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The favored class bonus is something that annoyed me for a long time.
To me only very few have any connection to the race they're linked to. Most seem very arbitrarily distributed amongst the races.
Multiclassing is always punished by FCB, as you'll lose several levels.
In the end this makes me rarely use racial FCB options because I don't want to choose race based on FCB.
Best option to me would be just to eliminate FCB in PF2.
Perhaps this was already covered somewhere, I might have missed it.
At least I don't remember seeing it mentioned anywhere.
Which might actually be good, perhaps it's gone already ;-)
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FCBs were always very random and some races had very markedly better ones. I'd be happy to see them finally die in a fire.
I hope its gone.
Favored Class Bonus Punished Spontaneous Casters who were not human, half human or planetouched with a very specific alternate racial ability that replaced their planar racial language and gave them the human subtype.
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Best option to me would be just to eliminate FCB in PF2.
Myself, I don't agree. I'd be fine with some kind of FCB in new pathfinder. Myself, I enjoyed there being a difference in classes by race and the nifty things you got that were hard to get elsewhere.
FCBs were always very random and some races had very markedly better ones.
I'd rather have them done better than removed. The same thing could be said of feats, spells and many other aspects of the game.
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I'd guess we see enough new rules mechanics and options that re-doing the FCB into something be won't be needed.
Also I dislike the whole concept because it punishes multiclassing.
Some FCB were really cool, such as Catfolk Monks.
I don't like how it punished multi-classing, though.
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It doesn’t punish multi classing - it rewards single classing. You can get all kinds of useful little synergies the end bonuses out of multi classing having something that reward single class thing isn’t exactly bad. And multi classing is hardly disadvantaged.
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I always found favored class options rather fiddly. Perhaps class focused ancestry feats would fill that design space and be simpler to implement. Like gnomes can take an ancestry feat that buffs illusions or similar.
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I love FCB and would hate to see it gone completely.
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I don't know how you can reward single classing (which one should do) without also being perceived as "punishing multi-classing". One should get some sort of benefit from sticking with a single class beyond "access to higher levels of class features."
But FCBs in PF1 ranged from borderline useless (pretty much all the fighter ones) to clearly optimal (Human warpriests, Elf occultists) to borderline outrageous (Gathlain Kineticists).
I wonder if stuff like "Catfolk Monks can treat their claws as unarmed strikes for flurry and style strikes" couldn't be handled with feats that have as a prerequisite both class (Monk) and an ancestry feat (in this case the Heritage feat that would give a Catfolk her claws), though.
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I don't know how you can reward single classing (which one should do) without also being perceived as "punishing multi-classing". One should get some sort of benefit from sticking with a single class beyond "access to higher levels of class features."
But FCBs in PF1 ranged from borderline useless (pretty much all the fighter ones) to clearly optimal (Human warpriests, Elf occultists) to borderline outrageous (Gathlain Kineticists).
I wonder if stuff like "Catfolk Monks can treat their claws as unarmed strikes for flurry and style strikes" couldn't be handled with feats that have as a prerequisite both class (Monk) and an ancestry feat (in this case the Heritage feat that would give a Catfolk her claws), though.
my general thought is that FCB will probably be integrated into ancestry feats in some way, so yeah I agree this is probably the best path.
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The problem with FCBs as handled in Pathfinder is that you end up with certain combinations of FCBs with racial features making a given race the clear best race for a given class. I don't want a certain combination to shake out such that all wizards are elves or all rangers are gnolls.
If you want to reward single class, I think a better way to do it is a simple, universal bonus that is ancestry-independent. This can be a minor benefit like +1 HP for every level in the first class you took at 1st level. It could be a stronger benefit like for every 4 levels you take in that first class you get a bonus general feat. But either way, make it universal.
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I don't know how you can reward single classing (which one should do) without also being perceived as "punishing multi-classing". One should get some sort of benefit from sticking with a single class beyond "access to higher levels of class features."
That is right, I don't understand how some people manage to translate rewarding commitment as punishing other choices. Single class characters should be rewarded.
