| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Before anyone attacks me, there is a precedence for this;
Pact Servant
Insinuator
Gray Paladin
The Iron Tyrant form the Armor Masters Handbook is the reason I ask, which screams to me everything Gorum represents in combat. Full BAB, Spikes and Gauntlets getting the Warpriests scaling damage dice, Bonus Feats every 3 levels.
I would challenge the Anti-Palidin class suits Gorum more than any other in the game. Gorum isn't about good and evil though, he is about conflict.
Smite Good could be replaced with Smite Law or even the Vindictive Bastards Vindictive Smite, because again, Gorum doesn't care against who, just of there is conflict. Other class features could be changed to suit Gorum as well.
I know these sort of request generally don't happen, but for someone who is coming back to the game after a long break, I'd appreciate it.
|
Vindictive Bastards
Holy smokes how did I not know this was a thing.
I kinda want to play a paladin fall arc now...
I kinda want to play a paladin fall arc now...
I plan to whip it out next time my GM decides to run a non evil villain
dot
Thanks Darigaaz, I'm hoping to get a developer to comment on this.
Well, you are not the first who asks to stretch the definition of a paladin or antipaladin. A common answer is 'play a warpriest, damit', and I actually agree with that. No offense intended.
There is another crossbreed between warpriest and (anti)paladin: The warpriest archetype champion of the faith. It might fit your concept well.
I never knew the Vindictive Bastard existed either! Fascinating! I kind of want to play one!
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, that does nit nicely. Since you do have to fall first (at least in backstory) perhaps an ex-Paladin of Shelyn converted to a Callistrian Vindictive Bastard after someone broke their heart?
Well, you are not the first who asks to stretch the definition of a paladin or antipaladin. A common answer is 'play a warpriest, damit', and I actually agree with that. No offense intended.
That is a common response.
The other common response is commiserative grumbling about the narrowness of the official definition of the classes :)
It is a very Gorum-like archetype and in my home game I'd let OP play it with a CN Gorumite character in an instant (Vindictive Smite being an excellent substitution for Smite Good in this case). Alas, OP is not in my home game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, you are not the first who asks to stretch the definition of a paladin or antipaladin. A common answer is 'play a warpriest, damit', and I actually agree with that. No offense intended.
No offense taken, but what sounds more like a Gorumite; Someone with a higher spell level and 3/4 BAB, or someone with full BAB with incidental spells that only really aid their smashing?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, you are not the first who asks to stretch the definition of a paladin or antipaladin. A common answer is 'play a warpriest, damit', and I actually agree with that. No offense intended.
There is another crossbreed between warpriest and (anti)paladin: The warpriest archetype champion of the faith. It might fit your concept well.
I have always found this answer a bit unsatisfactory. There is nothing inherent to LG or CE that allows only those alignments to have full BAB, minor casting, holy warriors while every other alignment has to settle for noncasting holy warriors or less martial/more casting holy warriors.
I always wish I could play a NG or CG "paladin".
Contributor
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Interestingly, I find that the vindictive bastard can fill a lot of those roles too. Just call the abilities something different, and you'll find it makes a very serviceable protector/team player. ^_^
(A Desnan "valiant comrade" with Desna's Shooting Star would be a pretty vigorous force, I think.)
Interestingly, I find that the vindictive bastard can fill a lot of those roles too. Just call the abilities something different, and you'll find it makes a very serviceable protector/team player. ^_^
Still don't get the cool stuff from Iron Tyrant that way, and requires (at least officially) the character to be a Paladin of an appropriate deity.
If we can have Insinuator Anti-Paladin represent pure evil, why can't we have a Gorumite anti-Paladin represent pure Chaos?
|
Interestingly, I find that the vindictive bastard can fill a lot of those roles too. Just call the abilities something different, and you'll find it makes a very serviceable protector/team player. ^_^Still don't get the cool stuff from Iron Tyrant that way, and requires (at least officially) the character to be a Paladin of an appropriate deity.
If we can have Insinuator Anti-Paladin represent pure evil, why can't we have a Gorumite anti-Paladin represent pure Chaos?
Ummmmm no? Paladins aren't even required to have a deity so it doesn't require "an appropriate deity" officially in the least.
If you want a Chaotic Neutral Paladin you have to be a Vindictive Bastard. Works perfectly fine for Gorum. And if you want more than that discuss homebrewing with your GM.
