How has the passage of time and the Gap affected the other planes?


General Discussion


Want to start this post by saying that I know there's little to no information on this just yet, so this thread is more for speculation than anything else. I was thinking about the setting and I realised that the differences between the galaxy now and before the Gap is pretty huge, and this made me wonder how the other planes were effected. I imagine the First World is pretty different considering it's affected by the will of its inhabitants who are now much more advanced, and the elemental planes are probably more widely travelled with the abundance of technologies that allow people to cope better with the extreme conditions. How would this change the way creatures from these planes interact with those from the material plane? How would the physical appearance of those planes be affected? What happens if you try to go to the part of the First World/Shadow Plane that makes up the space where Golarion stood? I assume all portals connecting Golarion to those places are closed (or maybe not) but have those versions of the planet also disappeared? Would love to hear other people's thoughts on this.


I don't know that the First World has changed that much. There are technological/robot cities mentioned in the PF First World book. I also think there have always been high tech societies scattered throughout the universe; there's no reason Androffans with high tech weren't visiting the outer planes when Golarion was in its age of darkness. I assume some sort of filter keeps people/races who are too dissimilar from running into each other. Axis might naturally shuffle high tech weird aberrations to a different location than low tech, rich magic humanoids, or maybe no mixing between galaxies.

Something should exist to keep any iron age knucklehead with Plane Shift from going to a planar city and spending 100 gp on a set of reference works from another galaxy that can jump start the industrial age.


Xenocrat wrote:

I don't know that the First World has changed that much. There are technological/robot cities mentioned in the PF First World book. I also think there have always been high tech societies scattered throughout the universe; there's no reason Androffans with high tech weren't visiting the outer planes when Golarion was in its age of darkness. I assume some sort of filter keeps people/races who are too dissimilar from running into each other. Axis might naturally shuffle high tech weird aberrations to a different location than low tech, rich magic humanoids, or maybe no mixing between galaxies.

Something should exist to keep any iron age knucklehead with Plane Shift from going to a planar city and spending 100 gp on a set of reference works from another galaxy that can jump start the industrial age.

I agree the First World as a whole probably hasn't changed much, but I'm curious about how the parts of it that are now accessible are different from what we could see on Golarion, are any of the Eldest we knew and loved still around somewhere and are there new players on the scene? I remember there being something about an Eldest who was fascinated by the Sun, it would be interesting to hear if she's more important now or if she's even still around. I imagine Axis is one of the planes that hasn't really changed at all, but some planes might have a more noticable, especially those areas linked to the Golarion system.


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Well we've seen introduction to several outsider variants that reflect the 'modern' Starfinder setting. Holy angels toting lasguns, Nanite cloud defenders of Law, Demon/Devil spaceship.

I feel in a way such planes reflect the general tone of the prime material. What prevented Devil Spaceship from showing up earlier? Or Angel with lasgun? I'd say general level of belief.

I'd be inclined to say that Devil Spaceship existed during Pathfinder era too, but constraints on manifesting within the Prime AS a devil spaceship prevented such, so it would take a different form.

Kind of like a Ghostbusters 'pick the form of the Destroyer'. Until the general mortal mindset shifted to 'guns and spaceships and shit' the outsider forces, even if they had such knowledge and possibility couldn't manifest it in the prime.


Losobal wrote:

Well we've seen introduction to several outsider variants that reflect the 'modern' Starfinder setting. Holy angels toting lasguns, Nanite cloud defenders of Law, Demon/Devil spaceship.

I feel in a way such planes reflect the general tone of the prime material. What prevented Devil Spaceship from showing up earlier? Or Angel with lasgun? I'd say general level of belief.

I'd be inclined to say that Devil Spaceship existed during Pathfinder era too, but constraints on manifesting within the Prime AS a devil spaceship prevented such, so it would take a different form.

Kind of like a Ghostbusters 'pick the form of the Destroyer'. Until the general mortal mindset shifted to 'guns and spaceships and s&~$' the outsider forces, even if they had such knowledge and possibility couldn't manifest it in the prime.

Parts of the prime material have had high tech super science for probably millions of years, even if any particular species died out. The first AP proves there was a more advanced interstellar empire than the current Pact Worlds aeons before the Pathfinder timelines.


Xenocrat wrote:


Parts of the prime material have had high tech super science for probably millions of years, even if any particular species died out. The first AP proves there was a more advanced interstellar empire than the current Pact Worlds aeons before the Pathfinder timelines.

Right, and there's nothing saying that Angels with lasguns didn't show up to those species in their neck of the galaxy/etc. But Golarion, for the most part, wasn't lasguns and supertech, even if small sections did have stuff (ala the Adventure paths).

So what I mean by 'prime material' was more 'local area where such outsiders show up'. Generally speaking, on Golarion, the sum total of beings that believed in shit had tech levels of the 'fantasy era'. Thus the outsiders that showed up reflected those beliefs.

So even if Angel with lasgun wanted to show up, he'd manifest as "angel with fire longbow' or something. Unless the region he showed up in had high enough belief in higher tech.

But again, its just my headcanon, that the armories of heaven and hell have all the crazy ass things real and imagined beyond mundane current level of understanding, and during planar conflicts they use whatever they want, but when they try to show up on the material, even if called, they get subjected to 'local rules'.


My personal theory is that the same MAD doctrine that prevented the gods from becoming too involved in mortal issues, even up to the extent of the World Wound, also leads them to adopt a proportional response policy. Endbringer devils have probably always been around in some form, but they're only going to be deployed against worlds with something approaching that level of technology.


