I've been planning a character that is seen outwardly as "evil", but isn't necessarily evil per se. I have a few ideas, but was curious what the community out there thought of as outward signs of an evil character? Please any ideas would be welcome...thanks.
Also, on the same subject, out of idle curiosity, what are some races that are just seen as flat out evil, in your opinion?
Thanks for the input....
Safe journeys always....
In one of the Dragonlance novels, Kendermore I think, there was an ogre who kept chasing the kender children. It turned out that the children kept trying to wander into a ruins that was extremely dangerous, and he was only chasing them from the ruins to keep the children safe.
There was an episode of Hercules, the Legendary Journeys where a big ugly brute was screaming and pounding the table, and a bunch of guys jumped on him to shut him down, and got tossed around the room like rag dolls. Hercules was about to jump in, but the girl he was travelling with came up to him with a cold cup of milk. It turned out he was only screaming because he burned his mouth on the soup.
Hellknights are not evil per se. They are lawful. ostensibly Lawful Neutral, often Lawful Evil, but not necessarily. They ride around making sure that a deal is a deal. That people who run from the Law need to be captured and brought to whatever passes for justice, that no slaves ever escape, but sometimes no term of indenture ever lasts past the contract date.
I recall a first edition monster called a Skeleton Warrior. Skeleton Warriors were a kind of Lich that were on a quest to recover their phylacteries, and were willing to kill anything and everything to get them. And when the Skeleton Warrior regains his phylactery, he dies. Skeleton Warriors are on a quest to die.
I had toyed with the idea of the party running into a Revenant that was bent on bloody revenge on the BBEG.
Lord Varis the Lord of Whispers, seems to be spending all his time in Game of Thrones conspiring to place a just, strong, and wise ruler in charge of all Westeros.
I recall that Derro are always evil, that the rules say there are never nonevil Derro. It seems that the difference between Derro and Dwarves is that Derro are driven insane by certain drugs or something that they take. a nonevil Derro is by definition a Dwarf.
. . . Pech.
I'm by no means an expert on fey beings from the plane of earth, nor am I an expert on the derro. For instance, I couldn't tell you if a derro raised well away from the damaging fungus cytellish would be a derro at all, nor can I tell you how much of a derro's malovance is due to nature, how much is due to nurture, and how much is due to ingesting brain mold. You seem to have my knowledge squarely beaten in these regards.
But derro are not related to dwarves. They are descended from Pech.
At least in Golarion.
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Asmodeus' Advocate wrote: . . . Pech.... But derro are not related to dwarves. They are descended from Pech.
At least in Golarion.
Oops.
Mind control is usually seen by players as something nasty, without strictly being Evil in the game setting(s). So Mesmerists might have a nicely despicable air around them. Ditto for poisoners, self-mutilationists or Clerics of Great Old Ones.
Let's not forget the classics !
Skinwalkers are depicted with a somewhat bad reputation, being more or less bad depending the region and the kind.
Dhampirs stand out as intrinsically evil.
Tiefflings have a bad reputation too, but instead of being "unnatural offenses to the living", they're just "bad wierdos that might either betray me or slash me in the back, either way it's no good".
Drows are evil. Technically they can be good, but they're brought up as evil, and neutral or good drows tend to be slain or turned into driders because they are "evolution failures".
So, okay, from a player perspective, they're not flat out evil (eck, there have been CG succubus on my tables). But from a NPC / unknown PC, they range from "not evil would be impossibly rare" to "evil, period".
Then of course, you can jump to lycanthrops, undeads, demons, diables... that's evil, normally. Lycans aren't necessarily evil while in their human forms, but natural lycanthrops will be seen as evil and a lycanthrop on a full moon will likely be hunt as the impious beast it is. Intelligent undead generally have "alignement. evil" on their templates, and everything that has an Evil subtype supposedly will always be evil. Though if an angel can fall to a peri, demons can probably ascend too, that will never be the first idea of in game characters, unless they're out of their right mind.
As for characteristics, behaviours... playing that lycan or that dhampir who feeds on her enemies gives off a bad image for a neutral/good aligned character, don't you think ? Scaring people, intimidating them with promises of tortures is effective too. Though if the character doesn't wait for enemies to be dead or actually tortures them when her threats don't work, that would be evil.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Asmodeus' Advocate wrote: . . . Pech.... But derro are not related to dwarves. They are descended from Pech.
At least in Golarion.
Oops. I might have come across as somewhat more contrary than I meant to. My apologies! Derro-lore is hardly common knowledge, I just have a soft spot in my brain for the crazy creatures.
EDIT
Removed condescension. Wow, I'm bad at this.
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Tieflings have an ALTERNATIVE racial feature called Light from Darkness... making their natural status to be in darkness.
Dhampir are oft considered bad regardless of their true intentions, Ritcher and Alucard both want to kill Dracula, but Ritcher still attacks Alucard on sight, sort of thing.
And anyone with a mustache is always part of the problem, not the solution.
VoodistMonk wrote: And anyone with a mustache is always part of the problem, not the solution. Tony Stark?
Wait.