It's weird to see people waxing poetic about the Vindictive Bastard. I thought we decided that "you can have a non-LG Paladin but all of her class abilities get nerfed" was bad with the Gray Paladin?
At least the Sin Monk turned out pretty interesting.
Ummmmm no? Paladins aren't even required to have a deity so it doesn't require "an appropriate deity" officially in the least.
If you want a Chaotic Neutral Paladin you have to be a Vindictive Bastard. Works perfectly fine for Gorum. And if you want more than that discuss homebrewing with your GM.
In PFS you do need to choose a god, and you still do not get access to the Iron Tyrant Archetype.
Also why is so wrong about asking Paizo to add something official?
It's weird to see people waxing poetic about the Vindictive Bastard. I thought we decided that "you can have a non-LG Paladin but all of her class abilities get nerfed" was bad with the Gray Paladin?
At least the Sin Monk turned out pretty interesting.
More so people are more OK with a Paladin Archetype that doesn't need to follow an alignment at all than an Anti-Paladin that is non evil.
|
|
Ummmmm no? Paladins aren't even required to have a deity so it doesn't require "an appropriate deity" officially in the least.
If you want a Chaotic Neutral Paladin you have to be a Vindictive Bastard. Works perfectly fine for Gorum. And if you want more than that discuss homebrewing with your GM.
In PFS you do need to choose a god, and you still do not get access to the Iron Tyrant Archetype.
Also why is so wrong about asking Paizo to add something official?
Sorry, I couldn't find anywhere you mentioned this was for PFS so I went by the normal rules of the game and Golarion setting.
A lot of people are against Paladins changing alignments. Paizo has already created the Warpriest, Gray Paladin, and Vindictive Bastard to help the people who want Paladins of any alignment, but you're unlikely to ever get anymore support than we already have.
Blame Gygax if you have to, but a large group of people have a certain view of Paladins and Anti-Paladins and Paizo seems to mostly agree with it.
A lot of people are against Paladins changing alignments. Paizo has already created the Warpriest, Gray Paladin, and Vindictive Bastard to help the people who want Paladins of any alignment, but you're unlikely to ever get anymore support than we already have.
Blame Gygax if you have to, but a large group of people have a certain view of Paladins and Anti-Paladins and Paizo seems to mostly agree with it.
The mere existence of the Gray Paladin, Insinuator, and Vindictive Bastard establishes Paizo is willing to depart from the alignment standard.
How is having an Anti-Paladin that is a symbol of mayhem so different from an Anti-Paladin that is a symbol of evil (Insinuator) in a way that makes the first a unreasonable archetype and the second an reasonable one?
You do realise Anti-Paladins are generally Chaotic Evil Aligned, Not Lawful Evil?
Still don’t get the iron tyrant archetype. I was the one who suggested the Vindictive Smite
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
You do realise Anti-Paladins are generally Chaotic Evil Aligned right?
I think you're missing Rysky's point. She seemed to be saying that smiting Law wouldn't make much sense for a Gorum based Paladin as they'd want to smite everything. So in that way Vindictive Bastard actually makes more sense for the character than a theoretical Chaosidin.
How would a class that’s typically chaotic evil be unrecognisable if the evil was dropped to focus on chaos? I’m asking you to explain your reasoning.
I think you're missing Rysky's point. She seemed to be saying that smiting Law wouldn't make much sense for a Gorum based Paladin as they'd want to smite everything.
Smite Good could be replaced with Smite Law or even the Vindictive Bastards Vindictive Smite, because again, Gorum doesn't care against who, just if there is conflict.
|
|
How would a class that’s typically chaotic evil be unrecognisable if the evil was dropped to focus on chaos? I’m asking you to explain your reasoning.
Going off the precedents (Grey Paladin, Insinuator, Vindictive Bastard) if Paizo were to make a Chaos focused Antipaladin archetype it wouldn’t be just an Antipaladin with the E in their alignment scrubbed off, the Archetype would effectively remake the class.
|
|
You do realise Anti-Paladins are generally Chaotic Evil Aligned right?I think you're missing Rysky's point. She seemed to be saying that smiting Law wouldn't make much sense for a Gorum based Paladin as they'd want to smite everything. So in that way Vindictive Bastard actually makes more sense for the character than a theoretical Chaosidin.
Yep-Yep. Gorum is Chaotic, but he’s not “For Chaos!”, he’s “For Violence!”
Vindictive Bastard actually fits him rather well, a divinely empowered warrior that held onto their convictions as they gave into the violence.
