[Dreamscarred Press] Elan "Rest" and Power Points

[Erachu]

Hey all,

I'm in a bit of a debate with someone and hoping I can find something absolutely concrete rather than implicit.

They assert that the Elan description:

"Elans do not sleep as mortals do, instead entering a deep meditative trance for 4 hours a day. Resting in this fashion grants the elan the same benefits that other races gain from 8 hours of sleep. The elan spends the time in this trance renewing her body by suffusing it with psionic energy, repairing wounds, and keeping the tissues and organs healthy."

Means they can prepare spells or regain power points after just 4 hours of meditation, as opposed to the 8 hours of rest (sleep or not) required by all the other races I'm aware of.

They're latched on to the phrase "same benefits that other races gain from 8 hours of sleep", which means the general rule in the Psionics "Powers an Power Points" section talking about 8 hours of restful calm they feel has been overcome by that.

Which of us is right, and is there anything concrete the winner of this debate can point to to say "See, it's this and only this"?

I'd have posted this on the Dreamscarred site itself but can't register successfully.

[Anguish]

The benefit from being an Elan is that you only need to "rest" for 4 hours a night, meaning that a party's watch-order to make sure they don't get eaten by bears can be simpler.

Yes, an Elan gets their spells or power points back after performing that rest. They still can only do that once a day.

[Dale McCoy Jr]

Erachu wrote:

Means they can prepare spells or regain power points after just 4 hours of meditation, as opposed to the 8 hours of rest (sleep or not) required by all the other races I'm aware of.

They're latched on to the phrase "same benefits that other races gain from 8 hours of sleep", which means the general rule in the Psionics "Powers an Power Points" section talking about 8 hours of restful calm they feel has been overcome by that.

I'm not entirely sure I see the difference. An elan requires 4 hours of rest where a human requires 8. If you have a human psion and an elan psion in the party, the human would have to rest for 8 hours while the elan would require only 4.

To follow the link and do some extrapolating: If there is a single interruption in the night, the human would require 9 hours of rest while the elan would require 4.5 hours.

Is this the answer you were looking for?

[Erachu]

Heh, it sounds like things are leaning away from my position, and that's okay.

My position was that they still needed to rest for 8 hours because that's how caster classes have operated in 3.0 and 3.5 (where the elan were originally defined).

From the 3.5 handbook, elves who also only needed to meditate 4 hours a night (with basically identical wording) were identified in the preparing spells section as still needing to rest a full 8 hours before they could prepare spells/pray.

That wording was removed in pathfinder because elves in pathfinder do sleep, so the precedent isn't expressly present anymore.

In 3.5, it would have been easy to say that Elans, who have the same wording as elves when it comes to rest periods, still had to rest 8 hours to regain power points. The question I suppose comes down to "Did elans get a silent buff (it's not listed as a race feature after all) in the Pathfinder conversion?" for that purpose.

Alternate comments that my interpretation of the rules in 3.5 is wrong are also acceptable though I'd like to know why.

I'd also like to point out that the rules for gaining power points expressly say "If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before regaining power points." which is consistent with the wording in 3.5 for spellcasters (that made elves with their short sleep still have to take 8 hours).

[Anguish]

This could just be a matter of editing for word-count to fit in a book. Or it could be a conscious decision to make psionics a little bit different.

I can offer that in Dreamscarred Press' first psionics book, Psionics Unleashed, the boilerplate text from 3.5e EPH was still present regarding yada yada elves need 8 hours too. The compilation into Ultimate Psionics seems to be when that text was excised, while the general rules were re-written for clarity and accessibility.

I get it that there's a gap. While Elan are a seemingly simple exception, what do you do with the precedent? For instance, a (non-mindless) undead psion, which don't need to sleep at all. Personally, I kind of like the idea of sleepless creatures working different from a flavor standpoint. I'd love to imagine an undead caster who just gets points back exactly 24 hours after he consumes them. BING! "Hey adventurer, you're screwed now because I just got back 6 points and can manifest horrible power." But awkward book-keeping for players and DMs.

RAW, it would appear ambiguous, though if you'd like to reinforce your position, it does say "as casters", which basically invokes the boilerplate in Paizo's Core.

Point is, Elan as written get the benefits of 8 hours rest in 4. But your argument isn't without merit.

