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1 & 2 - Most isn't a major feature as most characters only use one. The difference between a D8 and a D6 is 1 point on average. A D6 and 2D6 difference is only 3-4. We also don't know if PF2 has expensive compound bows to use strength.
Every +1 a weapon has adds another damage die in PF2...so by the time we're talking +3 weapons, we might easily be comparing 4d12 to 4d6. That's a +12 damage and not something to sneeze at.
You're right on the ranged damage, I suppose.
3 - Carrying capacity has never been an issue in PF and I've played Strength 8 characters. Most weight comes from heavy armor. High Dex characters don't have this.
In the current edition? Sure. But we're talking about the new one.
4 - I can count on 1 hand the number of combat maneuvers I've used.
Once again, we're talking a new edition. Just the fact that they almost certainly won't provoke AoO will make these a lot more usable in the new one.
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The +3 from strength *doesn't* equal extra dice in PF2 that is only magical enhancements. So that is a non issue here.
I'm aware of that, but no it isn't a non-issue. My point was that there are no finesse d12 weapons, to our knowledge. They cap at d6. Whereas Str weapons go up to at least d12.
This difference is thus super relevant.
This is the same system as Starfinder - So it still isn't an issue.
Not necessarily. The most important part of the system for whether carrying capacity is how readily available extradimensional spaces are, and we have no info on that.
I mean, if accessing a Bag of Holding costs a Resonance (ie: you can only do it a very limited number of times per day, using slots you could use for, say, a healing potion), suddenly how much you can carry outside it is super relevant.
I'm not saying that's the case, I'm just noting that without such information you can't say how useful carrying capacity is.
Not really. Now it actually takes a skill investment. So you're only going to do Combat Maneuvers if you took Athletics and if it is anything like Pathfinder, the classes who could get the most mileage out of it don't have many skills usually.
They've made it pretty clear that starting skill ranks are higher in number, and we know the progression after 1st level (which gives a total of 9 ranks over time). And no skill can ever cost more than 4 Ranks.
This combination makes it quite certain that even maxed Athletics (which also covers swimming, climbing, and probably jumping, all useful independent of combat maneuvers) is gonna be 1/3 of your actual skill resources at most even on really 'low skill' characters.
Either way, the fact is, Dex is ALWAYS better than strength - And Dex to Damage, for practical purposes, can make strength the truly inferior choice.
Are you using a short sword? Dex is better than Strength.
Are you using a Rapier? Dex is better than Strength.
Well, firstly, we pretty much know for a fact that this is a choice requiring investment. Since one playtest character demoed has Dex-to-damage (the Rogue) and another lacks it (the Alchemist). I doubt it's Rogue exclusive, but it's clearly not universal either.
So any 'its better' stuff has to be balanced on that basis.
While, yes, a Character with a high Strength swinging 2 handed with power attack is going to hit harder than a Dex User...
It isn't as big as you think:
18 strength power attack (BAB +4) 2 handed longsword = 1d8+12 (avg 17)
18 dex piranha striking (BAB +4) with a Rapier = 1d6+8 (avg 12)It is only 5 damage difference.
This is not how Power Attack works in the new edition. It costs two actions but adds a damage die (eventually, two of them).
That makes the damage difference (2d12+6 vs. 2d6+4) a full +8 at 1st level, and likely higher later (where we lack the data).
But more importantly, the mere fact that you're using PF1 rules in your argument strongly hurts it. We don't know enough yet about PF2 to know how it works, but we do know it is very different from your example, and that's an issue.
But the Dex guy also has +4 more init, +4 more AC, doesn't need to use Heavy Armor so has more movement, +4 more Reflex Save etc etc...
Dex is no longer used for Initiative in PF2.
And we don't know how Dex + Armor relates to AC in PF2 at all.
So the only part of this we know is true is the Reflex Save. Which is totally true.
The question then becomes is +4 Reflex Save worth -8 damage per hit (-5 per hit if not doing Power Attack). Which it may well be (especially with the potential movement/AC bonus and possibly better weapon properties)...but is it worth enough that investing whatever resource it takes to do it is always the right choice? We have very little evidence for that.
And yes - you are talking about the new game, but we don't know enough to know for certain what is in it, so we can only point out why Dex to Damage is bad in normal PF so that the devs can read it and consider if these same problems exist in Pathfinder 2nd Edition as well.