Are the Planes more easily travelled? It seems like there is a higher minimum PC level to cast plane shift (due to 6th level casting only)than in Pathfinder. A technomancer must be at minimum 16th level to cast the spell, as opposed to 13th for a wizard or 9th for a cleric. That spell, to my knowledge, is the only method we have for travelling to planes other than the Drift. What's more, spellcasters now have to have items or nav programs specifically tied to a plane in order to travel there as a part of the spell, which means just knowing the spell does not mean a caster is capable of going to a given plane, or that they ever will be.

I posit that the Outer Planes are far more mysterious than they once were. It's up for debate how common characters of 16th level or higher are in the galaxy, but there are certainly not many, and those with the desire or ability to document the layout of Hell will be few and far between. Most of what we have to go on would be difficult-to-verify anecdotal accounts or pre-Gap records, and the latter we know only applies so far.

Outsiders have changed a lot, that much we know. The Planes probably have, as well. I imagine just as there are no angels with SMGs, there are titanium bullet-trains that run between the ivory towers of Elysium.


Big Lemon wrote:

Are the Planes more easily travelled? It seems like there is a higher minimum PC level to cast plane shift (due to 6th level casting only)than in Pathfinder. A technomancer must be at minimum 16th level to cast the spell, as opposed to 13th for a wizard or 9th for a cleric. That spell, to my knowledge, is the only method we have for travelling to planes other than the Drift. What's more, spellcasters now have to have items or nav programs specifically tied to a plane in order to travel there as a part of the spell, which means just knowing the spell does not mean a caster is capable of going to a given plane, or that they ever will be.

I posit that the Outer Planes are far more mysterious than they once were. It's up for debate how common characters of 16th level or higher are in the galaxy, but there are certainly not many, and those with the desire or ability to document the layout of Hell will be few and far between. Most of what we have to go on would be difficult-to-verify anecdotal accounts or pre-Gap records, and the latter we know only applies so far.

A fair point, though I would argue that even in Pathfinder there were both natural and man-made portals to (at least some) other planes, so it seems likely that those still exist in some form. On top of this, the ability to mass produce technomagical products as well as the increase in actual explorable space likely means that more of these portals exist and are known of, which counteracts the higher difficulty of actually moving between planes. I imagine Kalo-Mahoi, for example, probably has some closer ties to the plane of water than most places and there are probably natural portals which can be exploited for travel and trade.


Even just sticking to the spell Plane Shift, note that you don't need to be a level 16 caster to *build* a Device of Plane Shift. You merely need someone with a +16 skill ratings in Engineering and/or Mysticism. In practice, its probably even easier, at least if you assume the typical Device of Plane Shift is a large installation with logistical demands, rather than something you carry in your hand.

Also, I tend to figure that the nature of the Outer Planes tends to filter and bias visitor attention. There has always been a Kasatha Heaven, for instance, but even a LG planewalker visiting the Upper Planes was vanishingly unlikely to ever see it, because they had no conception of 'Kasatha'. The Outer Planes are psycho-reactive, after all. Where you go is as much based on your intent as actual geography.


Okay, now I want a Starfinder version of Planescape.

Thanks, guys.

I can just imagine Sigil, advanced 6,000 years, with skyscrapers so tall that they loop around the "sun" and continue to the other side of the ring. The Mazes being a techno-dungeon. The Factions now corporate entities, selling reality to the highest bidder. The Lady of Pain a vision of cybernetic agony, trailed by monofilament blades.


Counter point: Assuming a person CAN make such a device (any method to do which musy be added and approved by the GM anyway), it stands that a character must be at least 16th level in order to have 16 ranks in mysticism, and 16th level characters of any class would be equally rare (all are presented as equals in the CRB)


Big Lemon wrote:
Counter point: Assuming a person CAN make such a device (any method to do which musy be added and approved by the GM anyway), it stands that a character must be at least 16th level in order to have 16 ranks in mysticism, and 16th level characters of any class would be equally rare (all are presented as equals in the CRB)

I understand what you mean, but if we're just going by the crafting rules all level 16 weapons would require individuals with 16 ranks in engineering to produce. In the future economy of mass production, I'm sure they could create a machine capable of reproducing the effects without needing a 16th level caster to manually cast the spell into each device. The rules presented by the game don't really hold up to anything larger than PC scale so we have to use some creative license.


Luke Spencer wrote:
Big Lemon wrote:
Counter point: Assuming a person CAN make such a device (any method to do which musy be added and approved by the GM anyway), it stands that a character must be at least 16th level in order to have 16 ranks in mysticism, and 16th level characters of any class would be equally rare (all are presented as equals in the CRB)
I understand what you mean, but if we're just going by the crafting rules all level 16 weapons would require individuals with 16 ranks in engineering to produce. In the future economy of mass production, I'm sure they could create a machine capable of reproducing the effects without needing a 16th level caster to manually cast the spell into each device. The rules presented by the game don't really hold up to anything larger than PC scale so we have to use some creative license.

Pretty much this. An adventurer needs to be level 16 to make level 16 gear, because they are an adventurer using adventurer resources. They aren't a highly paid chief engineer running the build team in a cutting edge factory designed and built by a billion-credit corporation.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A 15th-level roboticist can create 16th-level gear, but only if it's nonmagical.


Even so, the incredible high expense of high level weapons (only affordable by the very wealthy or very high level) means they are also very rare. They arent more expensive arbitrarily or made in the same numbers as the cheap stuff.

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