically attack, charge, and heal their own stamina. They're really good at those actions, and might have some rider effects, but basically those are their default choices in combat. Some feat lines help with this. Things like Step Up and Strike, Bodyguard, Barricade.
Solarians actions are like: Pick offense (+damage) or defense (+ref save) for free, Activate a buff (Plasma sheath or Dark Matter) as a move, Stellar Rush. Next turn Feint and standard attack. Third turn, standard action Supernova dealing 10d6+2 damage (DC 17) in an area 35 feet across and feint your next target. Or if you're in Graviton mode move and then activate a 30 foot cone of AoE Slow (aka AoE Staggered). Fourth turn, buff again, Stellar rush next target (or just standard attack).
Depending on your ability choices and which Stellar mode your in, you can have a wider selection of things to do which are not just "I attack". Also, Zenith powers are like casting good technomancer/mystic spells every 3 turns. Whether they are useful depends on circumstances.
I will reiterate my opinion that I think that trying to play a melee Solarion using solar armor instead of using solar weapon with heavy armor is a misstep.
Either you AC or your melee capabilities will suffer (in the long run).
In general as a melee solarion you will want to maximize your strength, followed by your charisma. Dex would typically be your third consideration, as it mostly only affects your AC and reflex saves. However, if you go this way you will have lower AC than if you used heavy armor.
I will reiterate my opinion that I think that trying to play a melee Solarion using solar armor instead of using solar weapon with heavy armor is a misstep.
Either you AC or your melee capabilities will suffer (in the long run).
Except Solar Weapon doesn't give you reach, which is what Crexis asked for.
Yes, the stat distribution I suggested is going to have 2 points less Strength (18+4=22 vs 20+4=24) than absolute maximum possible in the game at 9th-12th level. Yes, its going to miss 1 in 20 attack rolls that would have otherwise hit and do approximately 5-15% less sustained damage in melee depending on enemy EAC/KAC. 90% of literally the highest possible damage per round (under reasonable circumstances) in the game is still plenty good enough for a campaign.
By starting with 14 Dex, and buying a +2 Dex augmentation, his AC will keep up with heavy armor even though he's just wearing light. And also provide either Fire or Cold Resistance 5 or 10 on top of that. So while his damage output is down 10%, his AC is just fine, per the math I showed earlier. He's down 1 EAC and 2 KAC at 9th, then up 2 EAC and 1 KAC at 10th. Plus he doesn't have to spend a feat on heavy armor.
In general as a melee solarion you will want to maximize your strength, followed by your charisma. Dex would typically be your third consideration, as it mostly only affects your AC and reflex saves. However, if you go this way you will have lower AC than if you used heavy armor.
Except he also wants to be a pilot. You can't put Dexterity 3rd in that case. Lowest starting Dex I could consider for a Pilot is 14 and I'd put at least your 2nd personal augmentation into it.
Yea our party is lacking an envoy or operative so I may take improved feint and/or greater feint. I've never used them before - in this game or in pathfinder. In pathfinder it seemed more of a pure rogue feat. Since I will only be able to choose 5 feats at level 9 - do you believe these 2 are better to take over 'step up' + 'step up and strike' with most likely a reach weapon?
Hard to say. I haven't actually used the Feint line in actual play in Starfinder either. Theorycrafting suggests that a Lashunta with student, skill focus, and some charisma should have decent odds of landing it. +2 to hit for a move action 100% of the time is very good (i.e. the Envoy's 'Get em). +2 to hit for a move action and preventing AoOs 50% of the time is good, but maybe not very good.
Step Up and Step Up and Strike are great for keeping ranged enemies adjacent to you or suffering an AoO. But so is just having a reach weapon. Also remember, you are limited to a single reaction or AoO per turn.
Imagine 2 cases:
No reach, you have step up and strike.
You are adjacent to a ranged enemy.
They can:
1) Attack you in melee
2) Simply walk away and take an AoO and then shoot you.
Guarded Stepping in that case gets them nothing as they'll still take an AoO so might as well just use a normal move action and get more distance.
You have reach, but no feats.
You are adjacent to a ranged enemy.
They can
1) Attack you in melee
2) Simply walk away and take an AoO and then shoot you
3) Guarded Step twice and not attack at all. If they only guarded step once, they are still in your reach melee range so can't ranged attack without provoking. And you can still full attack the following turn.
There is still some benefit to step up and strike for a reach weapon user, but it overlaps. Also, Step up and strike is not going to trigger every fight. It can be played around. And some enemies simply don't care (melee monster decides to attack you the entire fight).
Greater Feint I feel you'll wind up trying to use alot more. It has nice synergy with Stellar Rush. However, some fights your going to roll poorly and it'll never work, and some fights you'll roll well and the enemy will basically be flat-footed the entire fight.
As a melee Solarian combatant should I take STR or CHA as my main ability score?
Well Charisma is your Key ability score for Resolve and Saving throw DCs, while Strength determines how likely you are to hit and deal damage. Typically for a melee focused build, Strength receives priority.