We know enough to know that a lot of the core assumptions in your argument are deeply flawed in the new edition.
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It isn't as big as you think:
18 strength power attack (BAB +4) 2 handed longsword = 1d8+12 (avg 17)
18 dex piranha striking (BAB +4) with a Rapier = 1d6+8 (avg 12)It is only 5 damage difference.
aka a ~30% increase. That is not insubstantial.
But the Dex guy also has +4 more init,
Yes, the dex guy is faster. Consider it a trade off for doing less damage.
Or, to use your words from above, it's only a 4 point difference.
+4 more AC, doesn't need to use Heavy Armor so has more movement, +4 more Reflex Save etc etc...
If your wearing heavy armor, your getting a heck of a lot more than +4 to your AC.
If your playing a fighter, you get rid of the movement penalty. If you're a paladin, you have a mount for movement.
oh yeah totally, except that the highest dps build in the game is strength based and magic heavy armor being the best makes dex to ac basically irrelevant. Not to mention in 5e you can dump pretty much any stat you want because headbands and belts are replacement stats rather than buffs. Casters can use their casting stat to hit with spells, some like the warlock can even use them for atk/dmg on weapon attacks and it's not even that good, but clearly dex to damage is basically satan.DND 5e just straight up gives dex to damage not just on finesse weapons but ranged weapons as well, I think as long as the number of attacks you can hit with such a character is no longer in crazytown territory that just flat giving it to those weapon types with no feat required is fine.That is one of the worst things about 5e in my opinion. Outside of a few niche builds everyone can safely dump Str.
Yeah, other things for 5e: plate gives higher AC than can be achieved with dexterity. Dex doesn't apply to AC at all in heavy armor, which means if you are a battle cleric or a paladin or anything with casting stat, a striking stat, and heavy armor you may very well dump dex to 8. Losing out on reflex and initiative sucks, but is still better than dumping strength for a lot of buildsm And I don't think any build which gets heavy armor + the Barbarian count as niche builds.
I don't like 5e as much as pathfinder, but this criticism feels overblown in practice. I think the worst part about having low strength in both systems is that most of us aren't that strict about carrying capacity. Kinda like how humans are too good if you don't strictly enforce vision rules.
oh yeah totally, except that the highest dps build in the game is strength based and magic heavy armor being the best makes dex to ac basically irrelevant. Not to mention in 5e you can dump pretty much any stat you want because headbands and belts are replacement stats rather than buffs. Casters can use their casting stat to hit with spells, some like the warlock can even use them for atk/dmg on weapon attacks and it's not even that good, but clearly dex to damage is basically satan.DND 5e just straight up gives dex to damage not just on finesse weapons but ranged weapons as well, I think as long as the number of attacks you can hit with such a character is no longer in crazytown territory that just flat giving it to those weapon types with no feat required is fine.That is one of the worst things about 5e in my opinion. Outside of a few niche builds everyone can safely dump Str.Yeah, other things for 5e: plate gives higher AC than can be achieved with dexterity. Dex doesn't apply to AC at all in heavy armor, which means if you are a battle cleric or a paladin or anything with casting stat, a striking stat, and heavy armor you may very well dump dex to 8. Losing out on reflex and initiative sucks, but is still better than dumping strength for a lot of buildsm And I don't think any build which gets heavy armor + the Barbarian count as niche builds.
I don't like 5e as much as pathfinder, but this criticism feels overblown in practice. I think the worst part about having low strength in both systems is that most of us aren't that strict about carrying capacity. Kinda like how humans are too good if you don't strictly enforce vision rules.
I never played high level 5e so maybe magic items make a big difference. But for low level play Dex is better for most characters.
In 5e if you have a 15 and an 8 to assign to Str and Dex you are better off mechanically speaking putting the 15 in Dex and the 8 in str. Even with full weapon and armor proficiency.
You loose one AC (Half Plate +2 Dex gives 17 vs full plates 18) and you have net +3 better iniative and Dex save. That's generally a better trade. Your damage with a one handed weapon is unchainged. If you have a casting stat, a striking stat and heavy armor proficiency (war cleric, paladin, etc.) you are better of dumping Str and going with Dex.
So it's not "any build which gets heavy armor + the Barbarian" it's barbarian plus characters who want to spend feats (which in 5e come every four levels and are instead of a stat increase).
Once you do spend the feats Str builds are good but if it's not your specialization (most builds) you are better off with Dex.