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If you want to reward single class, I think a better way to do it is a simple, universal bonus that is ancestry-independent. This can be a minor benefit like +1 HP for every level in the first class you took at 1st level. It could be a stronger benefit like for every 4 levels you take in that first class you get a bonus general feat. But either way, make it universal.
+1 to HP is quite boring, a bonus feat every 4 levels I can get behind that.
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I don't know how you can reward single classing (which one should do) without also being perceived as "punishing multi-classing". One should get some sort of benefit from sticking with a single class beyond "access to higher levels of class features."That is right, I don't understand how some people manage to translate rewarding commitment as punishing other choices. Single class characters should be rewarded.
I think it is primarily a psychological issue. Any form of favored class bonus favors sticking to a single class over multiclassing. The only real difference between D&D 3 and PF1 in this area is in regard to prestige classes, which manage to avoid both the multiclassing penalty in D&D 3 and the favored class bonus in PF1.
There is no good reason to keep favored class bonuses in PF2 -- those few alternate bonuses that are actually worthwhile can be made into class feats.
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If racial stats bonus are becoming a bit more superflous, it would be nice to still have unique race+class combination features. Those Racial archetypes and some FCB were good at giving races some unique niches and usually didn't require giving up a feat or anything like that.
I know people want all races to be equally viable for all classes, but that doesn't mean "being the same"!
I'm just going to port the PF1 bonuses over to PF2 unless the numbers break everything or aren't compatible due to fears of some kind. Yeah it's a bit optimizting but I found some of the bonuses to help with odd builds(Brawler bonuses to CMB was interesting for some gimmick builds) or to help make up for an Archetype(Cryptbeaker Alchemist suffers damage loss, Half Orc or Tiefling makes up for it a bit)
So yeah i don't see why we should drop them. Do them better sure I'll take that.
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So how about we just decouple race/ancestry from FCBs and just do it by class? As in "if you stick with this class you get these bonuses".
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You are worried about FCB? Im worried about being able to multiclass at all.
You are worried about FCB? Im worried about being able to multiclass at all.
One of the early blogs said something to the effect of "this works differently when you multiclass, but we'll get into that later" so it exists.
I imagine across all of the people who were into PF1 you will find a number of people who thought PF1's multiclassing was too strong and people who thought PF1's multiclassing was too weak. I wonder how one appeases both camps.
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I sure hope it isnt VMC or 4E hybrid MC...
My problem was Pathfinder was supposed to get away from "I'm a Elf, I should be a wizard" of 3.5(I might be misremembering, it's been a long time since the Alpha/Beta) and... turned around and went right back to certain races being the best choice for certain classes.
Think it's more an issue of the FCBs not being very balanced against each other. The ELF FCB isn't even good though, or the Dwarf one... Humans are the ones getting an unfair advantage here.
Favored Class Bonus Punished Spontaneous Casters who were not human, half human or planetouched with a very specific alternate racial ability that replaced their planar racial language and gave them the human subtype.
My favorite FCB was the human spontaneous caster one which allowed extra spells known. I abused the heck out of that one, but I also recognized it was too powerful for its own good, in the context of an extra skill point or hit point. It made my oracle FAR more versatile than any oracle who didn’t take it, all for the cost of about 10 extra hit points...
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The problem with FCBs as handled in Pathfinder is that you end up with certain combinations of FCBs with racial features making a given race the clear best race for a given class.
That doesn't really follow: If you remove FCB's from the game you STILL have a "certain combinations of FCBs<racial stats> with racial features making a given race the clear best race for a given class". Some races are just better at certain classes. If anything, FCB made some races that wouldn't normally be good options better ones for MORE good options.
I don't like how it punished multi-classing, though.
The base Half-Elf disagrees as Multitalented and free pick of elf, Half-Elf and Human FCB's seems to do anything but punish.
Just destrict them racially, so there's just a pool of 'em and you can take whichever one you want, when you want.
Or hell, just make 'em a class customization feature, rather than 'favored class', so if you go a level of class A, you get one from A's list, then you get one from class B's list if you level up in class B, etc. etc.