I'm still a little confused about how stellar revelations work. At the beginning of combat I choose to attune to either gravitons or photons. Is this a free action? Next round, I can continue to 'attune' myself towards the one I chose in round 1 or become unattuned.
At the start of each of your turns, as long as you are conscious, you must either choose to become unattuned or stay attuned to the same mode. Or if you are unattuned, pick photon, gravition, or unattuned. Its not even a free action, its just something that happens. Even if you normally can't take any action, you still are attuning and must pick one.
So lets take an example where you lost initiative:
Round 1: Enemies go first, attack you. You have no benefit from a mode while they attack you as you haven't had a chance to pick a mode.
Now its your turn on Round one and pick Photon mode. You gain 1 point of attunement, and now get +2 damage to all damage rolls (assuming 9th level). You activate Plasma Sheath and attack. Plasma Sheath stays on until you leave Photon mode.
Round 2: Enemies go again. You choose to stay attuned, and now have 2 attunement points. You attack.
Round 3: Enemies go again. You choose to stay attuned, and now have 3 attunement points and are fully attuned. As your standard action you could choose Supernova. You deal 10d6+2 damage out 15 feet. Note you gain the benefit of Photon mode to your damage rolls. Immediately after you've finished using that Zenith revelation (i.e. after dealing damage), you are now unattuned for the rest of your turn and until the beginning of your next turn. You don't gain any mode benefits during this time. You are not Photon attuned so Plasma Sheath turns off.
Round 4: Enemies go again. Say they provoke an AoO, you hit, but don't get the photon mode +2 damage because you are still unattuned. On your turn, you choose to become Photon attuned and now have 1 point of attunement. You again decide to spend a move action to activate Plasma Sheath, and then attack.
Note you don't have to use a Zenith revelation as soon as you are fully attuned. You can simply stay fully attuned (it doesn't go any higher than 3 points) for a number of rounds before using it. But then you're unattuned again immediately after using the Zenith revelation.
Black Hole and Supernova are effectively Zenith Revelations and drop you to unattuned after use. All other Stellar Revelations like Stellar Rush or Plasma Sheath have no affect on your attunement. Using them won't make it take any longer to get to full attunement. They simply have extra benefits if you are attuned to the corresponding mode.
The two other Zenith revelations you'll choose at 9th level will also drop you to unattuned immediately after using them, just like Black Hole or Supernova.
If you want more reading on ideas about Solarians, there's HWalsh's Melee Solarian Guide, as well as my General Solarian Guide, although neither has really been updated for the Alien Archive or the Pact World books.
|
Uhhhh, guys? There is a weapon fusion that gives a weapon reach for the first attack a round. It’s the. . . Chain infusion? I want to say. From dead suns part 1. Not ideal, I know, as it doesn’t let you full attack at reach, but it works. Just as an FYI, you can slap that on a Solarian Weapon crystal and you are off to the races.
Uhhhh, guys? There is a weapon fusion that gives a weapon reach for the first attack a round. It’s the. . . Chain infusion? I want to say. From dead suns part 1. Not ideal, I know, as it doesn’t let you full attack at reach, but it works. Just as an FYI, you can slap that on a Solarian Weapon crystal and you are off to the races.
Thanks for the info. I don't actually have the Deadsuns AP as I was hoping to be a player in it at some point.
Does it work with AoOs and Coordinated Shot? I'm wondering if it increases the area you threaten until you use it or just let you attack once at 10 feet. There's a big difference between the two. Getting a single attack when it is your turn at 10 feet distance is different from having an area 25 feet across where you threaten an AoO and provide +1 to hit for ranged allies.
On the topic of weapon fusions, I generally suggest getting the Entangling fusion on a reach weapon, as you can possibly prevent a medium or smaller enemy's charge once per day. Actually, at 9th level, it might even be worthwhile to have a backup Tactical Pike with entangling fusion (only 475+360=835 credits) after you've used it on your primary weapon. Use it for an AoO and then drop it and replace it with your main weapon. Its effectively a once a day magic item that inflicts -2 to AC, attack, reflex saves plus slightly lower attacks damage if it hits. Sure they can get rid of it on their next turn if they can make the checks, but that is effectively staggering them for 1 round as well by taking their move action to do so.
|
|
Thanks for the info. I don't actually have the Deadsuns AP as I was hoping to be a player in it at some point.
Does it work with AoOs and Coordinated Shot? I'm wondering if it increases the area you threaten until you use it or just let you attack once at 10 feet. There's a big difference between the two. Getting a single attack when it is your turn at 10 feet distance is different from having an area 25 feet across where you threaten an AoO and provide +1 to hit for ranged allies.
On the topic of weapon fusions, I generally suggest getting the Entangling fusion on a reach weapon, as you can possibly prevent a medium or smaller enemy's charge once per day. Actually, at 9th level, it might even be worthwhile to have a backup Tactical Pike with entangling fusion (only 475+360=835 credits) after you've used it on your primary weapon. Use it for an AoO and then drop it and replace it with your main weapon. Its effectively a once a day magic item that inflicts -2 to AC, attack, reflex saves plus slightly lower attacks damage if it hits. Sure they can get rid of it on their next turn if they can make the checks, but that is effectively staggering them for 1 round as well by taking their move action to do so.