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DND 5e just straight up gives dex to damage not just on finesse weapons but ranged weapons as well, I think as long as the number of attacks you can hit with such a character is no longer in crazytown territory that just flat giving it to those weapon types with no feat required is fine.That is one of the worst things about 5e in my opinion. Outside of a few niche builds everyone can safely dump Str.
No they can’t. Not if they don’t want to get shredded by monsters bigger than them. Remember, Strength is a saving throw and is often associated with being heavily displaced, grappled, throttled, or just straight up mauled horribly. Some pretty big monsters will do very nasty things to you if they managed to get those effects of. Most famous being a mindflayer oneshotting you in a grapple. Reduce strength at your own peril.
But that’s the thing. 5e actually made Strength a significant stat by increasing the value of weapon dice (all strength weapons have the highest damage dice), giving ranged weapons the ability to use Strength (thrown weapons have pretty good ranges for the most part and use Strength), its own saving throw, and most of the same effects from past editions as well. Prone isn’t as deadly in 5e as Pathfinder, but it still grants advantage, which can quickly add up. So a character shoving an opponent to open them up to easy hits can be a pretty impactful move. Grapple is...eh, but stops all movement modes, so it is theoretically possible to deal with fliers if you can somehow grapple them before they get too far. So someone leaping up at someone (like a monk), could grapple them back to the ground.
Taking a page from this design philosophy, make Strength an impactful stat outside of just hitting stuff and doing damage, and you’ll eliminate 90% of the problems with the severe disparity between the effectiveness of Strength investment and Dexterity investment.
And by impactful, I don’t mean obligatorily necessary like the suggestion for Strength impacting AC that is in another thread (neat in theory though, and isn’t entirely a bad idea just overall too complicated). A good system should make both stats meaningful without crippling a character for NOT investing in that stat/feature. It should be a matter of trade-offs for effectiveness, not forcing a character to be balancing multiple stats at once to function at all.
That was the problem ALREADY with P1e, and would honestly end up being a step backwards rather than forwards.
If 2e uses str and con for fort save/defense then dex to damage will not be as big of a deal. Not that I have any problem in my games with it anyway.
At this point I think we will see some dex to damage. I hope not but I think it will happen. I think the game is better off without it but what ya gonna do?
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All indications are that Fighters don't get Armor Training in PF2.And if they did, it would almost certainly be a Proficiency boost, which is a flat AC enhancer the game is already balanced around, rather than something different and Dex-based.
I would imagine things that were in fighter Armor Training will now be available to anyone who devotes the feats to armor proficiency levels. I'm guessing that becoming Expert or Master in armor will likely help with things like movement rate and Max Dex; possibly even ASF if that's still a thing. It's not going to just be +1 AC for each rank.
So I imagine if you spend enough of your combat feats on armor proficiency, you could have your high-Dex full plate guy. Even on a ranger or rogue.
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I would imagine things that were in fighter Armor Training will now be available to anyone who devotes the feats to armor proficiency levels. I'm guessing that becoming Expert or Master in armor will likely help with things like movement rate and Max Dex; possibly even ASF if that's still a thing. It's not going to just be +1 AC for each rank.
So I imagine if you spend enough of your combat feats on armor proficiency, you could have your high-Dex full plate guy. Even on a ranger or rogue.
Well, maybe. We actually don't know if you can use Feats to increase Proficiency level on Armor, Weapons, or Saves. Indeed, some of the indications are that you cannot (or at least can't get above Expert...it was strongly implied that Evasion, the effect of Master Level Reflex Saves was still class locked to some degree).
I'm totally fine if we can, mind you, but that idea is not necessarily entirely supported by the data we have, y'know?
In any case, Fighters certainly don't get it by default, and even if it is available by Feat, we're probably talking 3 of the 5 total General Feats you ever get to boost it all the way.
There are strong indications it comes built in for Paladins, though.
At this point I think we will see some dex to damage. I hope not but I think it will happen. I think the game is better off without it but what ya gonna do?
Rogues get it at level 1 apparently so it is at the very least going to be in the play test in one form or another.
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At this point I think we will see some dex to damage. I hope not but I think it will happen. I think the game is better off without it but what ya gonna do?Rogues get it at level 1 apparently so it is at the very least going to be in the play test in one form or another.
Technically all we know is Rogues can get it at level 1. It might be a Class Feat or something like that which not all Rogues will have.
