Enforcer+Shatter Defenses

[Syries]

I'm currently making a Slayer with Enforcer, Shatter Defenses, and Sap Master feats. Went human, with Bludgeoner, Accomplished Sneak Attacker, and took the Menacing ranger combat style, so the build is all set starting at level 7.

Shatter Defenses seems to be a poorly worded feat, however.

Quote:

Benefit: Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round.

From my understanding, in order to make your opponent flat-footed, you have to meet two separate conditions:

1) You have to hit them
2) They have to be shaken, frightened, or panicked

Say I full attack a target who has not been shaken. On a successful hit dealing nonlethal damage, I free-action demoralize through Enforcer. On a successful intimidate check, they are shaken for a solid 2-3 minutes, again thanks to Enforcer. For my second attack and beyond on the full attack action, the conditions seem to be met in order to make my opponent flat-footed, though the order of operations is off; I hit them when they weren't intimidated, and now they are intimidated.

Am I right in assuming that the rest of my follow up attack in that same round goes against flat-footed AC?

In addition, since Enforcer extends the duration to an absurd length of time, assuming I continue attacking the same target and hit at least once each round, would they continuously be flat-footed against my attacks?

[Wonderstell]

The opponent needs to be 'shaken, frightened, or panicked' before you hit them.

I don't recommend to take flavor text as proof, but in this case it might help.

Shatter Defenses, Fluff text wrote:

Your skill with your chosen weapon leaves opponents unable to defend themselves if you strike them when their defenses are already compromised.

Think of the feat as applying a debuff on the opponent. This debuff is only applied if you hit a 'shaken, frightened, or panicked' opponent.

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So you'd require one attack (vs normal AC) to trigger Enforcer.
Then a 2nd attack (vs normal AC) to trigger Shatter Defenses.
Any attack after that is vs Flat-Footed AC until the end of your next turn (including Attack of Opportunities).

And yes, as long as the opponent is Shaken, Shatter Defenses will continue to trigger against that opponent. So they would be continuously Flat-Footed against your attacks.

[Syries]

By the 2nd time an attack hits against the target, the conditions for Shatter Defenses is fulfilled. I dont see the feat as explicitly stating the target must already have the condition when the attack hits, just that the condition must be present on the same round as the target is hit. And the flavor text is just that-flavor.

[SlimGauge]

I agree with Wonderstell. If they weren't 'shaken, frightened, or panicked' before/as you hit them, then shatter defenses doesn't trigger.

[Moonclanger]

I also agree with Wonderstell.

[Baba Ganoush]

I too agree with Wonderstell. I have a PC that uses enforcer and a cruel weapon and do not trigger cruel's sickened condition (which stacks nicely with shaken) until the second hit (1st hit shakes (assuming I make the intimidate DC) 2nd hit sickens).

I will also state that the cruel weapon (above is very nice with enforcer as is the feat hurtful (combat)

[Syries]

While I still disagree, it looks like most people interpret the feat differently than I do. At least I should be able to afford boots of speed by level 7, so I could still get the flat-footed sap master damage on the third swing.

[Backpack]

I believe my interpretation is likely similar to your's syries. Let us just assume the enemy is already shaken by some other means as to not lead to extra confusion.

I interpret

Quote:

"Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round."

to mean that if you were to attack a shaken creature that first attack would be against it's flat footed AC.

To use your original method I believe it would be

Attack 1: Hit and apply the shaken condition
Attack 2: go to hit, is creature shaken, if yes, then all attacks are against flat footed.
Attack 3: still shaken, flat footed.

This is an unclear phrasing so I certainly understand how we can interpret it differently. Thus, you're going to be reliant on your GM's interpretation.

Also, do note that since your enforcer will likely shake the enemy for a while, your next round all your attacks will be against flat footed and if you hit even once you have reset the turn counter. The only way after that round will you stop having them shaken is if you don't hit them at all for a round or they remove the shaken condition.

[toastedamphibian]

I agree that, by the wording, they should become flatfooted immediately as soon as both conditions are met. Without Enforcer, this interpretation is fair, as intimidate checks get large fast, and have short durations.

But with enforcer existing, everyone elses answer is probably more in line with a sense of fair play.