So it is a level 6 fusion, and it Gives your weapon the reach property for the first attack of every round, then looses that quality for the rest of the turn. So I guess it would give you reach for an AoO, but if you took that attack, you wouldn’t have reach on your turn?
So it is a level 6 fusion, and it Gives your weapon the reach property for the first attack of every round, then looses that quality for the rest of the turn. So I guess it would give you reach for an AoO, but if you took that attack, you wouldn’t have reach on your turn?
So it sounds like as long as you didn't attack on the previous turn you could take the AoO. But if you did attack on the previous turn, the AoO is definitely not your first attack of the round and thus no reach.
It also sounds like it doesn't give the reach property while you are not attacking, implying you don't threaten in the first place, except when attacking.
Sounds pretty bad to be honest for a fusion. Its got some niche applications on offense against enemies with exactly 10 foot reach but I don't see it coming into play all that often to be honest. Half the point of melee is punish an enemy for moving away with an AoO, but this doesn't provide that at all. Given you can't use it in a full attack anyways, in many situations you could always just guarded step and attack.
If the enemy is flat footed, you can just walk up to the enemy with suffering AoOs as well.
I suppose it depends why Crexis wants reach.
|
|
Yeah, looking at it again, it doesn't look great, but I suppose that's the way it goes.
BTW, the first Dead Suns AP has some great stuff in it, like a battlaxe finally (Fifth level weapon, d8 damage, 1 bulk, Analog and wounding property) and a weapon fusion that adds the burn critical effect.
The second book adds disrupter rifles that do 1d20 acid damage.
Except Solar Weapon doesn't give you reach, which is what Crexis asked for.I will reiterate my opinion that I think that trying to play a melee Solarion using solar armor instead of using solar weapon with heavy armor is a misstep.
Either you AC or your melee capabilities will suffer (in the long run).
Right, and what I'm saying is that reach isn't nearly as useful as what Crexis thinks it probably is. In Pathfinder reach was very useful. You picked up a reach weapon, you picked up combat reflexes, and you control the movement and flow of enemies around you. In Starfinder combat maneuvers are incredibly unreliable (it's KAC + 8, and KAC is already 2 points above EAC on average). So you can't really trip them successfully or move them around the battlefield. Plus you only get 1 reaction a round, so you can only control 1 enemy. That second guy who "tries" to get by you wont ever have a problem. And the reactions also power other abilities, like Step Up and Step Up and Strike.
Yes, the stat distribution I suggested is going to have 2 points less Strength (18+4=22 vs 20+4=24) than absolute maximum possible in the game at 9th-12th level. Yes, its going to miss 1 in 20 attack rolls that would have otherwise hit and do approximately 5-15% less sustained damage in melee depending on enemy EAC/KAC. 90% of literally the highest possible damage per round (under reasonable circumstances) in the game is still plenty good enough for a campaign.
In general as a melee solarion you will want to maximize your strength, followed by your charisma. Dex would typically be your third consideration, as it mostly only affects your AC and reflex saves. However, if you go this way you will have lower AC than if you used heavy armor.Except he also wants to be a pilot.
Yes, and again I'm advising him that's is not a great thing to build towards as a melee character. If anyone else has already invested skill ranks into piloting, he's probably better off doing something else.
Either that, or simply switch to being a soldier where you can freely invest in str and dex (without the need for charsima) and then pretty much the whole issue is avoidable.
Wow thanks for the discussion guys. I just read from some guide recommending to be a pilot, I'm not married to it. Looks like I'll probably just be a gunner. I don't even know how the starship combat rules even work at this point (lol).
I highly recommend you find out from the GM and other players what Starship roles are and are not covered given they just lost a player. Solarians make fine gunners without needing to take the Piloting skill (they just use BAB + Dex instead of Piloting Ranks + Dex). Make sure the party does in fact have a dedicated pilot. If they already have a good pilot, don't take the Ace Pilot theme as it'll do very little for you.
To be honest, the +1 ability score from the themes is only useful for qualifying for feats a little bit earlier. If you're not planning on any feats that use it, then it doesn't really matter.
Some themes that might be interesting in Pact Worlds include Space Pirate (+1 to Bluff, roll twice once per day Stealth), Death-touched (+1 perception, +1 to a bunch of saves, stacking cold resist), Dream Prophet (+1 Mysticism, Augury once per day, reroll saves twice per day).
I'm still unsure about going melee solarian using solar weapon or light armor/solar armor. You've both made great points. BUT if Haruma's calculations are correct then going solar armor will give me around the same AC as going solar weapon with heavy armor feat. Which makes me want to want to lean his way and go with the light armor/solar armor with a weapon of my choice(crit effect/possibly reach/something else which I haven't uncovered yet).