Yeah, you're probably right.
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Asmodeus' Advocate wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Asmodeus' Advocate wrote: . . . Pech.... But derro are not related to dwarves. They are descended from Pech.
At least in Golarion.
Oops. I might have come across as somewhat more contrary than I meant to. My apologies! Derro-lore is hardly common knowledge, I just have a soft spot in my brain for the crazy creatures.
EDIT
Removed condescension. Wow, I'm bad at this. You are far from the worst actor on these forums. No offense taken.
Thanks everyone, these are some good points, and some valuable information that I can use on the way I am wanting this character to play.
Thanks for the Derro-lore as well, that is some interesting stuff; I like the added info, especially regarding the Fae races...I have soft spot fr collecting Fae lore.
However, one thing that hasn't been answered, except by VRHM (at least tongue-in-cheek), is some outward signs that a being is evil. Such as they have horns, or a barbed tail....things of that nature. (Sorry, I may not have been clear enough for this point in my original post).
Thanks again....I do like these ideas and the discussion is good. =)
Safe journeys always....
Things that make people look evil:
-sneers and smirks, lopsided smiles in general
-ostentatious displays of wealth
-scars, limps, withered limbs
-falls under scars, but deserves it's own call out: facial disfigurement
-some kinds of facial hair
-baldness
-an off-putting manner of speaking
If you're going for an unusual race, most of them have visible or sensible characteristics that will make people realize what they are (or so they'll think).
Dhampirs are generally eerily beautiful, but that comes with a feeling from people around that that creature is alien. Also, it varies from kind to kind (ajibachana are less susceptible to come out as evil-looking, they'll just pass of as wierdos ; while nosferatu-born will be spotted right of the bat, being all palish and all ; in between, there are moroi-born and jiang-shi born).
The same can be said of tieflings, though their signs vary more greatly. I believe there's a random table a signs that a tiefling may display of his unholy heritage, you might think of voldemort-like looks, splitted tongues, having one or several rows of pointed teeth, and so on.
Keep in mind that in some societies, being disfigured or having withered/overgrown/unusual limbs or hunchback will make you look as an ill omen.
You can go for more unusual signs, playing with your shadow (some heritages do that, as do some traits), having an inhuman voice (personally, I have a liking for the wraiths' voice in SG-A, and it makes people realize there's something off and unnatural), having plants grow on you (not any plants, but fungi will do the trick) or host disliked animals in your clothes or body (like ants, spiders, lombrics), then you can smell of sulfur or the like.
Displaying animal features can be seen as cute by some, but that rarely happens when it is not backed up by cute behaviour (cats tend to look cute, as dogs, but few others are in this case ; crocodiles and sharks look like threats in people's heads).
If you want to go for it, introverted characters not explaining what they do will have a hard time explaining they're in fact not evil once people start suspecting them. People not speaking common (or the most used language in the area) can experience that issue too (especially when they speak infernal or drow, you see). There was a thread elsewhere explaining how publicly spellcasting can quickly make people distrust you.
seanchaidhe wrote: Thanks everyone, these are some good points, and some valuable information that I can use on the way I am wanting this character to play.
Thanks for the Derro-lore as well, that is some interesting stuff; I like the added info, especially regarding the Fae races...I have soft spot fr collecting Fae lore.
However, one thing that hasn't been answered, except by VRHM (at least tongue-in-cheek), is some outward signs that a being is evil. Such as they have horns, or a barbed tail....things of that nature. (Sorry, I may not have been clear enough for this point in my original post).
Thanks again....I do like these ideas and the discussion is good. =)
Safe journeys always....
My best personal example of that came from roleplaying.
I had a Wizard character who liked to collect samples of/from every monster we killed for research purposes, dissecting them and such.
At one point, the GM started secretly afflicting my character with what he called "aberrations." At one point, he told me my character was obsessively secretive. At the table, I started pulling out sheets of paper and cover the pages with pretend writing and made-up runes. Whenever any of the party members asked me what I was doing, I would say, "Nothing!" in a shrill, plaintive voice. Sometimes, I would deliberately mispeak, and when I was corrected, I would snap, "That's what I said!"
I was always making every effort to be a benefit to the party, but I would be willing to do controversial things like cast an Area Spell that would catch 1 or 2 of the party members, but hey, it ended the combat. And anyway, it was just a Web Spell. I'll almost definitely be more careful when it's a Fireball...
As time went on, the aberrations mounted up. At one point, the GM told me that I couldn't really digest regular food anymore. The only thing that my stomach could handle was blood. The party scratched their heads when I insisted on bringing a pig along. And when the pig ran away, I insisted on keeping an orc prisoner. Eventually, the behavioral and physical aberrations mounted up, she transformed into a creature kind of like a Drider, and I had to retire the character. The GM uses "Creepy Claire" as an NPC. He says my wizard was his favorite villain ever.
seanchaidhe wrote: Thanks everyone, these are some good points, and some valuable information that I can use on the way I am wanting this character to play.
Thanks for the Derro-lore as well, that is some interesting stuff; I like the added info, especially regarding the Fae races...I have soft spot fr collecting Fae lore.
