The Half-Orcs

[J-Bone]

With this new edition coming out, might we do away with the Half-Orc and its rapey implications? I know people are going to chime in about orc love but really, the implications have always been that these children don't come from the most loving of circumstances. Perhaps we can replace them with full orcs as a PC race?

[Dale McCoy Jr]

The thing I noticed is that there still isn't a half orc core book Signature Character. Even goblins are getting one. But not half orcs.

[J-Bone]

I'd love to see the full orc... Half-Orcs, not so much. I know they have their roots with Tolkien and all that. I think the rapey background implications had them removed from 2nd Edition core if memory serves.

[Dragonborn3]

As it's still tied to Golorian, and actually even more so, the answer is likely no.

[scary harpy]

I'd like Orcs as a PC race. I'd like Half-Dwarves as a PC Race. I don't mind Goblins as a PC race...but I like several other races as PC races as well.

[Sadida]

Maybe Half-[Race] will be a racial heritage option. Not for a specific race, I'd hope at least, but instead as part of a universal list.

Also possible they just keep it the same way. Got to wait till more info is released about how character creation happens.

[Kargush]

Keep half-orcs, but work to remove the implications. I love them as a thing, but the "lul, rape" background should be done away with, as should the "orc are always evil hordes of raping looters barely able to sustain iron-age tech."

[MidsouthGuy]

I love Orcs. Orcs are wild and ferocious and free of emotional restraint in a way humans just aren't. If an Orc likes something then he LOVES it and wants it all for himself, if an Orc hates something then he wants to murder it and its entire family as painfully as possible, and if an Orc doesn't care then that thing might as well not exist to him. Orcs are direct, brutal, and to the point. Their first breath is a scream of rage, and their last breath had better be a cry of victory. Yes, I am very much a fan of Orcs.

But Half-Orcs make me sick. They're moody, brooding, cliched little jerks who either whine at not having a great home life or are portrayed as dumb brutes barely able to speak. Half-Orcs are a ridiculous, watered down version of something that I love, and they SUCK.

So yeah, I would love to see Half-Orcs replaced.

[Orthos]

MidsouthGuy wrote:

I love Orcs. Orcs are wild and ferocious and free of emotional restraint in a way humans just aren't. If an Orc likes something then he LOVES it and wants it all for himself, if an Orc hates something then he wants to murder it and its entire family as painfully as possible, and if an Orc doesn't care then that thing might as well not exist to him. Orcs are direct, brutal, and to the point. Their first breath is a scream of rage, and their last breath had better be a cry of victory. Yes, I am very much a fan of Orcs.

I removed Half-Orcs from my homebrew setting and our Orcs are loosely based off the Jaegers from Girl Genius. This is a wonderful description and I'm going to steal it with all due credit. Good on you, sir.

[Matthias W]

I was about to reply "well, it depends on how you frame it;" both Eberron and 4e (and probably others) were full of suggestions about where half-orcs came from, other than that. But! Any setting where there's normal peaceful social relations between humans and orcs is one in which it makes sense to just make orcs the core race in question instead. And I like the more sympathetic readings of orcs in general - it's always left an unpleasant taste in my mouth when intelligent but natural beings like us are simply portrayed as evil, and orcs in particular have always been a repository of the stereotypes states have made about stateless people in order to justify murdering them.

[Dragonborn3]

MidsouthGuy wrote:

But Half-Orcs make me sick. They're moody, brooding, cliched little jerks who either whine at not having a great home life or are portrayed as dumb brutes barely able to speak. Half-Orcs are a ridiculous, watered down version of something that I love, and they SUCK.

If it helps/matters, I have never played a half-orc like that.

[Patrick Newcarry]

MidsouthGuy wrote:

I love Orcs. Orcs are wild and ferocious and free of emotional restraint in a way humans just aren't. If an Orc likes something then he LOVES it and wants it all for himself, if an Orc hates something then he wants to murder it and its entire family as painfully as possible, and if an Orc doesn't care then that thing might as well not exist to him. Orcs are direct, brutal, and to the point. Their first breath is a scream of rage, and their last breath had better be a cry of victory. Yes, I am very much a fan of Orcs.

