New (To Pathfinder) Player looking for help with a Halfling Knight Concept

[Jurassic Pratt]

OP just clarified that they're not doing PFS and just misunderstood what the Acronym stood for.

[Lune]

Ah. I missed that it seems.

[Lune]

IMO I'd 4 levels of Hunter and the rest Cavalier. Get Pack Flanking, Outflank, Precise Strike, Broken Wing Gambit and whatever mounted feats you want. Have your mount pickup Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style, Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard. He will also get all of your teamwork feats thanks to Hunter Tactics.

With the above build you are always considered flanking while mounted and get a +4 to hit from flanking. You get to attack whoever attacks your mount and your mount gets to attack whoever attacks you. You get to roll to protect each other. I would suggest going with a Large sized mount as it will pretty much always be allowed to charge and you can take it anywhere thanks to Carry Companion and Reduce Animal.

[skulky]

Saevus, looks good you’re pretty set at being a mounted knight at level 6 after getting the spirited charge feats and power attack. With your int at 9 your skills a level is down to 3, which means they’re pretty much spoken for with ride, handle animal and diplomacy. And with 14 dex and being small just have a sling or short bow to have a range option.
Order of the dragon can make for a really cool build, too, just a totally different style, more of the ultimate bodyguard.
And like you said earlier it can be a bit of a 1 trick pony, but like any character it’s what you make of it. You need to work with your group to have charge lanes, you have great mobility and can flank for a rogue. Before ride by attack if something survives your charge, the next round, it’s you and your wolf attacking who gets a free trip attempt whenever it hits. And it’s a little 3ft halfling on a wolf just wrecking stuff. You won’t always be able to charge, but oh boy when you do you’ll be able to one shot most level appropriate things.
I don’t know why people are recommending crazy complicated builds and other races, the damage is crazy and almost overkill and the to hit is pretty ridiculous on a charge as well. On most builds furious focus isn’t as big a deal, but once you power attack at 8th the penalty is -3 and since you are only doing 1 attack a round it’s more important. So I’d recommend it at 7th or 9th.
Equipment you want a ranged option, other types of damage besides piercing with your lance, and since you’re going power attack a big 2 handed weapon works better than a long sword go greatsword. Upgrade to fullplate when you can like around 3rd. Get a good cloak to keep your saves up. One cool option is rhino hide armor which adds an extra 2d6 damage on a charge, but is only medium armor and might not fit the knight concept.

[SmiloDan]

Do they make glamered rhino hide armor, so it can look like full plate?

I have some more questions: You know how lances don't threaten within 5 feet? Is investing in any of the shield feats worth it? Like Improved Shield Bash? Especially when combined with Combat Reflexes?

[Lune]

skulky wrote:

...which means they’re pretty much spoken for with ride, handle animal and diplomacy.

No perception?! Perception is the most used skill in the game. Read any guide it will tell you the same thing.

skulky wrote:

You need to work with your group to have charge lanes...

With the build I posted just above you don't need to work with your group for charge lanes, you should almost always have them.

skulky wrote:

I don’t know why people are recommending crazy complicated builds...

I'm not sure who you were referring to with that statement. However, the build I suggested is 4 levels of Hunter with the rest in Cavalier. That isn't super complicated. It is fairly common, in fact. 3 levels of Hunter allows you to share all of your teamwork feats with your Animal Companion. That is incredibly good. With just 3 levels in Hunter you will get 2 teamwork feats and Cavalier gets a free one every 6 levels. With Pack Flanking you are always considered flanking while mounted. Getting a +4 to hit for both you and your Animal Companion. That is great on a charge. Grab Distracting Charge later and bump it up to +6.

Go with upgrading your Wolf to large size and take Carry Companion and Reduce Animal as spells known. Grab a couple scrolls of each in case you think you may run out from time to time. If you need the increased mobility of having a medium sized mount just reduce it. You get to retain 6 points from your +8 Str and all of your +4 Con. The Dex evens out.

This is all something you can't do with Cavalier alone. They don't get spells so can't go with the large mount and reduce it when needed. They can't carry companion it to take it with them in places it couldn't normally go. They don't get to share their teamwork feats with their mount.