However, one thing that hasn't been answered, except by VRHM (at least tongue-in-cheek), is some outward signs that a being is evil. Such as they have horns, or a barbed tail....things of that nature. (Sorry, I may not have been clear enough for this point in my original post).
Thanks again....I do like these ideas and the discussion is good. =)
Safe journeys always....
Dr. Manhattan from the Watchmen had a green glow that everyone believed was radioactive and caused the death of his wife.
When Willow used her magic, the whites of her eyes turned black.
Some people might get the "wrong" impression that a character is evil if they were to walk around in armor made from sentient beings. Or you know just plain old armor spikes
Someone brought back with Reincarnate may misunderstand and think they were just cursed with a kobold body.
In another thread, someone asked for how to make a good society look evil. I proposed Lawful Good Psychics that completely wipe the memories of evil creatures and give them a chance at good.
An interesting thread actually, link here.
Obvious worship of certain evil gods.
Oh, sure- everyone is cool with the Asmodeus worshiper (assuming they have a good contract). But the instant you take out a zon kuthon worshiper, everyone starts looking at you funny.
However, you can provide the characters with ideologies that are not explicitly evil- they worship other, more beneficial aspects of their god. So for a zon kuthon worshiper, there is the power gained from surviving hardship, and a willingness to take on obsessive and grueling acts in order to accomplish your goal. So you can easily turn this into a training/strength obsessed character with a troubled past.
lemeres wrote: Obvious worship of certain evil gods. That's a fine line though. Arguably worshiping - and thus supporting - an Evil Deity might be an Evil act. Picking a God that's perceived as Evil might be a safer bet.
VRMH wrote: lemeres wrote: Obvious worship of certain evil gods. That's a fine line though. Arguably worshiping - and thus supporting - an Evil Deity might be an Evil act. Picking a God that's perceived as Evil might be a safer bet. Maybe. Lots of good people get duped into worshiping evil gods, or believe a church to be Christian but is really a cult.
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Scott Wilhelm wrote: VRMH wrote: lemeres wrote: Obvious worship of certain evil gods. That's a fine line though. Arguably worshiping - and thus supporting - an Evil Deity might be an Evil act. Picking a God that's perceived as Evil might be a safer bet. Maybe. Lots of good people get duped into worshiping evil gods, or believe a church to be Christian but is really a cult. Historically there have been many a cult FAR less evil than Christianity.
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VoodistMonk wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Lots of good people get duped into worshiping evil gods, or believe a church to be Christian but is really a cult. Historically there have been many a cult FAR less evil than Christianity.
...but let's not go there. Personally I'd recommend one of the CN Elder Gods or Great Old Ones.
VRMH wrote: VoodistMonk wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Lots of good people get duped into worshiping evil gods, or believe a church to be Christian but is really a cult. Historically there have been many a cult FAR less evil than Christianity.
...but let's not go there. Personally I'd recommend one of the CN Elder Gods or Great Old Ones. I think Bokrug while CN, had a disproportionately high number of CE followers and a disproportionately low number of CG followers.
Red/black colour schemes.
Motifs involving bones, snakes, spiders, scorpions, rats.
In addition to horns, claws and fangs - or if you want to go more subtle, very long fingernails or unusually pointed teeth, possibly of a yellowish colour.
Necromancy. Plenty of non [evil] spells. Bad reputation.
TV tropes has lots of ideas.
MageHunter wrote: VRMH wrote: VoodistMonk wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Lots of good people get duped into worshiping evil gods, or believe a church to be Christian but is really a cult. Historically there have been many a cult FAR less evil than Christianity.
...but let's not go there. Personally I'd recommend one of the CN Elder Gods or Great Old Ones. I think Bokrug while CN, had a disproportionately high number of CE followers and a disproportionately low number of CG followers. I don't want to go there, either. I'm only saying that it shouldn't strain suspension of disbelief that a Good Person can worship an evil god or belong to an evil church: perhaps duped, perhaps for reasons. A person's relationship with his or her god can be complicated, and certainly fair ground for a player who wants people to think his character is evil when he really isn't.
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In this game, I only pay attention to religions for the feats associated with different deities. If I have to worship Gorum to apply Vital Strike on a charge with my greatsword, so be it. Doesn't in any way mean I care, at all, about the alignment that comes with it. Role playing that is as easy as simply using the ability granted, thanks Gorum for letting me do this. Same with Shelyn and Bladed Brush Combat or anything else. Thanks for the cool trick, I guess I'll just be this alignment now.
Evil is in the actions, not the beliefs. Lots of evil people are under the belief that they are righteously correct.
If you want to include visual representations of how evil someone is, surround them with things that only happen out of cruelty... necklace of ears, cages with various levels of decomposing bodies, burnt stakes that clearly have been used to execute people, crucifixion, torture, oppression, and tyranny.
Some deities may reward that behavior, but very few require it. The god someone worships is not the cause of their evil, it's an excuse, a scapegoat. Evil people do evil things regardless of what god they may worship. Religion is a poor indicator of evilness.
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