DND 5e just straight up gives dex to damage not just on finesse weapons but ranged weapons as well, I think as long as the number of attacks you can hit with such a character is no longer in crazytown territory that just flat giving it to those weapon types with no feat required is fine.That is one of the worst things about 5e in my opinion. Outside of a few niche builds everyone can safely dump Str.No they can’t. Not if they don’t want to get shredded by monsters bigger than them. Remember, Strength is a saving throw and is often associated with being heavily displaced, grappled, throttled, or just straight up mauled horribly. Some pretty big monsters will do very nasty things to you if they managed to get those effects of. Most famous being a mindflayer oneshotting you in a grapple. Reduce strength at your own peril.
But that’s the thing. 5e actually made Strength a significant stat by increasing the value of weapon dice (all strength weapons have the highest damage dice), giving ranged weapons the ability to use Strength (thrown weapons have pretty good ranges for the most part and use Strength), its own saving throw, and most of the same effects from past editions as well. Prone isn’t as deadly in 5e as Pathfinder, but it still grants advantage, which can quickly add up. So a character shoving an opponent to open them up to easy hits can be a pretty impactful move. Grapple is...eh, but stops all movement modes, so it is theoretically possible to deal with fliers if you can somehow grapple them before they get too far. So someone leaping up at someone (like a monk), could grapple them back to the ground.
Taking a page from this design philosophy, make Strength an impactful stat outside of just hitting stuff and doing damage, and you’ll eliminate 90% of the problems with the severe disparity between the effectiveness of Strength investment and Dexterity investment.
And by impactful, I don’t mean obligatorily necessary like the...
You can avoid grapples and shoves using dexterity (acrobatics) as well so you are not hurt on that front by going with dex over strength. For one handed weapons the damage dice is the same (1d8). Strength saves are rare compared to dex saves.
That said for PF2 I think using bulk will make tracking carrying capacity easier and therefore less commonly ignored (In my experience about half of GMs ignore it after character creation but that's not a huge sample size). Also removing initiative from dexterity makes them a lot more balanced.
Technically all we know is Rogues can get it at level 1. It might be a Class Feat or something like that which not all Rogues will have.At this point I think we will see some dex to damage. I hope not but I think it will happen. I think the game is better off without it but what ya gonna do?Rogues get it at level 1 apparently so it is at the very least going to be in the play test in one form or another.
Word of mouth from Garycon hasn’t really revealed much other than it’s there. All that is known is that they get it either voluntarily or part of the class, and at least by level 1. If so, why not take it? If it is part of the class, the option is basically there to be used.
‘about 5e sorry i’m on a tablet and its hard to navigate’
You are right that one-handed weapons cap at 1d8, but rapiers are only piercing, and are not versatile (bumping the damage to 1d10, which is important mostly for small races who can’t use the two-handed heavy weapons), Most Dex weapons have piercing in fact. They are also very easily outclassed by two-handed weapons, which almost all boast a 2d6 or 1d12.
Additionally, fighter in full plate and sword and board has higher defense’s than a dex fighter in studded leather due to how their stats cap out, but equal damage. Even a two-handed fighter/paladin using the Defense fighting style matches the AC of that dex character while using a two-handed weapon, outclassing them completely in terms of damage and matching their defense. Again, Strength is better here.
You mentioned you haven’t much experience in the system and it definitely shows. No single stat is necessarily dominant. But Dex, if anything, is a bit on the weak side since martial don’t typically need it very much at all, with most of their bases covered by Strength (unless they are a rogue or monk who exclusively uses Dex and benefits from it the most, but whose damage is gated by abilities and resource expenditure to keep up with other characters who get it innately from Strength), and have plenty of health to avoid damage from failed Dex saves, where as failing Strength saves could put them in considerably more dangerous positions by opening up to bursts of damage from multiattacks. While they are uncommon compared to Dex or Wis, rare types of saves (like the infamous Cha save, or ‘I’m being flung into the Plane of Fire if I fail this’ save) tend to carry much heavier prices for failure, and that is true for Strength as well. They often leave you extremely vulnerable to the more deadly effects of enemy attacks.
Yeah, comparing one handed weapons between dex and strength ignores that the big advantage tends to be two-handed weapons. Other advantages of two-handed weapons include it being easier to free up a hand to cast an arcane spell, throw a javelin, grapple, or manipulate an object. (Not being able to turn a door knob is a silly reason to have your turn messed up.)