[Erachu]

Anguish wrote:

Point is, Elan as written get the benefits of 8 hours rest in 4. But your argument isn't without merit.

I suppose so. Wonder what it would take to get the question raised to someone at Dreamscarred. Like I mentioned in my first post, I couldn't successfully register for their forums (site crashes trying to send validation emails.)

Thanks.

[Thedmstrikes]

I am not a member of Dreamscarred Press, but I happen to own a copy of Ultimate Psionics and have reviewed the relevant sections. The wording in UP is similar if not exact to the wording for arcane spellcasters in the CRB. Even if you do not "sleep" for 8 hours, you must still do nothing for an eight hour period (minus interruptions which each add one hour to the limit), such as cast spells, combat, manifesting psionics, movement (such as overland movement or any other "strenuous" activity), etc. Finally, if you manifest powers during the last eight hours of the rest/interruption cycle prior to regaining power points, they count against the new days total, just like casting spells during the last eight hour period before memorizing new spells. I hope this helps resolve your argument.

[Anguish]

Thedmstrikes wrote:

The wording in UP is similar if not exact to the wording for arcane spellcasters in the CRB.

Sorry, but I'm morbidly curious now. I searched my PDF for several related phrases and didn't come up with what you're referencing. Could you give me a page number please?

[Dale McCoy Jr]

Going back and reading the entry as opposed to what I vaguely remember and what was posted in this thread, I could see it interpreted either way. Since it is not an actual racial benefit and is just description, I don't know. I mean, in my own game, I'd just say, "sure, you rest for 4 and then can be on watch the rest of the night," but that's me.

[Erachu]

Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

Going back and reading the entry as opposed to what I vaguely remember and what was posted in this thread, I could see it interpreted either way. Since it is not an actual racial benefit and is just description, I don't know. I mean, in my own game, I'd just say, "sure, you rest for 4 and then can be on watch the rest of the night," but that's me.

I think I'm not quite sure what your overall interpretation is.

Are you considering standing watch to be a restful behavior, and thus 4 hours of meditation + 4 hours of uneventful watch = 8 hours rest?

Or are you considering their 4 hour meditation enough to regain power points and thus free them to do what they must (so if the watch turns into an attack, they've already regained powers for example).

[Dale McCoy Jr]

Erachu wrote:

Or are you considering their 4 hour meditation enough to regain power points and thus free them to do what they must (so if the watch turns into an attack, they've already regained powers for example).

This.

[Anguish]

Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

Erachu wrote:

Or are you considering their 4 hour meditation enough to regain power points and thus free them to do what they must (so if the watch turns into an attack, they've already regained powers for example).

This.

For the record, I'm with Dale; I'd rule the same way at my table, and call it "an incredibly situational but flavorful racial difference".

Beyond low-level - at least in my experience - night interruptions aren't an issue. At my table this would be a racial ability that would almost never be observed beyond about 5th level. But we don't tend to do many dungeon crawls anymore.

[KahnyaGnorc]

Specific beats general.
8 hour rule is general.
Elan 4 hour rule is specific.

[Erachu]

Alright, unless someone from Dreamscarred wants to come in and voice the final ruling, I suppose I've been outvoted.

My stance was that Elan didn't have this ability in 3.5.

It appears they've gotten a stealth buff (on top of their documented ones), good for them.

[Thedmstrikes]

Anguish wrote:

Thedmstrikes wrote:

The wording in UP is similar if not exact to the wording for arcane spellcasters in the CRB.

Sorry, but I'm morbidly curious now. I searched my PDF for several related phrases and didn't come up with what you're referencing. Could you give me a page number please?

Page 131 in Ultimate Psionics Limited Edition from the kickstarter by Dreamscarred Press (sorry, but I know there are different versions out there). Specifically under the heading Powers and Power Points in chapter 4 Psionics. Remember to read the entire paragraph which discusses prep time as the specific passage is at the end of the paragraph after it discusses the generic 8 hour rest rule.

"If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before regaining power points."

Erachu is correct in observing that specific rules often trump general rules, but in this case the specific rule (which by the way describes what occurs during the four hour rest period, but is conspicuously silent about spell and power point refreshment) is overrode by an additional specific rule.

There are other ways besides a character race to get reduced sleep requirements. If I remember correctly, there is a ring of sustenance that does something like this. Maybe it was a modified one. Memory on this is kind of vague.