If you go Solar Weapon/Heavy Armor you'll generally be doing more damage, as you can afford to start with Str 18/Dex 12/Wis 8/Cha 14. By 10th thats Str 20/Dex 16/Con 12/Wis 10/Cha 18, with augmentations going to Str and Cha. Such a build is literally the highest melee damage (and damage in general) you can get in the game in that level range.
Solar Armor is more flexible in that it frees up a feat, frees up an armor upgrade (Thermal Capacitors), opens options for a couple augmentations (Climbing Suckers and Chameleon Skin), leaves your speed higher, frees up 2 stat points to go into another stat (i.e. Con, Int or Wis), and you can change up melee weapons with those that you find/buy without feeling guilty (nothing prevents a Solar Weapon Solarian from using a Pike or a taclash). But you are reducing your damage output by about 10% and your offensive save DCs and resolve by 1, by starting with Str 14/Dex 14/Con 10/Int 10/Wis 10/Cha 14 and using personal augmentations of Str and Dex.
Anyways, I suggest building a character that looks fun to play to you. Pick a theme for what is likely going to be fun roleplay for yourself and not just for its mechanical effects.
Good luck with the character.
|
|
I'm still unsure about going melee solarian using solar weapon or light armor/solar armor. You've both made great points. BUT if Haruma's calculations are correct then going solar armor will give me around the same AC as going solar weapon with heavy armor feat. Which makes me want to want to lean his way and go with the light armor/solar armor with a weapon of my choice(crit effect/possibly reach/something else which I haven't uncovered yet).
Going Solar armor will not give you the same AC as heavy armor. It will still leave you down about 2/3 AC vs. most attacks through your career, and never gets equal to or better (except at the beginning.)
Assuming you have the same build otherwise (same Dex, etc.) the best light armor in the game at levels 1/5/10/15/20 goes like this:
Level 1 Eac:+1, KAC+2
Level 5 Eac:+5, KAC+6
Level 10 Eac:+12, KAC+14
Level 15 Eac:+18, KAC+19
Level 20 Eac:+21, KAC+23
Heavy armor is:
Level 1 Eac:+2, KAC+5
Level 5 Eac:+8, KAC+10
Level 10 Eac:+15, KAC+18
Level 15 Eac:+21, KAC+22
Level 20 Eac:+25, KAC+28
As you can see, level 1 is still 2 better KAC (same EAC) as lvl 1 light with solarian armor, but then heavy armor is flat out better. Level 5 it is 2/3 better, level 10 it's 1/2 better, level 15 it is 1/1 better, and level 20 it is 2/3 better
As you can see, level 1 is still 2 better KAC (same EAC) as lvl 1 light with solarian armor, but then heavy armor is flat out better. Level 5 it is 2/3 better, level 10 it's 1/2 better, level 15 it is 1/1 better, and level 20 it is 2/3 better
I'll point out you are ignoring the maximum Dex modifiers of the armors. If you've got 18+2=20 Dex at level 10, that heavy armor doesn't benefit from Dex over 14 (+2). The Light armor benefits from the full 20 (+5).
We've also been discussing two different stat distributions, or at least I think we have, I may be assuming incorrect stats for the build Claxon is suggesting.
I've been advocating a Str 14/Dex 14/Cha 14 build with augmentations going in order to Str then Dex, while the more traditional heavy armor Solarian goes like Str 18/Dex 12/Wis 8/Cha 14 or Str 16/Dex 12/Wis 8/Cha 16, and puts their augmentations in Strength and Charisma.
Although I'll readily admit a 9th level Vesk Blitz primary/Guard secondary Soldier in heavy armor will blow any of these Solarian builds away in terms of AC. Claxon's suggestion of a Blitz Soldier is not a bad one if you're aiming to be a pure melee tank.
The Solarian build I'm suggesting does give up a +1 to hit and +1 damage by reducing the the strength down by effectively 2 stat points at levels 5 and above. On the other hand, at level 10 my proposed build has +14 stat modifiers. The starting Str 18 build has +13 (assuming they bump strength twice 18->19->20). Thats potentially extra stamina/+1 fort save, an extra skill, or +1 will saves.
So at 10th, you're looking at a Solar Armor Solarian with 20 total Dex:
EAC= +12 Base + 2 Solar Armor + 5 Dex = +19
KAC= +14 Base + 2 Solar Armor + 5 Dex = +21
The Heavy armor with presumably 16 Dex:
EAC = +15 Base + 2 Dex = +17
KAC = +18 Base + 2 Dex = +20
Even at 1st its not so bad for 14 Dex in light armor:
EAC=+1 Base + 1 Solar Armor + 2 Dex = +4
KAC=+2 Base + 1 Solar Armor + 2 Dex = +5
Compare to the 1st level heavy armor you picked:
EAC=+2 Base + 0 Dex = +2
KAC=+5 Base + 0 Dex = +5
The better one is actually the nearly twice as expensive Ring Wear (460 vs 250):
EAC=+2 Base + 1 Dex = +3
KAC=+4 Base + 1 Dex = +5
At 1st level, the heavy armor build had to take Heavy Armor Proficiency for its feat. The Light armor build can take Weapon Focus: Advanced Melee, closing the to-hit gap at levels 1-2. The Light armor build is 5-10 feet faster (equivalent to a feat or dipping Blitz Soldier for the speed bonus). The light armor build has no penalty to skills, the heavy armor has a -2 to -3 penalty to things like Athletics, Acrobatics, Stealth.