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Since PF2 is seriously modifying how hit points and skill points are handed out, the default options for favored class bonuses are most likely not needed. The alternative racial bonuses can then be discarded (if they are laughably weak, as most of them are) or made into class feats or ancestry feats as appropriate.
FCBs really should have been eliminated as soon as Paizo dumped the concept of specific favored classes by race. They would only be a source of confusion in the new edition.
FCBs really should have been eliminated as soon as Paizo dumped the concept of specific favored classes by race. They would only be a source of confusion in the new edition.
As opposed to the confusion that calling Race, Ancestry?
That note, allow me to introduce Favored Ancestry Class Bonus! yes you see certain Ancestries have a cultural or physical reasons that manifest in classes due to training/info or physical traits.
There confusion solved.
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I'd be fine if they went away. They were either a default, insignificant option (skill or HP), or they would be wildly powerful synergies between a race and class. They were also a system put in place because of poorly designed 3.5 classes that no one single classed in.
Classes look to be really diverse and robust from the previews. I don't think there will be any real reason to encourage single classing over Multiclassing in PF2. And maybe Multiclassing is different now too.
Personally i think they should add a different system where the favored class bonus might be something like "Race-to-class affinity" which makes multiclassing less of a pain.
Ofcourse the current system rewards you for single-classing, but in PF1 you already are rewarded greatly from sticking to your class in how BAB work (before fractals) your spell progresion, and just how powerful single-classing is for a quite a few of the classes.
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Favored Class Bonus Punished Spontaneous Casters who were not human, half human or planetouched with a very specific alternate racial ability that replaced their planar racial language and gave them the human subtype.My favorite FCB was the human spontaneous caster one which allowed extra spells known. I abused the heck out of that one, but I also recognized it was too powerful for its own good, in the context of an extra skill point or hit point. It made my oracle FAR more versatile than any oracle who didn’t take it, all for the cost of about 10 extra hit points...
It worked out okay in the larger sense, in that spontaneous casters really did need the extra spells known to keep up with prepared casters, but it had the unfortunate downside of being effectively mandatory to build a good Sorcerer. I ended up houseruling it as an option that could be taken irrespective of race, which every Sorcerer should take.
But I think that illustrates why FCB should go. In most cases, there was an obvious choice that didn't get much thought. Playing a Cleric? Good golly, you need those skill points. Wizard? Hit points. Sorcerer? Spells known. Just build it into the class progression. There were a few cases where there were some legitimately interesting options, but why waste pages and pages of rules text on a system that adds nothing in most situations?
As for the multiclass issue, if there's a lesson to be learned from PF1 it's that people will stay single-class if there are good class features to look forward to. The 3.5 issue with multiclassing was primarily due to the base classes having relatively little to offer. Once they got actual class features, the problem disappeared entirely. I don't think FCB had much, if anything, to do with the viability of single-class vs multiclass in PF1 (except perhaps in cases like the Sorcerer which were highly dependent on the FCB to act as a crutch for their progression)
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If you want to reward single class, I think a better way to do it is a simple, universal bonus that is ancestry-independent. This can be a minor benefit like +1 HP for every level in the first class you took at 1st level. It could be a stronger benefit like for every 4 levels you take in that first class you get a bonus general feat. But either way, make it universal.+1 to HP is quite boring, a bonus feat every 4 levels I can get behind that.
+1 HP/level is the equivalent of changing my character's HD from a d8/level to a d10/level.
This can be life or death when you live on the front line.
I'll keep my nice, boring, stacks with everything bonuses thank you.
For the most part, FCB are ok or even good. If you don't care about mechanics too much, you can pick up the generic +1 HP / SP bonus and be fine. And depending on build, you can tinker a bit with combining different FCB. For example when you use the (in)famous human sorcerer FCB to get more spells, you will probably skip it on the first three levels (because you don't want 3 more known cantrips), but take HP (or SP) instead. My prime example for interesting FCB usage is half-elf rogue: Pick a combination of elf, half-elf and human FCB to get a second advanced rogue talent at level 10, +1 to feint and another use of your level 0 + 1 SLAs.