But Half-Orcs make me sick. They're moody, brooding, cliched little jerks who either whine at not having a great home life or are portrayed as dumb brutes barely able to speak. Half-Orcs are a ridiculous, watered down version of something that I love, and they SUCK.

So yeah, I would love to see Half-Orcs replaced.

I don't know if you've seen Critical Role (I know, 5e!, but still, they have their roots in PF) but in their newest campaign, Fjord the Half-orc is a hexblade warlock with a gentlemanly southern accent that suggests a respectable upbringing. What I'm trying to say here is that though the race may be portrayed in a bad light, there are always heroes and adventurers that rise above their race's norms.

[Arutema]

J-Bone wrote:

With this new edition coming out, might we do away with the Half-Orc and its rapey implications? I know people are going to chime in about orc love but really, the implications have always been that these children don't come from the most loving of circumstances. Perhaps we can replace them with full orcs as a PC race?

Not sure if troll. That was the exact reasons WotC gave when they cut half-orcs from 4e, a move that did not go over well.

[David knott 242]

Arutema wrote:

J-Bone wrote:

With this new edition coming out, might we do away with the Half-Orc and its rapey implications? I know people are going to chime in about orc love but really, the implications have always been that these children don't come from the most loving of circumstances. Perhaps we can replace them with full orcs as a PC race?

Not sure if troll. That was the exact reasons WotC gave when they cut half-orcs from 4e, a move that did not go over well.

They weren't cut -- just deferred to the 2nd PHB. Gnomes didn't make the initial cut either.

[Matthias W]

David knott 242 wrote:

They weren't cut -- just deferred to the 2nd PHB. Gnomes didn't make the initial cut either.

Here's how it introduces half-orcs, FWIW:

PHB2 wrote:

An obscure legend claims that when Corellon put out Gruumsh’s eye in a primeval battle, part of the savage god’s essence fell to earth, where it transformed a race of humans into fierce half-orcs. Another story suggests that an ancient hobgoblin empire created half-orcs to lead orc tribes on the empire’s behalf. Yet another legend claims that a tribe of brutal human barbarians chose to breed with orcs to strengthen their bloodline. Some say that Kord created half-orcs, copying the best elements from the human and orc races to make a strong and fierce people after his own heart. If you ask a half-orc about his origin, you might hear one of these stories. You might also get a punch in the face for asking such a rude question.

So it's not sweeping the classic origin under the rug, but it's also putting some alternative front and center. (None of those stories suggest that individual orcs and individual humans might just decide to shack up with each other, as people so often do, but maybe that's too obvious to be spelled out.)

[JoelF847]

Whatever implications are inferred about half-orcs aren't related to their inclusion in the rules. It's how they're handled in a campaign setting. Look to Eberron for an example where there's no history of orc conquest resulting in half-orcs. If you don't want the rapey implications of half-orcs, the 2E rules aren't the right target.

Also, any half-X race has the same potential for parentage - I'm sure some half-elves are product of rape, even if that was due to an elven (or drow) using charm person rather than a greataxe.

For what it's worth, I want a game that reflects the good and horrible enough to allow a variety of character backgrounds and options, and to allow paragons to emulate and look up to as well as vile villainy to hate and try to vanquish.

[Invictus Novo]

I'd just like to see them get rid of half-orcs and half-elves altogether. Never liked the half-anything concept. Of course, the problem is that without some catestrophic event or perhaps some disease that made interspecies mating impossible they wouldn't be able to separate them from the lore.

[PossibleCabbage]

Honestly the way to fix the implications of sexual violence inherent in half-orcs (and honestly a lot of the reason they're there is that Gygax put them there), is to make Orcs an actual valid and healthy culture and not this brutish, savage "other.΅

Like in my homebrew setting orcs are a culture deeply passionate about mathematics and natural philosophy, always driving forward to learn and explore, and if they are imperialistic it is to disseminate their particular flavor of enlightenment- they are thinkers and delvers not builders or tinkers. So there's nothing unusual about a marriage between an orc and anybody else who also values these things.