Certainly you're giving stuff up (raw damage output) and +1 save DC/resolve/charisma skills after 7th level, but depending on what you want to do, some of the other perks can be pretty nice. Certainly +2 to hit on starship gunnery can be handy sometimes.
I'll give you a real level 2 example that occurred in play that required light armor. My Human Solarian was providing a distraction by basically orating to a crowd (Diplomacy check), while semi-stealthy allies (high Dex Operative, Soldier in light armor, Envoy in light armor) were sneaking up on the big bad guy by going up stairs to a second floor. The Big Bad Guy (BBG) was by a window looking out at the crowd.
Combat breaks out on their upper story (40 feet up). My Solarian proceeds to apologize to the crowd ("Excuse me for one moment"), turns around, walks 40 feet (has the fleet feat) to the wall while drawing out his Tactical Pike, Stellar Rushes 40 feet straight up the wall to the window (using Climbing Suckers) and attacks the window to break it. The BBG is now in threatening range of the Pike.
Fight continues, boss leaps out window (jump jets I think?) to the ground below. Solarian proceeds to Stellar Rush 35 feet down the wall, attacks at a distance of 10 feet above the enemy, then uses the remaining move action to get off the wall and position himself between the BBG and the escape routes with with a 25 foot wide area of AoOs. Guarded steps are too slow to get away, and using the Withdraw action doesn't prevent the AoO as he leaves the second square. His 40 feet of speed isn't enough to outpace my 40 feet of speed, even through the difficult terrain of the crowd.
A Heavy Armor Solarian at level 2 would basically have sat that fight out, trying to go up the stairs after fighting breaks out, then back down the stairs after the Boss decides to run. Admittedly this isn't a typical fight. But I thought it was kinda awesome.
|
|
As you can see, level 1 is still 2 better KAC (same EAC) as lvl 1 light with solarian armor, but then heavy armor is flat out better. Level 5 it is 2/3 better, level 10 it's 1/2 better, level 15 it is 1/1 better, and level 20 it is 2/3 betterI'll point out you are ignoring the maximum Dex modifiers of the armors. If you've got 18+2=20 Dex at level 10, that heavy armor doesn't benefit from Dex over 14 (+2). The Light armor benefits from the full 20 (+5).
See, that's the issue though. If you go full dex, then you will have a lousy to-hit and damage, and if you go full dex with an operative weapon, then your to-hit will be okay but your damage will be even worse (with only 1/2 level to damage.) And if you aren't going full dex, then max dex doesn't really matter.
In my dead suns campaign, my soldier started with 14 dex. Only once, very briefly when he hit level 5, did the max dex of his armor interfere with his 16 dex before I upgraded to Vesk Overplate.
Solarians are already Super MAD, as they need charisma for their resolve, Con to stay up, and Str to hit. Getting 20 dex for a melee solarian just isn't really viable, especially not by level 5. And the max dex of heavy armor upgrades fast enough that you can generally get the full benefit of dex from heavy armors around your level if your dex is a secondary or tertiary stat.
See, that's the issue though. If you go full dex, then you will have a lousy to-hit and damage, and if you go full dex with an operative weapon, then your to-hit will be okay but your damage will be even worse (with only 1/2 level to damage.) And if you aren't going full dex, then max dex doesn't really matter.
I feel a Dex difference of 16 versus 20 versus 24 does matter. I'm not proposing full Dex. Full Dex in my head is starting 18, getting the +4 Dex upgrade at 7th, and sitting at 24 Dex at level 10.
I'm proposing medium Dex. Starting 14 Dex and add a +2 augmentation at 7th, ending up at 20 Dex at level 10. Such a build also has 22 Str and 18 Cha.
Low Dex is the minimum to take advantage of heavy armor. That is like starting 12 Dex, then bumping to 16 at 10, with no augmentation.
At 10th the two stat lines I think we're arguing over are:
Str 22/Dex 20/Con 14/Int 10/Wis 10/Cha 18
and
Str 24/Dex 16/Con 12/Int 10/Wis 10/Cha 20
My proposal is -2 Str/+4 Dex/+2 Con/-2 Cha compared to the heavy armor build.
As far as I can tell, you're saying anything less than the absolute maximum possible strength in the game is non-viable. Which I don't believe.
I will also note that Flashing Strikes is effectively +1 to hit when full attacking, so a Soldier with maximum Strength has the same odds of hitting when full attacking as my proposed build.
Would you say a maximum Strength Soldier has lousy to-hit when full attacking?
Solarians are already Super MAD, as they need charisma for their resolve, Con to stay up, and Str to hit. Getting 20 dex for a melee solarian just isn't really viable, especially not by level 5.