Now FCB are quite imbalanced - a lot of them are too situational or too small to compete with an instant bonus HP. Those should be redone as other options, often feats. However, those FCB who basically give you additional class talents are difficult to replace - you could take Extra X as feat, but your amount of available feats is pretty static.
Opening all alternate FCB to all races would help to create more options, but might freeze a few players with choice paralysis.
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I don't know how you can reward single classing (which one should do) without also being perceived as "punishing multi-classing". One should get some sort of benefit from sticking with a single class beyond "access to higher levels of class features."That is right, I don't understand how some people manage to translate rewarding commitment as punishing other choices. Single class characters should be rewarded.
I've experienced this sort of thing before, and its a matter of when it affects you. The one I am thinking about was in League of Legends, they made a mechanic for a long range caster that made him do more damage the farther he was, cementing his artillery like abilities. In playtesting though (IIRC it never made it to the live game), it didn't feel like a buff for staying away, but a debuff for getting close.
So I expect that the feeling of punishment is that if you multiclass or prestige you you are losing out because it was previously one bonus, and now you are losing that. Now why wouldn't this be enough of a deterrent to stop someone from multiclassing? Because you get different class features for doing so, but flatout lose (barring half elves) this one ability even though the new class has the same mechanic.
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Count me in as liking the concept of Favored Class Bonus, but disliking a lot of the particular implementation.
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I like the idea, they're a fun little extra thing to play around with. I don't like the execution, but I'd rather they be improved than axed. If it wasn't for the completely disproportionate ability to increase spells known for human(-ish) spontaneous casters, it wouldn't bug me as much... Expanded Arcana is terrible, Pages of Spell Knowledge only go so far, there's really no alternative if you want any versatility at all. I know, I know, versatility is kind of a human thing in PF lore, but still.
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I think the favored class bonus should be replaced with a balanced class levels bonus. If you are a 10/10 Fighter/Rogue, that is a character concept. If you are a 17/3 Paladin/Rogue, you just took it to dump STR and use your DEX mod for damage (or something), which is a mechanical dip that deviates from character concept. I should credit Josh (Pillars of Eternity) for that point, which I always kind of knew, but didn't ever exactly put my finger on.
To be clear, I'm fine with mechanical dipping. I just think if you go 10/10, that is as worthy of a dedication reward as going all 20.
+1 HP/level is the equivalent of changing my character's HD from a d8/level to a d10/level.
This can be life or death when you live on the front line.
I'll keep my nice, boring, stacks with everything bonuses thank you.
It's the equivalent of Toughness, ie one middling feat. It stacks with it, but that can be handled by letting people take Toughness twice.
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I have great memories of abusing the Kitsune Sorcerer FCB to get a +5 bonus to the DCs of my enchantment spells. However, I have to admit that it and a bunch of other FCBs were not well balanced. If FCBs stay in the game, they *need* to be more balanced than the PF1 bonuses were.
^ . . . Agreed, although I wouldn't mind an Ancestry that specializes in a particular class getting a purposely stronger Favored Class Bonus for it.
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Eh my players for get about it half the time anyways. It might as well be gone.
FCB was an ok idea, that had the awesome potential to make certain naturally bad combinations of race-class better. We could have had balanced paladin-dwarfs and fighter-halfings through it but that didn't happen. It still did end up making spontaneous casters considerably more capable so there is that.
I've found that beginners often forget about their favoured class bonus. It's just another thing to remember when they're already struggling to keep track of things at level up.
Never took any FCB but the hit points. I was never interested in 1/5th of something or similar, mostly played humans and mostly martials at that. So I pretty much ignored them as undesirable.
If streamlining the system is an aim, aim hard at FCB's and with the last vestige of FCB's gain 1/5 of an orb of annihilation, be 20th level and throw all four right at FCB's. Or nuke them ftom orbit. Only way to be s....streamlined.