[Lune]

I also feel that it is important to note that if you keep your Wolf medium sized they do not get the trip ability that they normally would at 7th level. Trip is basically the reason you want to go with Wolf. Even if you did get it and chose to keep your Wolf medium sized it wouldn't gain the +8 Str or +4 Con. Instead it would just get +2 Dex and Con which doesn't help with a tripping Animal Companion at all.

It is in all ways better to go with +8 Str, +4 Con and -2 Dex and just Reduce Animal in cramped spaces. Doing so will let you retain +6 Str, +4 Con and your Dex evens out. And you keep the trip ability. Very rarely will you need to Reduce Animal more than 2x per day and with just a 12 Wis you will be able to do that. If you need more just pick up a couple of scrolls of Reduce Animal and Carry Companion for those rare times.

A lot of people get hung up on the names of the classes. I'm not sure what you are looking for out of Cavalier that you don't get with Hunter with a "Knight" concept. Hunter does start with Martial Proficiency, Light and Medium armor and Shields. You can still go with a Lance and I wouldn't suggest anything heavier than Mithral Medium anyway mostly due to the armor check penalties. And whatever you wanted to get out of Cavalier you can still get just 4 levels later.

FWIW, I can attest with personal knowledge that Halfling Hunters make excellent mounted combatants. Flavoring them as a "Knight" isn't hard, they have everything you would expect out of a Knight already. The build concept I suggest is something my son is playing except that he went full Hunter. The change from full Hunter to 4 Hunter, rest Cavalier isn't a huge difference. His character rides an Axe Beak but is focused on charging and uses a lance and rhino hide armor. He also makes ample use of the Lockjaw, Strongjaw, Acid Maw, Magic Fang (and Greater) as well as Animal Growth when we need to have a Kaiju battle. Kaiju battles have happened and it is a terrifying thing to behold. Having a Huge sized Axe Beak running around with 32 Str at 8th level with Colossal sized Bite attack (4d6+16, +2 Magic Fang, 1d4 Acid +Grapple and Trip on charge) is ... effective. Especially with a to hit of +22 (5 BAB, +11 Str, +2 Magic Fang, +2 Charge, +4 Flanking, -2 Size).

Has anyone suggested Dire Collar yet by the way? If not I'm suggesting it now. And the Greater version when you can afford it.

[Odo Hillborne]

Slim Jim wrote:

Str = 16 -2 /14

Dex = 13 +2 /15 (-> 16 at 4th level)
Con = 12
Int = 10
Wis = 10
Cha = 14 +2 /16

Q. Are you in a hack-n-slash home campaign? ...I ask because I cannot fathom how on earth this straight cavalier is making will-saves, and get the impression that he is not being asked to make them.

A halfling's +1 bonus and a halfway-upgraded cloak will only get you so far with Wis10 in class that poorly advances the relevant save.

He's having trouble with his PFS Will saves, yes. We can't all be perfect.

[SmiloDan]

Well, you can start out as a cavalier, play a few levels, and then decide if you want to take levels in hunter if you're feeling comfortable with multiclassing. I would suggest boosting Wisdom to 12 at least anyways. It helps with Will saves, Perception checks, and other Wisdom checks, like Sense Motive and Survival.

Str = 16-2/14
Dex = 13+2/15 (-> 16 at 4th level)
Con = 12
Int = 10
Wis = 13 (-> 14 at 8th level, especially if you go hunter)
Cha = 12+2/14

Put boosts 12, 16, 20 into Str, Plus add Strength belt when you can afford it.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Saevus wrote:

Thanks for the additional input. It's all just fun and games (literally) :)

So I'll update with the top choice of my 3 ideas for the group (Session zero after the holidays)

First, this is not PFS. Apologies if I used a bad acronym somewhere, this is a game a very long time 3.5/PF DM buddy of mine is running.

Your GM is a very, very brave man to allow players to co-mingle Pathfinder and 3.5. Doing so allows for extreme game-breaking combinations. I have some ideas.