This thread is mostly aimed at suggested builds for a Solarian starting at level 9. So in some sense, how good it is at exactly 5th level doesn't matter.
But in the interest of discussion, I'm not proposing 20 Dex by 5th level. I'm proposing:
1st Str 14/Dex 14/Con 10/Int 10/Wis 10/Cha 14 (EAC/KAC 13/14 vs 13/15, 0/-1 difference in Armor)
3rd Str 16/Dex 14/Con 10/Int 10/Wis 10/Cha 14 (16/17 vs 16/19, 0/-2)
5th Str 18/Dex 16/Con 12/Int 10/Wis 10/Cha 16 (19/20 vs 20/22, -1/-2)
7th Str 20/Dex 18/Con 12/Int 10/Wis 10/Cha 16 (23/24 vs 22/25, +1/-1)
10th Str 22/Dex 20/Con 14/Int 10/Wis 10/Cha 18 (29/31 vs 27/30, +2/+1)
14th Str 24/Dex 22/Con 14/Int 10/Wis 10/Cha 20 (35/36 vs 33/35, +2/+1)
15th Str 25/Dex 23/Con 16/Int 10/Wis 10/Cha 21 (36/36 vs 35/36, +1/+0)
20th Str 26/Dex 24/Con 18/Int 10/Wis 10/Cha 22 (41/41 vs 41/42, +0/-1)
So certainly you're going to be worse off in armor at the lower levels (i.e. 1-6 or so). But in the mid to high levels (10-15) you're ahead. Which is right around where Crexis is going to start playing.
In addition, starting at 5th you get free Fire or Cold resist 5. The equivalent equipment takes up an armor upgrade slot and costs 3,600 credits, which is like an entire level in armor costs (i.e. buy a 9th level armor instead of 8th). Similarly, at 10th level, you get Fire or Cold resist 10, which is roughly equivalent to a level 12 armor upgrade that costs 36,250 credits. That many credits is like the cost difference between a level 12 and level 14 armor.
As we said, this does come at the cost of 5-15% off the maximum possible melee damage per round in the entire game. I humbly submit that 10% off the absolute most in the entire game is still plenty good enough. And you're exchanging that damage for other benefits as well. An extra feat. More movement. You can take equipment options which don't work in heavy armor. +1 or +2 to starship gunnery.
For example you can make a solid stealth Solarian at level 10 because of Sidereal influence and Stealth Warp that can hang with any Ghost Operative. +27+1d6 (30.5 avg) at 10th outside of combat. Compare to a 10th level Ghost with +26 to stealth. +28 if they're a Lashunta Operative.
And the max dex of heavy armor upgrades fast enough that you can generally get the full benefit of dex from heavy armors around your level if your dex is a secondary or tertiary stat.
Depends on how hard you push your secondary stat. Str 22/Dex 20/Cha 18 clearly has Dex as the secondary stat at level 10, yet is 3 more modifier points than you can use in the level 10 heavy armor.
I think 10 absolute percent is a big deal, is because general speaking you're not going to ever hit your enemy easily. I can't find the enemy AC per level guide, but remember that at best you'd have 26 strength with 20 BAB for a +28 to hit. But enemy's AC is going to be 35 EAC or 37 KAC.
That means for a completely optimized character (let's include weapon focus) you have a +29 vs a 37. That gives you a 60% chance to hit, when completely optimized. Now you're talking about only hitting 50% of the time.
I just don't like those numbers.
I think 10 absolute percent is a big deal, is because general speaking you're not going to ever hit your enemy easily. I can't find the enemy AC per level guide, but remember that at best you'd have 26 strength with 20 BAB for a +28 to hit. But enemy's AC is going to be 35 EAC or 37 KAC.
That means for a completely optimized character (let's include weapon focus) you have a +29 vs a 37. That gives you a 60% chance to hit, when completely optimized. Now you're talking about only hitting 50% of the time.
I just don't like those numbers.
Are we talking about the same stat arrays? My proposed build does have 26 strength at level 20.
20th Str 26/Dex 24/Con 18/Int 10/Wis 10/Cha 22 (41/41 vs 41/42, +0/-1)
Just to be clear we're talking about a difference of +1 to hit compared to absolute maximum, which is a 5% chance to hit. When odds are around 50/50, a 5% chance to hit represents about 10% overall damage difference, i.e. 45/50 = 0.9 = 90%.
You're correct, level 20 EAC/KAC is 35/37 for a combatant array. Your % is off though. To hit KAC 37, a +29 bonus needs to roll an 8. 8+29=37. Missing on 1-7 is 35% miss chance, 65% hit chance.
If you're using an Energy weapon (say a Solar Flare Doshko), my proposed build needs to roll a 6 to hit. Thats a 75% chance to hit. A Solar Weapon doesn't have that option unless they completely ignore their class ability.
If they're flat-footed (due to Feinting) that hits on 4 (85% chance to hit).