Vindictive Bastard actually fits him rather well, a divinely empowered warrior that held onto their convictions as they gave into the violence.
Gorums violence is Chaos; his follower will literally try to start wars between large nations for fun.
|
|
Vindictive Bastard actually fits him rather well, a divinely empowered warrior that held onto their convictions as they gave into the violence.Gorums violence is Chaos; his follower will literally try to start wars between large nations for fun.
They’ll start wars because to them wars is fun. Compare to Proteans who revel in Chaos for the sake of Chaos.
Going off the precedents (Grey Paladin, Insinuator, Vindictive Bastard) if Paizo were to make a Chaos focused Antipaladin archetype it wouldn’t be just an Antipaladin with the E in their alignment scrubbed off, the Archetype would effectively remake the class.
the only class features I see that wouldn't suit a chaos only Gorumite are;
Aura of Evil (change to work more like a Clerics Aura),
Detect Good (Detect Law?),
Smite Good (Vindictive Smite),
Plague Bringer (doesn't really suit Gorum who wants to win in fair-ish fights),
Aura of Vengeance (Gorumites are a bit too selfish to share their bonus'),
Aura of Sin (Aura of Chaos?),
Aura of Depravity (change to DR5/Law, change compulsion advantage to an intimidate check),
Unholy Champion (take more though than I have to put into it at 12:16 AM)
We both know that there have been archetypes that change more features, we have also had archetypes that fundamentally change classes, like changing Fighters into spellcasters.
I think saying "it'll change a lot of features" is a pretty weak argument.
|
|
... what exactly is the argument you think I’m making?
Going off your writeup it seems split between trying to be a Chaosidin and a CN Paladin of Gorum, two different things.
Gorum isn’t really anti-Law so a bunch of those powers wouldn’t be really thematic to him, and I don’t think they’re selfish (though I could have missed that writeup).
They’ll start wars because to them wars is fun. Compare to Proteans who revel in Chaos for the sake of Chaos.Vindictive Bastard actually fits him rather well, a divinely empowered warrior that held onto their convictions as they gave into the violence.Gorums violence is Chaos; his follower will literally try to start wars between large nations for fun.
Doing things because they are fun regardless of the consequence is the very definite of chaotic.
Battle is the manifestation of Gorums chaos.
|
|
They’ll start wars because to them wars is fun. Compare to Proteans who revel in Chaos for the sake of Chaos.Vindictive Bastard actually fits him rather well, a divinely empowered warrior that held onto their convictions as they gave into the violence.Gorums violence is Chaos; his follower will literally try to start wars between large nations for fun.Doing things because they are fun regardless of the consequence is the very definite of chaotic.
Battle is the manifestation of Gorums chaos.
Yes, it’s the manifestation of his Chaos, but that’s not the same as saying he’s all about Chaos. He’s about combat, that just happens to be Chaotic.
Going off the precedents (Grey Paladin, Insinuator, Vindictive Bastard) if Paizo were to make a Chaos focused Antipaladin archetype it wouldn’t be just an Antipaladin with the E in their alignment scrubbed off, the Archetype would effectively remake the class.the only class features I see that would suit a chaos only Gorumite are;
{. . .}
Probably also want to replace Aura of Cowardice with Aura of Courage. Or maybe with a custom Aura of Recklessness.
... what exactly is the argument you think I’m making?
You challenged that a chaotic only Anti-Paladin "would effectively remake the class"
I am challenging that there have already been archetypes that have changed this much or greater of a base class.
Yes, it’s the manifestation of his Chaos, but that’s not the same as saying he’s all about Chaos. He’s about combat, that just happens to be Chaotic.
Find me a god that is all about *Alignment* and literally nothing else.
Probably also want to replace Aura of Cowardice with Aura of Courage. Or maybe with a custom Aura of Recklessness.
I like that, I was just thinking being intimidating was still very Gorum
... yes, and?
why are we worried about effectively remaking a class through an archetype if it's already been done multiple times before?
|
|
Yes, it’s the manifestation of his Chaos, but that’s not the same as saying he’s all about Chaos. He’s about combat, that just happens to be Chaotic.Find me a god that is all about *Alignment* and literally nothing else.
I like that, I was just thinking being intimidating was still very GorumProbably also want to replace Aura of Cowardice with Aura of Courage. Or maybe with a custom Aura of Recklessness.
There isn’t one. Which is my point. An Antipaladin of Gorum Archetype would not be anti-Law, they would be pro-Gorum. Having anti-Law abilities doesn’t really do much for Gorum.