You definitely can avoid shoves and grapples via either Athletics or Acrobatics, but you can only initiate it via Athletics. This does not make one better than the other. What that means is that they are equally as powerful as a defense stat, but Strength is the superior offense stat.
You are right that one-handed weapons cap at 1d8, but rapiers are only piercing, and are not versatile (bumping the damage to 1d10, which is important mostly for small races who can’t use the two-handed heavy weapons), Most Dex weapons have piercing in fact. They are also very easily outclassed by two-handed weapons, which almost all boast a 2d6 or 1d12.
I am not saying the stat is useless but rather it can be dumped by most characters. Yes there are viable strength builds. Shoving, great weapon master, pole arm sentinel etc. But if you are a character who is not planning on specializing in Strength (a magic focused paladin or a war cleric for example) than dexterity will get you more than strength.
Additionally, fighter in full plate and sword and board has higher defense’s than a dex fighter in studded leather due to how their stats cap out, but equal damage. Even a two-handed fighter/paladin using the Defense fighting style matches the AC of that dex character while using a two-handed weapon, outclassing them completely in terms of damage and matching their defense. Again, Strength is better here.
One less armor class. Full Plate 18 +2 Shield) vs (Studded Leather 12 +5 Dex +2 Shield. And the dex based character has far superior initiative which is significant.
You mentioned you haven’t much experience in the system and it definitely shows. No single stat is necessarily dominant. But Dex, if anything, is a bit on the weak side since martial don’t typically need it very much at all, with most of their bases covered by Strength (unless they are a rogue or monk who exclusively uses Dex and benefits from it the most, but whose damage is gated by abilities and resource expenditure to keep up with other characters who get it innately from Strength), and have plenty of health to avoid damage from failed Dex saves, where as failing Strength saves could put them in considerably more dangerous positions by opening up to bursts of damage from multiattacks. While they are uncommon compared to Dex or Wis, rare types of saves (like the infamous Cha save, or ‘I’m being flung into the Plane of Fire if I fail this’ save) tend to carry much heavier prices for failure, and that is true for Strength as well. They often leave you extremely vulnerable to the more deadly effects of enemy attacks.
You're right. I haven't played a ton of 5e and I have never played high level 5e so maybe there are a lot of strength saves with terrible costs for failure that make it more balanced. In my experience with low level play however dex was superior or str since initiative is important and dex saves were a lot more common than str saves.
It is also definitely possible that my opinion is tinged by my personal experience in 5e. My last character was a Str based tempest cleric in a party where everyone else dumped Str and besides being the second pack mule for the parties stuff (the first one was an actual mule) I didn't feel like I had any benefit from going the Str route other than flavor and I was always last in initiative. I thought this was indicative of a poor game design choice.
However I feel we have gone down a rabbit hole and I don't really want to continue talking about 5e on the Pathfinder Forums. I will consider what you have said should I have the opportunity to play 5e again, perhaps I was too harsh.
Dex to damage can work fine if your system balances around it. De-emphasize dexterity and emphasize strength in other areas.
- Dex weapons could to have a lower base damage
- Sufficient strength could even enable a character to wield REALLY heavy weapons (and no, this doesn't mean Final Fantasy style buster swords, there are still many degrees of separation between that and a traditional greatsword)
- Dex to AC can be offset by providing better protection from heavy armor, which then requires strength to wear effectively
- Strength to hit with composite bows and thrown weapons
- Making combat maneuvers more viable by removing AoOs against them helps strength out quite a bit and makes it the more effective choice for a melee focussed character
- Dex has already been confirmed to no longer be the primary initiative stat
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I've played the FFG Star Wars RPG, where there are six ability scores, and each ability score has an option to learn a light saber fighting style that focuses on that ability. The differences aren't just "stat that influences attack and damage," but also really unique options.
'Str' is best at parrying melee attacks and defending your allies.
'Dex' is best at harming foes who are off-guard, or moving through combat.
There isn't really Con.
'Int - Knowledge' is kinda all-around decent and is a blend of weapon and Force techniques.
'Int - Cunning' is best at reflecting ranged attacks and weird tricks like throwing your saber.
'Wis' is a mix of defensive abilities and is good at parry and reflect.
'Cha' is best at demoralizing foes with intimidation so they mess up.
So, um, just make the options varied and interesting, and don't let single-stat characters do everything, and we're good.