Malazan Book of the Fallen series and C / M


Prerelease Discussion


Since we are looking at how to address C/M disparity again with a new edition, I wanted to talk about how this book series balances these character concepts.

Mages are crazy powerful. They can destroy armies, transverse the planes, live a really long time, heal wounds, ect. But many of these things come with caveats. Mages fairly different power can counter each other. Planar travel is dangerous. Most really powerful ancients are eternally imprisoned. And "force healing" with magic can cause psychological problems. Mages also rarely attract followers or inspire loyalty. Magic is scary to most people and mages are unnaturally off putting. Generally because they are too drunk on power or too careful about drawing attention.

Warriors aren't jumping over mountains or causing earthquakes unless they are ascended immortals that gained magic powers. But extremely skilled martials are feared. They can kill mages before they cast a spell and chop up monsters with speed and precision. Alchemy can keep a person living indefinitely and creates explosives that feed off the power of the target, meaning they can kill just about anything or anyone. Skilled warriors command armies with their own sappers and mages to counter anything out of reach of their sword.

When reading these books, martials don't feel like less important characters while mages still seem powerful.


The C/M disparity has always been a problem DMs and PCs war of attrition. burning spells before the fighters and such have to stop to heal. from the 4part playtest on "glass cannon" it looks like the extra hp and healing not coming from the spell pull does a good chunk to help the DMs have a smooth fight with the attrition.


MR. H wrote:
Skilled warriors command armies
MR. H wrote:
Mages are crazy powerful. They can destroy armies

Now, that is not a fair quote, because you said that Warriors have their own Mages, but if we're talking about how Casters compare to Martial characters, this is still a very relevant point.

The big thing a Martial character can do is lead an army. Which a Mage can destroy. And the defense against that, is to have your own Mage to stop that. So the warrior doesn't actually matter there, just whether the mages nullify each other. Or I guess if someone can set off a bomb, that does sound cool.

The Mages of the story are limited, I am to understand, by how they're roleplayed. They can't have armies because the theoretical Players running them all dumped Charisma. And in that campaign setting, magic is scary and unnatural. But, as far as I understand it, in Golarion these things aren't true. In many settings, Magic is accepted and is just some wonderful thing. Mages aren't feared, they're just rare.

The Warriors of this story can kill mages, if they get to them, before they can cast a spell. Which is good, but if the Mages weren't roleplayed to be unlikable, they could probably lead armies too, while destroying armies that Warriors lead.

I haven't read the books, so I'm going completely off your post and the inherent bias I have because I don't like the C/M disparity. It reads to me that the Writer (DM) solves the disparity by favoring Warriors and giving them situations where they can defeat the Mages. Instead of being wiped out when the mages destroy those armies.

So the martial characters no doubt feel important, but its because of a set of assumptions that don't really carry to Pathfinder:
Magic is scary.
No one likes Mages.
Mages will roleplay to isolate themselves, Wariors will not.

What works in a book, where the writer controls all characters, is not easily translated into a game of five-six people all making decisions independently about their character. Giving Mage players lots and lots of power and then just trusting them to not use it to dominate the game, while the DM tries to cater to the Warrior players, is effectively what we have right now.

And it works for lots of people, there's no denying that. But the people (myself included) who talk about the disparity a lot and bring it up constantly, are not likely to be satisfied by that answer. This series does sound like it has cool ideas, the bombs and sappers sounded interesting, but I don't think those ideas would solve the problems lots of people have.


I think the difference that I'm seeing is that Mages can get killed by a stray arrow while mighty Warriors would just dodge the arrow. Mages have to be more careful because without martial prowess they get killed more easily.

Mages aren't all anti social but the few that are tend to ascend into godhood and have to start playing those games. Warriors can ascend too, but at that point both are gods, have magic, and followers. Which at some point in high levels you could decide "F-it everyone has something like magic now".

I'm only bringing it up because it's an example I know of where Martials and High Mages are equally cool without martial needing magic powers.


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MR. H wrote:

I think the difference that I'm seeing is that Mages can get killed by a stray arrow while mighty Warriors would just dodge the arrow. Mages have to be more careful because without martial prowess they get killed more easily.

Mages aren't all anti social but the few that are tend to ascend into godhood and have to start playing those games. Warriors can ascend too, but at that point both are gods, have magic, and followers. Which at some point in high levels you could decide "F-it everyone has something like magic now".

I'm only bringing it up because it's an example I know of where Martials and High Mages are equally cool without martial needing magic powers.

Stray arrow killing would be a factor, yeah. That would make the magic situation in Pathfinder different. But PCs have to play said Mage who dies to the arrow, and then someone else has to play the Warrior protecting them. It would reinforce Mages needing Warriors, but also be very annoying when the stray arrows come in and Warriors are left without party members. It would keep Warriors more relevant though, so that's a tick in its favor.

I am saying though that this set-up works in a book, where the writer makes things go perfectly according to plan and its impossible for the Warrior or Mage to examine their place in the narrative or why they are doing something unless the writer says they can. If its groups of people trying the same balancing act, things fall apart often.

I think its a cool book series that doesn't have the answer that most C/M disparity people are looking for.

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