Skill Unlocks aren't really a reason to pump CHA over any other score, though. If anything, I'd rather pump WIS. Not only do I get a better Will save, but I get a better Perception check (which is huge) and I can take the Heal skill unlock to act as an out-of-combat healer for the party (legitimately the most cost effective healing in the game, that unlock).
The normal limitations of the Treat Deadly Wounds action still apply. It takes 1 hour to perform, and cannot be performed on the same individual more than once per day. It may be cost-effective, but it sure is inconvenient.
Damage is the least effective method of ending combat. This is due to the fact that a creature at 1% hp and a creature at 99% hp have all the same capabilities and are virtually indistinct from one another.Thus, having a poor Will save and a poor Fort save is potentially far more dangerous to a player than having a poor Reflex save.
This is also the reason why Blaster Mages are looked down upon in favor of battlefield controlling God Wizards, who are capable of shaping the battle to their favor in a way that simply dealing damage cannot. In other words, this is just another aspect of the game's far reaching and ever present Caster-Martial disparity.
This is why anyone looking to play a blaster mage should be pointed toward the Kineticist instead of trying to jump through the hoops to make an actual caster. They can fulfil their fantasy of slinging magicky death in all sorts of creative shapes and ways all day and simultaneously inflict effects along with the damage in the same action.
The normal limitations of the Treat Deadly Wounds action still apply. It takes 1 hour to perform, and cannot be performed on the same individual more than once per day. It may be cost-effective, but it sure is inconvenient.
Battlefield Surgeon trait gives you a second use per day, and the 1 hour rest time isn't so bad out of combat. Plus, you can take Psychic Healing to turn your HP from Treat Deadly Wounds into temporary HP before the fact. It's quite useful when your party doesn't have a healer.
This is why anyone looking to play a blaster mage should be pointed toward the Kineticist instead of trying to jump through the hoops to make an actual caster. They can fulfil their fantasy of slinging magicky death in all sorts of creative shapes and ways all day and simultaneously inflict effects along with the damage in the same action.
Eh, I was kinda speaking in a "Core Rulebook Only" sense. Blaster Mages can now just pick up Dazing Spell to be great at Battlefield Control, and note, just because you like to use Fireball a lot, doesn't make it impossible for you to cast Stinking Cloud. Or better yet, Hold Person, Detect Thoughts, Scrying, Sending, Greater Teleport, etc.
Wizards and other full level spellcasters are far superior to Kineticists in this regard, because again, they have options outside of damage. Just another facet of Caster-Martial Disparity.
This is why anyone looking to play a blaster mage should be pointed toward the Kineticist instead of trying to jump through the hoops to make an actual caster.
I'd never push someone towards Kineticist if the goal is to avoid needing to "jump through the hoops to make". It takes many hoops to wade through just to see what options you have for your elements: It's not presented well.
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The real question here is: why would you play either of those.
Want to play a kung fu assassin? Go unchained monk.
Want to play a skillmonkey, go archeologist bard or inquisitor.
Want to play a murder backstab damage dealer, go slayer.
In all cases those classes are VASTLY superior to the rogue in almost every way.
In fact i'd vote to just freaking remove the unchained rogue and ninja from existence, make ninja an unchained rogue archetype, and make the slayer the new rogue.
The rogue and ninja are both penalised by weak saves, 3/4 bab for a fighter type class, and no spellcasting (yes they can UMD, but that's not spellcasting, and if youre dropping GP to buy items that cast spells, why didnt you go bard or inquisitor)
In short, they're pretty much trash classes, except for the unchained rogue, it's a halfway decent 3 level dip that nets you dex to damage x1.5 on the elven curved blade and elven branched spear. IF you want to avoid other silly ways of getting dex to damage.
But then again, I use the feat tax fix in my games, and weapon finesse now grants dex to damage with finessable weapons, so I guess that took care of that!
... just because you like to use Fireball a lot, doesn't make it impossible for you to cast Stinking Cloud. Or better yet, Hold Person, Detect Thoughts, Scrying, Sending, Greater Teleport, etc.
So the best way to be a blaster mage is... to not be a blaster mage, and instead cast the usual non-blaster spells? Seems kind of opposite to the point.
I'd never push someone towards Kineticist if the goal is to avoid needing to "jump through the hoops to make". It takes many hoops to wade through just to see what options you have for your elements: It's not presented well.
I more meant all the multiclassing, trait-sifting, and Metamagic that comes with most presented ideas of a blaster. Kineticist does look overwhelming at first going through all the options, though.
So the best way to be a blaster mage is... to not be a blaster mage, and instead cast the usual non-blaster spells? Seems kind of opposite to the point.
The ability to get a diverse range of non-blasting abilities for free is a big advantage, even if it may not be directly towards your intended specialization. Even the Crossblooded Sorcerers will get more goodies than the Kineticist.
The Kineticist is an interesting option as a blaster at low levels, but he doesn't scale as quickly as traditional blasting classes do. As a result he really starts to fall behind as the levels increase. The Kineticist has no equivalent to the Spell Perfection feat, and really can't hold a candle to the 9-level spellcasters as blasters at that point.
With the massive buff that was Blood Havoc, the Sorcerer is kind of in a class of his own as a blaster. It's now ridiculously easy to tack Blood Havoc onto any Sorcerer build and be a decent blaster with virtually no investment, and for specialist Sorcerers the roof just raised a few notches. Kineticists may be a fun class, but when it comes to blasting they can't really keep up with Sorcerers past the low levels.
Just read blood havoc...
So are you telling me that a human crossblooded sorcerer with spell focus, spell mastery, orc and elemental bloodline and blood havoc, and the +1 CL trait could have a 4d4+12 burning hands at level 1??
Who thought up blood havoc!!!