[KahnyaGnorc]

There are races that don't need sleep at all, including the Forgeborn and an alternative racial bonus for Duergar, but they would still need 8 hours of rest to regain power points (or spells, if they cast). That rule mirrors the rules for regaining spells.

The Elan racial, certain Mythic abilities, and Ring of Sustenance all shorten the 8 hour period, for both spells and power points.

[Here4daFreeSwag]

Heh, if you're still concerned about the whole balancing of regaining PPs between the various psionic races, maybe run some sorta house-rule by your players (see if they'll buy in to it) that Elans, after finishing up their shortened trance time, gain half their total PPs back; maybe even make a new racial feat that allows them the full PP gain back (heck, even make it in increments of +25% each if you're really feeling strict). ;)

P.S. even in 2015's Psionics Unleashed Revised, the wording about Elan trancing is still about the same, along with the whole 8 hour rest spiel. ;)

[Anguish]

Thedmstrikes wrote:

Page 131 in Ultimate Psionics Limited Edition from the kickstarter by Dreamscarred Press (sorry, but I know there are different versions out there).

"If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before regaining power points."

Well, weird. I agree, that is absolutely present in the same PDF I searched. I used "8 hours" as one of my criteria so I don't know how that wasn't matched.

The discussion is over; the text remains present, Elan do not get an exception because their text doesn't say "this is an exception to the rule that disallows exceptions."

[Erachu]

Huh, that reversed quickly. I should concede my position more often.

[kellyR]

So I'm Erachu's DM in the game in question.

My ruling has been that an Elan regains their PP in 4 hours of meditation.

The reason for this is that while the text reads "If the character does not need to sleep for some reason...", the Elan ability doesn't merely say they don't need to sleep. It says you get "...the same benefits that other races gain from 8 hours of sleep."

That to me is a specific rule that says for Elans, 4 hours of meditation = 8 hours of sleep, and can be substituted anywhere 8 hours of sleep is needed.

That's different from simply not needing sleep.

The 3.5 XPH had a more specific text following that: "For example, elf psionic characters need 8 hours of rest to clear their minds, even though they need only 4 hours of trance to refresh their bodies."

That specific wording was cut from the DSP Psionics Unleashed (I have a pdf of it, and it definitely lacks that sentence), and Ultimate Psionics.

With that wording, I have to concede that since the 3.5 Player's Handbook used the same wording for Elves as XPH used for Elans, it would probably apply to the Elan meditation as well.

However. I'm a RAW kind of person. Generally, unless something is just completely out of whack to me, I don't go trying to figure out the developers' intent, as that way lies madness, and frankly it doesn't matter because I'm the DM and have absolute power :D

So since I'm not going to strain my brain figuring out whether they cut that sentence as a deliberate intentional thing, or just because of space constraints and elves not being sleepless by default in Pathfinder... All I can do is look at the phrasing that does exist for pathfinder, and I conclude that the wording in Elan trumps the wording in Psionics Unleashed/Ultimate Psionics, by virtue of specificity over generality.

This would not carry over to say, intelligent undead, as they do not have the specific wording that grants them the benefits of 8 hours of sleep for a reduced period of meditation.

[Anguish]

kellyR, I hear you, and I'm sure you can see from above that I (originally) leaned in the direction of allow-it-because-it's-cool, but I also came around when given page references.

UP, page 131 as written is clear.

"If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before regaining power points."

While an Elan does not need to sleep for 8 hours for purposes of regaining hit points, there is a rule that explicitly covers the circumstance of characters who do not need to sleep for 8 hours. They are not exempt. They still need to rest, for 8 hours. The Elan's text regarding its nightly ritual does not in any way suggest that it overrides the blanket rule. All it does is put the Elan (like elves) into a category that the general rule covers (those that don't need to sleep for 8 hours).

The benefits acquired by being Elan or similar sadly works out to pretty much natural healing, not being fatigued due to lack of sleep, and... I think that's about it. The crafting rules are so messed up that even if you weren't trying to get power points back, those extra 4 hours don't benefit you. Sigh.

By all means, at your table do as you please... I repeat, I like the idea of an Elan getting power points back in 4 hours of rest, but if you genuinely are "a RAW kind of person", that's... not what the rules actually say.