The absolute best base to-hit modifier (i.e. no debuffs, no situational modifiers) you can have in the game is +30. Thats 80% chance to-hit against EAC. A full attacking Soldier with that bonus gets 3 attacks with 50% to hit, or 150% of a single attack damage roll.
My proposed build when full attacking also has the same hit rate as the highest strength Soldier build with 50% three times, or 150% of a single attack damage roll.
If you're using KAC weapons, we're still talking about needing an 8 to hit. That is a 65% chance for my proposed build. Even full attacking, you get 3 attacks at 40% (~120% of average single hit damage). Same as the Soldier.
If you believe those odds are too low, then you shouldn't be suggesting a melee Soldier, because even with 28 Strength (absolute max) they have an identical chance to hit at 20th level with a full attack as my proposed stat array.
Looks like I'm going to be going heavy armor proficiency + Solar Weapon (+ solar weapon crystals). I'm going to forgo the reach and instead was going to get step up/step up and strike.
I get 5 feats from level 1 to 9.
1. Heavy Proficiency
2. Step Up
3. Step Up and Strike
4. ?
5. ?Is it worth taking the combo of Improved Feint/Greater Feint in combination with step up/step up and strike?
If not, how would you rank the following feats to fill those 2 slots.
1. Mobility
2. Enhanced Resistance
3. Nimble Moves
4. Adaptive Fighting
5. Weapon FocusWhich 2 Zenith Revelations at level 9 do you like most?
Typical Solar Weapon/Heavy Armor would go something like:
1) Heavy Armor3) Weapon Focus
5) Enhanced Resistance
7) Step up
9) Step up and strike
You don't have the feats to grab Skill Focus: Bluff, Feint and Improved Feint without dropping something probably worth more. Without all 3, the combo kinda isn't that good (less than 50% chance to Feint, doesn't last long enough).
You might want to talk to the Soldier about having them invest a Thundering Fusion and have their 7th or 11th gear boost converted over to Sonic Resonance. That is another way to get the flat footed condition into the party.
Until errata comes out, DR 9/- from Enhanced Resistance is hard to beat at 9th level. +1 to hit every single swing is better than the other stuff. Nimble moves, Adaptive Fighting and Mobility are all situational.
To be honest, I'd probably throw Coordinated Shot on that list for when you're considering feats for 11th.
With that feat setup, Solar Acceleration is good. Depending on your charisma and save DC, either Time Dilation (high Charisma) or Wormholes (lower Charisma) for the Graviton powers. You are not likely to be spending much time in Graviton mode, so probably that second one doesn't matter as much.
Have fun with the AP. Let us know how it works out for you.
I think 10 absolute percent is a big deal, is because general speaking you're not going to ever hit your enemy easily. I can't find the enemy AC per level guide, but remember that at best you'd have 26 strength with 20 BAB for a +28 to hit. But enemy's AC is going to be 35 EAC or 37 KAC.
That means for a completely optimized character (let's include weapon focus) you have a +29 vs a 37. That gives you a 60% chance to hit, when completely optimized. Now you're talking about only hitting 50% of the time.
I just don't like those numbers.
Are we talking about the same stat arrays? My proposed build does have 26 strength at level 20.
20th Str 26/Dex 24/Con 18/Int 10/Wis 10/Cha 22 (41/41 vs 41/42, +0/-1)Just to be clear we're talking about a difference of +1 to hit compared to absolute maximum, which is a 5% chance to hit. When odds are around 50/50, a 5% chance to hit represents about 10% overall damage difference, i.e. 45/50 = 0.9 = 90%.
You're correct, level 20 EAC/KAC is 35/37 for a combatant array. Your % is off though. To hit KAC 37, a +29 bonus needs to roll an 8. 8+29=37. Missing on 1-7 is 35% miss chance, 65% hit chance.
If you're using an Energy weapon (say a Solar Flare Doshko), my proposed build needs to roll a 6 to hit. Thats a 75% chance to hit. A Solar Weapon doesn't have that option unless they completely ignore their class ability.
If they're flat-footed (due to Feinting) that hits on 4 (85% chance to hit).
The absolute best base to-hit modifier (i.e. no debuffs, no situational modifiers) you can have in the game is +30. Thats 80% chance to-hit against EAC. A full attacking Soldier with that bonus gets 3 attacks with 50% to hit, or 150% of a single attack damage roll.
My proposed build when full attacking also has the same hit rate as the highest strength Soldier build with 50% three times, or 150% of a single attack damage roll.
If you're using KAC weapons, we're still talking about needing an...
My bad, I wrote my post in haste as I started it and then had something come up and had to hastily finish it without time to verify everything.
If you start with 18 strength, and apply a +6 personal enhancement, and increase it at every level up then theoretical max strength should be 28 not 26.
And the hit percentage calculations are in error, you're correct. Again because of my hastiness.
My general point remains though, which is that in Starfinder you never have a great chance to hit (compared to Starfinder). So even 10% lower chance to hit is very significant (to me). Especially when you're looking to use your higher level abilities to make a full attack with extra attacks.