I also have ideas that include 3.5 Feats that are merely awesome and probably not Gamebreaking.

[SmiloDan]

I played in a 3.5 game briefly a few years ago, and my cleric had a Turning Feat, a Domain Feat, and a Reserve Feat, plus it was a reach build with Combat Reflexes. Very tactical and it kind of blew the DM's mind.

I forget the exact build, but it probably had the Luck and War domain, and was eventually going to have some Luck feats too!

[Lune]

To be fair he didn't say it is combining 3.5/PF. Only that the DM is familiar with both. At least that is how I took it.

But yeah... don't mix 3.x and PF. Bad things happen with anyone half competent in character building.

[skulky]

Lune my comments weren’t directed at you, and actually agree that your hunter build is quite effective, hunters in general kick ass. There were other builds that had like 4 classes dips in rogue and urban rage dips, which first I think are overly complicated for first time player and second just don’t fit the concept. And agree you can flavor things how you want, I just thought what the op was describing was exactly what a cavalier is, and in pathfinder there’s always many different ways to achieve the same thing.
And yes perception is most rolled skill in the game, I was just pointing out that with 9 int the op would only have 3 skill ranks a level 2 of which are pretty much required ride/handle animal and if op wants to be a face and max out diplomacy there’s no room for anything else.

[Lune]

Yeah. I have a "human" "rogue". It is actually a Half-Orc (with most of the more human like racial traits) Barbarian with a level of Trapper Ranger. She fills the role of a Rogue. She has a starting Int of 18 and a ton of skills. She has Trapfinding but often prefers to use her "B.L.P" (what her Adamantine Greatsword has carved into it... Big Lock Pick) with Trap Wrecker. If characters ask her what she is she tells them that she is a "Trapscout. But I'm pretty competant in a fight too!" She has the Sunder line of feats and the Spell Sunder line of Rage Powers.

However, perception is reality. She might get a bit of side eye from carrying around her B.L.P. but she otherwise looks like a Rogue. She has a Mithral Agile Breastplate, Engineer's Workgloves, Lens of Detection, Boots of Striding and Springing, Circlet of Persuasion and soon an Ebon Wayfinder. She has a bunch of mundane skill items and has the skill points to backup being a "rogue".

I actually created the character as a sort of dare formed from one of the Rogue hate threads prior to URogue coming out. Basically someone said that pretty much anything could Rogue better than Rogue can. I took it as a challenge and tried to pick the most unlikely of classes to compete with a Rogue at doing Rogue things. So far it has worked fairly well. I'm fairly certain she can outfight a Rogue and keeps up fairly well with her skills.

My point here is, though, that she is a Barbarian in Rogue's clothing. The name of the class means nothing. Classes are just a gathering of tools in a tool box. You get out of them what you want to accomplish the concept you are trying to flesh out. That isn't to say throw fluff to the curb. I enjoy role playing my character. I just don't like being bound by the iconic description of the archetype. My character definitely doesn't know that she is a "Barbarian". Why should she have to conform to typical Barbarian things?

Same thing goes here. Why should a "Halfling Knight" have to take levels in something like Cavalier? Just to assuage the iconic concept? If what you want to do you can get from other classes better then I say go for it. "Knight" is just a concept. Anything can be a "Knight". A Wizard could be a "Knight" (don't challenge me on this... I might have to accept it and build a character around it. ;) ). A Hunter could certainly be a "Knight".

[Scott Wilhelm]

Lune wrote:

To be fair he didn't say it is combining 3.5/PF. Only that the DM is familiar with both. At least that is how I took it.

But yeah... don't mix 3.x and PF. Bad things happen with anyone half competent in character building.

Actually, I was thinking in terms of allowing all d20 Rules in my next campaign. I was thinking if any of the players pulled out ridiculous, broken builds, I would just begin populating my world with equally broken NPCs and then let the Hilarity Ensue.

Hehe, that will be the name of one of my PCs in the future: Hillary Tracy Nancy Sue, or Hillary T. N. Sue for short! Maybe my wife will let us name one of our daughters that....