[Syries]

Oh I wouldn't say that the first attack against a creature would go against flat-footed. Shatter Defenses, while having bad wording, still is pretty clear that you need to hit the target before they become flat-footed to your attacks, regardless of the condition they are in at the time of the first attack. The first hit certainly does not go against flat-footed; I argue that the 2nd should, while the rest of the posts here are saying that the target must already be shaken when I hit them to use Shatter Defenses (meaning the third hit would be the one that goes against flat-foot AC)

[Syries]

toastedamphibian wrote:

I agree that, by the wording, they should become flatfooted immediately as soon as both conditions are met. Without Enforcer, this interpretation is fair, as intimidate checks get large fast, and have short durations.

But with enforcer existing, everyone elses answer is probably more in line with a sense of fair play.

The issue with Pathfinder is that the rules don't change unless explicitly stated if you have one ability over the other, just because of what is interpreted as fair. If I use a standard action to intimidate someone, and beat the DC by 5, then next turn full attack, then every hit after the first hit should apply Shatter Defenses. Just because Enforcer is in play doesnt change the fact that every hit after the first should apply Shatter Defenses.

As I mentioned earlier- while I disagree with what the other posters have said about the required conditions of Shatter Defenses, I won't argue any ruling by a GM that I need to hit the target when they are already shaken. A 22 Str Slayer with power attack should have no problem getting in a good amount of damage, even without adding the Sap Master sneak attack damage on top.

[toastedamphibian]

Exactly. You hit them, deal your nonlethal damage, make your intimidate check. They are now a shaken creature that has been hit by you this turn. So by the text, they should be flatfooted following your sucessful intimidate check.

Everyone else wants it to read "Whenever you hit a shaken (etc) creature, they become flatfooted to your attacks until the end of your next turn", but that is not what it says. Is that the RAI? Maybe.

[willuwontu]

As backpack said above they should be flat-footed against your further attacks. Let me break down the logic.

Shatter Defenses wrote:

Benefit: Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round.

By its wording shatter defenses has a couple conditions that must be met for foes to be flat-footed to your attacks, these are:

1. They must be an opponent.
2. They need to have the shaken, frightened, or panicked condition.
3. They need have been hit by you this turn.

As long as all 3 of those conditions are met, they are flat-footed to your attacks.

So in the situation you gave they are your opponent (check off 1) initially.
After you attack hopefully you've hit them (check off 3).
And then you demoralize them as free action after dealing non-lethal damage (check off 2).
Since you've met all 3 requirements they are now flat-footed to your further attacks.

Note that if they had the shaken, frightened, or panicked condition prior to your first attack, assuming you make their ac when you roll, you hit and your damage is dealt while they are considered flat-footed, so any effects that trigger when you deal damage (not hit, they aren't considered flat-footed until after you hit) to a flat-footed opponent would trigger.

[Wonderstell]

Shatter Defenses (Combat) wrote:

Your skill with your chosen weapon leaves opponents unable to defend themselves if you strike them when their defenses are already compromised.

Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, base attack bonus +6, proficiency with weapon.

Benefit: Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round.

There are two points of contention regarding this feat.

1) Is my opponent Flat-Footed against the attack that triggered Shatter Defenses?
2) When does Shatter Defenses trigger?

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The answer to 1) is quite easy: No.

Consider the feat text.

Shatter Defenses wrote:

(a) Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn.

(b) This includes any additional attacks you make this round.

(a) clearly states that the attack (the hit) needs to have happened before the effect triggers. Not to mention that the sentence (b) would be redundant if this wasn't the case.

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The division on 2) is created by how you interpret the condition(s) needed to activate Shatter Defenses.

Shatter Defenses wrote:

(a) Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn.

That can be interpreted as either:

Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent (that was) hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn.

giving us the conditions:
1. You have to have hit them
2. They have to be shaken, frightened, or panicked
and then allowing us to fulfill the conditions in no particular order.

For example, having an ally Intimidate the opponent after you hit it.

or:

'Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you' this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn.

giving us the single condition
1. You have to hit an opponent which is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Meaning, your ally would need to Intimidate the opponent before you hit it.

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While it's understandable how some arrive at the first interpretation (since it also makes sense grammatically), bear in mind that this is in clear conflict with the Rules As Intended of the feat.

The name of the feat is "Shatter Defenses", not "Opportunistic Striker", and the description is 'Your skill with your chosen weapon leaves opponents unable to defend themselves if you strike them when their defenses are already compromised.'

TL;DR:
You need to hit an enemy which is already shaken, frightened, or panicked for Shatter Defenses to trigger.
The other interpretation is valid from a grammatical perspective, but that's not how the feat is intended to work.

[toastedamphibian]

Well said. I am convinced.