By far the melee Solider and Solarion are the highest damaging builds, it's just that unlike Pathfinder where you were basically guaranteed a single hit each round (and as you grew to higher levels 2 or even 3 hits) there are no such guarantees in Starfinder.
I'll note +1 to hit is a 5% chance to hit. Although how one values that 5% against capabilities which aren't directly related to damage output is of more of a personal feeling, so I certainly can understand your point of view.
I'll point out with an Envoy in the party (admittedly doesn't apply to this party), its possible to reach "just don't roll a 1" territory at 8th level with Soldiers and Solarians against equal CR combantants.
Envoy Improved Get 'em is +2 to hit as a move action. They can also get Clever Attack to attack and Feint as a standard, which applies Flat footed for 1 round. That is effectively +4 to hit. A Str 22 Solarian at 8th level has 8+6+1=+15 to hit, possibly vs EAC. CR 8 combantant array is EAC 20. Which means +15+2=+19 would hit on a 1 if 1's were not automatic misses.
Bring in a flanking buddy, which admittedly is more of a tactical consideration and is less guaranteed than the Envoy's +4, and a Solarian can hit both its full attacks on a roll of 2 or higher at 8th.
So with the right party composition (i.e. an Envoy), it is possible to get 95% to hit odds against reasonable enemies.
Going all the way to an epic single boss (CR 11 vs level 8) is EAC 24, so hitting on 5 or higher, 3 or higher if you can get a flanking position. So 80-90% hit odds against epic bosses.
So I humbly submit you can get good to-hit odds in Starfinder. Its just not by youreslf in a single self contained character. It requires coordination in the party, and thus is sometimes is easy to miss when theorycrafting.
I don't like having to rely on other characters to succeed.
I would humbly submit that in looking at an individual characters capabilities, I really shouldn't be looking at what it can do if someone else does specific things.
I don't like having to rely on other characters to succeed.
I would humbly submit that in looking at an individual characters capabilities, I really shouldn't be looking at what it can do if someone else does specific things.
True enough. That is a fine way of doing comparisons between different builds, and in fact probably the proper way to view things when making a Starfinder Society character, as you can't guarantee who you'll be with.
As I usually play with my family, even in SFS scenerios, I have an advantage in that we can coordinate builds. It also means we don't step on each others toes, everyone has an interesting role to play out of combat, and we can sometimes come up with interesting combos that aren't possible in any other way. Which probably biases me in how I approach providing advice to players who ask for it.
Which is why I suggested a medium dexterity build that could get a good piloting skill check when Crexis suggested he wanted to be a Lashunta Solarian Pilot. Sacrificing some offensive power to fill in a needed starship role to make the party as a whole more effective in the overall adventure is the kind of decision I make alot. As he noted later, it was just something he read in a guide, so its sounds like a heavy armor/low dex build is just as good for his needs.
I guess I've been mostly trying to say in this thread that a medium dexterity Solar Armor Solarian is playable and in fact can be fun. At the very least for me. I happen to play one in SFS and have fun with it. Presumably other people viewing it through other criteria, different campaigns, and different GMs would not find it fun, which I suppose is what makes RPGs interesting at the end of the day. Unique characters interacting in interesting and different ways.
I guess my suggestion were a bit unfair, if I indicated that a more dex focused solarion was untenable. It certainly isn't as optimized, but isn't necessarily inherently flawed. Especially if it accomplishes other goals (like being a pilot) that the player wants.
For what it's worth, I do think it's better to take into account builds and abilities of characters around you, but when crafting a theoretical character its very challenging to do so.
Anyways, you provided good and sound advice on how to make a dex heavier melee solarion be viable, so thanks for your contribution to the boards.
I would actually not bother with the pistol (or any small arms) at all. Instead you should just pickup a sintered starknife. Grab the returning infusion for it.
Its a level 1 returning fusion, but the cost of applying a fusion is based on the level of the item it is being applied to. The level of the fusion determines the lowest level item it can be applied to, as well as the "amount" of the item it uses up. You can have fusions on an item whose total fusion levels are equal to or less than the item's levels.
So 2,300 credits for the returning fusion on a level 8 item. Pages 191 and 192 of the core rule book has the relevant rules sections.
The Sintered starknife is on the advanced melee weapon table, so its an advanced melee weapon. Which you are proficient in, and is much better than a small arms because you get to add both your level (because of advanced melee weapon specialization) and your strength (because it is a thrown weapon). Note it uses your Strength for the to-hit bonus and not your dexterity as well.
That sounds a lot better then using the small arms I had listed. Thanks !
Hopefully I'm not missing out on any other equipment. Maybe grab a few healing potions.
Yeah, that's why i suggested the starknife. It's the ranged attack option for melee primary characters as it plays to all of your existing strength already. And weapon focus (advanced melee) will even apply to it (and your solar weapon).
Currently there's not a lot of equipment to fuss with in Starfinder, if you've got armor and weapons that's really the majority of your need. Med-patches are useful for healing yourself mid-combat and you can't use any spell crystals or anything so there's not a lot to spend money on (yet).