"the Lord in Iron is considered brash and impulsive; he takes what he wants" - Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, Pg.163
Rysky I also want to challenge your assertion that Gorum just "happens" to be chaotic, every gods alignment and the reasons for them are pretty clear. Also every Cleric has access to their Gods alignment Domains, so they must be a pretty big part of who they are.
I’m not, especially if the archetype is done well.
Then why did you say that would effectively remaking a class would be a problem? are you just trying to be contrary for the fun of it?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"the Lord in Iron is considered brash and impulsive; he takes what he wants" - Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, Pg.163
Rysky I also want to challenge your assertion that Gorum just "happens" to be chaotic, every gods alignment and the reasons for them are pretty clear. Also every Cleric has access to their Gods alignment Domains, so they must be a pretty big part of who they are.
The Chronicles Campaign Setting book is 3.5 so take anything it says with a groan of salt.
Yes Gorum is Chaotic, that does not mean he encourages or condones something just because it is pro-Chaos/anti-Law. He could care less about that. Gorum cares about combat. That’s it.
Going off the precedents (Grey Paladin, Insinuator, Vindictive Bastard) if Paizo were to make a Chaos focused Antipaladin archetype it wouldn’t be just an Antipaladin with the E in their alignment scrubbed off, the Archetype would effectively remake the class.
this was written before and after several of your posts saying that an anti-paladin archetype would not suit Gorum
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
1) that post was in response to your question as to why Paizo should not do option D after having done option A, B, and C.
2) I have not said that at all. An Antipaladin Archetype focused on Gorum would be awesome. An anti-Law focused Antipaladin shoehorned into Gorum not so much.
Yes Gorum is Chaotic, that does not mean he encourages or condones something just because it is pro-Chaos/anti-Law. He could care less about that. Gorum cares about combat. That’s it.
Actively ignoring law and steamrolling over it to get what he was is opposing law.
Passive aggressive is still a form of aggression. You can fight something by actively refusing to acknowledge it, which is what Gorum does
The Chronicles Campaign Setting book is 3.5 so take anything it says with a groan of salt.
Yes Gorum is Chaotic, that does not mean he encourages or condones something just because it is pro-Chaos/anti-Law. He could care less about that. Gorum cares about combat. That’s it.
So now even official sources is not sufficient evidence for you? Even if that was written in 3.5 days, is there any evidence that Gorum has changed in any way since then?
I have not said that at all. An Antipaladin Archetype focused on Gorum would be awesome. An anti-Law focused Antipaladin shoehorned into Gorum not so much.
I never suggested an anti-Law Gorumite Anti-Paladin, only a non-evil one
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That doesn’t mean Gorum is anti-Law to the point he has followers focus on anti-Law Powers. Gorum’s focus is on combat. Combat can be Chaotic or lawful or neither.
That’s the thing, it’s not official anymore, it’s even replaced with the Inner Sea Wolrld Guide. For the Gods You would need to read Inner Sea Gods and see if they kept that.
I’m not sure why you linked to that post (that you quoted just before this one), I said a CN Antipaladin would basically remake the class due to the amount of stuff changed. I never once said that such an archetype would not suit Gorum (moreso if the archetype was based around him), the only thing I’ve objected to is an anti-Law focused archetype and saying it fit him.
Wouldn't a non evil Anti-Paladin defeat the purpose of having Anti-Paladins.
Just saying, Warpriest is out there.
Where have I suggested any Anti-Law focus?
I stated a Smite feature like Vindictive Smite would be better fit than Smite Law.
When I suggested Detect Law as an alternative to Detect Good, I left a question mark behind it to signify I was not sure about the option. I just hadn't come up with something better at the time I wrote the post.
(Maybe allowing the AntiPaladin to treat half its level as fighter levels for prerequs?)
I suggested Aura of Depravity become DR5/Law as an opposite to Chaos and to match the DR5/Good it replaced
Not one of my suggested alterations increase battle prowess against Lawful characters. DR5/Law in face makes the alteration weaker against lawful characters.
I'm suggesting Gorum would naturally not acknowledge law because he is chaotic, and does not answer to a higher power.
Wouldn't a non evil Anti-Paladin defeat the purpose of having Anti-Paladins.
Just saying, Warpriest is out there.
No more than an Insinuator or Gray Paladin already does.
Warpriest is a different class. That's like saying "why do you need Barbarians? We already have Fighters" The two classes are functionally different.