I think we should ask for a FAQs on +1 per damage die stacking.
Yeah I figure it went along like that...
I'll open it up for a FAQ on rules questions.
Yeah control is better and everything but I have this nagging feeling that doing 97 average aoe damage at level 8 is kinda game busting (empowered fireball with above build).
Remember, the ennemy can't attack you if he's a burned, twitching cadaver.
I opened up a FAQ and asked if it was the devs intent to have them stack.
If you count sorc bloodline powers as "same source" it doesn't stack, maybe they had that in mind?
Obviously the full nova DPR isn't going to hold a candle to a Sorcerer, but in most games (e.g. below 15th) I would imagine a Kineticist would fulfil the concept and functionality of a blaster mage at least as well as a Sorcerer. Additionally, one of the points I mentioned before is that Kineticists deliver their damage and their additional effects simultaneously, which really fits the theme of a blaster mage more.
Swinging this around closer to the real topic:
Want to play a skillmonkey, go archeologist bard or inquisitor.
Want to play a murder backstab damage dealer, go slayer.
The Unchained Rogue certainly fits the concept of what it is trying to be (a sneaky light weapon wielding martial with good skills) more than Inquisitor or Slayer. Slayer is definitely a lot closer than Inquisitor, of course, but as much as I like Slayer it is different enough from UnRogue to be a distinctly different option.
Ninja also fills a distinct concept, and I think there should be an UnRogue archetype (they're not going to make an Unchained Ninja) that grants the special things Ninja has in order to be able to realize that concept without feeling bad for picking Ninja instead of UnRogue. For example, it could replace the UnRogue weapon proficiencies, exchange the features Ninja did in comparison to core Rogue, and swap either Debilitating Injury or Rogue's Edge for Ki Pool.
I imagine the thought process was along the lines of "Boy, all those blast sorcs are pidgeonholed into orc/draconic bloodlines! I will be a nice dev and open up blasting to all the other bloodlines"This was done while not thinking of the concept that people will just stack it with orc/draconic bloodlines for nuclear blast power.
This was basically my thoughts on reading it.
With that said, I think Crossblooded is now so overkill that it's not really necessary anymore, and I'd rather just go with a single bloodline. Not going Crossblooded makes Wildblooded an option, and Primal Elemental is very appealing for a blaster. It doesn't get mentioned as much as Orc or Draconic since it's incompatible with Crossblooded and thus doesn't hit the same extreme highs, but it gives you a much better balanced build overall so for something to actually bring to the table I think it's the better option. This gets you a much more balanced build overall while still being ridiculously powerful as a blaster. 3d4+6 in an area of effect is more than enough for 1st level play anyways.
Respectfully, I disagree.
With 6 skills level, rogue talents and sneak attack, the slayer is as thematicaly for the skillful Dex fighter niche as the rogue (his discrepancy in finesse training can be compensated by feats such as fencing grace or starry grace or slashing grace or bladed brush or the agile weapon enhancement) but better. It costs more feats but who wouldn't trade away 3 feats for a second save as strong, full Bab instead of 3/4 (and thus a lot more attacks a lot earlier) and d10 instead of d8.
Basically, even thematicaly, the slayer is a better rogue than the rogue.
UnRogue also has free Skill Unlocks, Debilitating Injury, and it focuses on a better Sneak Attack in exchange for not being as good when it can't get Sneak Attack. Small-sized characters will also enjoy UnRogue more than a Medium character would, especially if you're using light weapons (1d3 and 1d4 aren't much of a difference).
Slayer is more straightforward and combat-oriented and obviously shines brighter in that area.
Biggest issue I have with this thread: 90% of the discussion had nothing to do with the original question. The question was not, "why does the rogue / ninja suck and what sort of min / max / dip abomination should I play instead?"
The question was about if choosing between the two, which would be a more optimal build and why. If you hate both, that is fine, however that is not what the guy asked.
Perhaps a better jump point would have been, "Hey OP, tell us what you are trying to do with the character? What options are available to you? Are you really set on playing a single class from one of those two classes?" etc etc
The OP said damage-dealing, so the answer is Unchained Rogue.
Free Weapon Finesse and Dex-to-Damage as well as Debilitating Injury. These mean you can spend early feats on Two-Weapon Fighting and Weapon Focus. This is, of course, assuming you can get a buddy to flank with you (Gang Up is a nice feat for that when you have multiple other melee characters and/or animal companions, summoned creatures, etc. in the party).
Ninja have access to Wakizashi, which are better than any simple or martial light weapons (both stat-wise and because of its Deadly special weapon quality improving your coups de grace to be on par with high crit multiplier weapons) and get a Ki pool, eventually leading to being able to spend 1 Ki point for Greater Invisibility for 1 round per level, which lets you guarantee SA. Unfortunately, this starts at 10th level since Invisible Blade is a Master Trick. UnRogues can also get your nice, shiny Wakizashi proficiency pretty easily with a single feat if they want to.
Biggest issue I have with this thread: 90% of the discussion had nothing to do with the original question. The question was not, "why does the rogue / ninja suck and what sort of min / max / dip abomination should I play instead?"
The question was about if choosing between the two, which would be a more optimal build and why. If you hate both, that is fine, however that is not what the guy asked.
Perhaps a better jump point would have been, "Hey OP, tell us what you are trying to do with the character? What options are available to you? Are you really set on playing a single class from one of those two classes?" etc etc
Oh yeah that was answered a while ago. i think afterwards its just us posters shooting the breeze and brainstorming.
Apologies to the OP for any inconvenience of the derailment.
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If the OP was still interested in discussion exclusive to the original question, he shouldn't have remained silent for the last 65 posts.
Without more information, a specific answer is simply impossible, and thus the thread either dies, or get's broadened.