[Greylurker]

They did that in 4E and people got pissed.

Also nothing about Half-Orc has to be "Rapey" Look at Lord of the Rings. Saruman used Magic to combine Orcs and Men into a new race.

[Threeshades]

MidsouthGuy wrote:

I love Orcs. Orcs are wild and ferocious and free of emotional restraint in a way humans just aren't. If an Orc likes something then he LOVES it and wants it all for himself, if an Orc hates something then he wants to murder it and its entire family as painfully as possible, and if an Orc doesn't care then that thing might as well not exist to him. Orcs are direct, brutal, and to the point. Their first breath is a scream of rage, and their last breath had better be a cry of victory. Yes, I am very much a fan of Orcs.

But Half-Orcs make me sick. They're moody, brooding, cliched little jerks who either whine at not having a great home life or are portrayed as dumb brutes barely able to speak. Half-Orcs are a ridiculous, watered down version of something that I love, and they SUCK.

So yeah, I would love to see Half-Orcs replaced.

Mst of the half-orcs ive seen in play were actually mostly cheerful fellows, yeah some of them a bit dumb, but thats because those were 3e half orcs who had a disproportionate amount of mental stat penalties.

Personally I would like to see half-orcs become something more interesting than what they are right now though. Think uruk-hai, who are ostensibly half-orcs, but they are more than just the incidental product of interracial mating. And generally considered mentally and physically superior to ordinary orcs. Basically the hobgoblins to the orcs' goblins.

[Arachnofiend]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Honestly the way to fix the implications of sexual violence inherent in half-orcs (and honestly a lot of the reason they're there is that Gygax put them there), is to make Orcs an actual valid and healthy culture and not this brutish, savage "other.΅

Like in my homebrew setting orcs are a culture deeply passionate about mathematics and natural philosophy, always driving forward to learn and explore, and if they are imperialistic it is to disseminate their particular flavor of enlightenment- they are thinkers and delvers not builders or tinkers. So there's nothing unusual about a marriage between an orc and anybody else who also values these things.

This... is completely unrecognizable as an orc. You might as well make it another human culture.

[ChibiNyan]

Arachnofiend wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Honestly the way to fix the implications of sexual violence inherent in half-orcs (and honestly a lot of the reason they're there is that Gygax put them there), is to make Orcs an actual valid and healthy culture and not this brutish, savage "other.΅

Like in my homebrew setting orcs are a culture deeply passionate about mathematics and natural philosophy, always driving forward to learn and explore, and if they are imperialistic it is to disseminate their particular flavor of enlightenment- they are thinkers and delvers not builders or tinkers. So there's nothing unusual about a marriage between an orc and anybody else who also values these things.

This... is completely unrecognizable as an orc. You might as well make it another human culture.

You're right.

Once a race becomes "human but green" (Or something like that), then it becomes just it's crunch (ability score mods!).

The lore, history and culture of each race is what truly defines it as something unique and interesting to roleplay. People don't like orcs because they are green (or gray or whatever), they like them because they are badass ass-kickers from a society that humans can't really understand.

So by changing the entire lore of a race so that only some of the mechanics are left, you essentially lose that race and make a new one with copy-paste traits.

I really dislike Half-Elf because they are either just an Elf with different stats or a Human with different stats (barely). But at least the half-orc gives players the taste of something new and exotic that they can't access otherwise (pure orc).

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Getting rid of some of the worst parts of the backstory/history (as was done in other editions and games whatnot) would go a long way.

There have been at least a couple of webcomics that had orcs as tribal beings with some savagery, some spiritualism, but decent enough folks once you got past the differences... and they just had some truly horrific leaders they felt they had no choice but to follow.

The history of some MMOs has it much the same way LOK'TAR O'GAR!.

It's possible to have orcs/half-orcs without it being about "We're mythological Vikings with green skin, come to do unsavory things to your village!"

It's not too much of a stretch to ask for the former without falling into the latter.

[Sara Marie]

Thanks for the feedback on half-orcs. I've removed some posts, and I'm going to leave the thread locked.