Dorn Dergar Master + Titan Fighter or Titan Mauler


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Am I correct in my reading of the rules that comining these would allow you to wield a Dorn-Dergar 2 size categories larger than yourself with 2 hands?

Dorn Dergar Master lets you wield a normally 2 handed weapon with 1 hand, so you could go up a size category and be back to only being able to use it 2 handed...then adding the Titan Fighter or Mauler which normally allow you to wield a 2 handed weapon that would normally be too large for you would allow you to go up a second category?

Medium Dwarf Titan Fighter/Mauler wielding a Huge Dorn-Dergar at level 5+ with the DDM feat?


I think that it is probably not meant to be allowed. Purely based on the Titan Mauler's Jotungrip ability.

Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.

It works in a similar way to the Dorn Dergar Master, letting you use Two-handed weapons of your size in one hand. If that would also allow you to also use Large Two-handed weapons in two hands, they should have written the Massive Weapons ability in a different way (a pure modifier improvement).

That said, I would personally allow it for 2 reasons:

1.) It is a higher investment in feats than going for a Butchering Axe and a Large Butchering axe does 4d6 vs a Huge Dorn Dergar does 3d8

2.) You will get an additional -2 since it is 2 categories bigger than you, so for a Titan Mauler you will have a base negative size modifier on attacks at -8 and -6 for Titan Fighter

Grand Lodge

The 3rd level Titan Mauler ability specifically calls out oversized weapons.

Titan Mauler wrote:

Massive Weapons (Ex)

At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes.

She can use two-handed weapons meant for creatures one size category larger, but the penalty for doing so is increased by 4. However, the attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0).

Similarly worded to the Titan Figher's level 1 ability

Titan Fighter wrote:

Giant Weapon Wielder (Ex)

At 1st level, a titan fighter can wield two-handed melee weapons intended for creatures one size category larger than himself, treating them as two-handed weapons. He takes an additional –2 penalty on attack rolls when using an over-sized two-handed weapon.

This ability replaces the fighter’s 1st level bonus feat.

The combination works in HeroLab...which I know is not a definitive source, so I thought I would check here.

When you combined a Huge sized Dorn Dergar with the Impact weapon enchantment and Enlarge Person, then start throwing Vital Strike around...the damage can get a bit silly (18d8+31 at level 12) with a Dwarf Titan Fighter 10/Ranger 2 using Improved Vital Strike


Okay so... dornderger master does let you use a large sized flail two handed, for the same reasons exotic allows large bastard swords.

Buuuuuut, those classes sadly don't help. You can use two handed melee weapons intended for a creature one size larger than you. Key word is intended. A huge dornderger is not intended for a large creature.

Ironically, just taking the feat and using it without the class is superior to taking it with the class to avoid the additional penalties beyond the standard oversized weapon penalties.


Vargrym wrote:
When you combined a Huge sized Dorn Dergar with the Impact weapon enchantment and Enlarge Person, then start throwing Vital Strike around...the damage can get a bit silly (18d8+31 at level 12) with a Dwarf Titan Fighter 10/Ranger 2 using Improved Vital Strike

Doing the same with a Butchering Axe will give you 24d6.

18d8 average 81, 24d6 average 84, so basically the same. If it is only the damage that interest you I mean.

Icehawk wrote:
Ironically, just taking the feat and using it without the class is superior to taking it with the class to avoid the additional penalties beyond the standard oversized weapon penalties.

The good thing with the Titan archetypes is that the penalty will go to 0 in time, so it is better at higher levels.


The main points about the dwarven dorn-dergar are:
- Dwarven weapon, being a Martial weapon for dwarves
- Can switch between reach mode and non-reach mode
- Dorn-Dergar Master... esentially pushes to TWF using 2 dorn-dergars
- Darting Viper shortens the move needed to switch between modes

The Titan Fighter (a Fighter archetype, just as a reminder) focuses on wielding larger-than-usual weapons. From a quick read, it is the easier archetype to use, provided that you have at least the Dorn-Dergar Master feat. The feat allows one-handed use without penalty, similar to wielding a bastard sword or a dwarven waraxe. The archetype simply gives you the ability to wield Large weapons to start, but with the feat, you can still use it as a one-handed weapon, as the class feature makes use of the weapon as its core, and then you apply the feat to wield it as a one-handed weapon. So yeah, you could TWF with 2 Colossal dorn-dergars as one-handed weapons... although good luck hauling these around XDD

The Titan Mauler (a Barbarian archetype) would allow you to wield a dorn-dergar as a one-handed weapon, but with a penalty as long as you take the feat. The problem is that the next feature the Mauler gets, Massive Weapons, doesn't enhance or complement Jotungrip at all. because you cannot mix them. You cannot use Massive Weapons to wield larger two-handed weapons and then use Jotungrip to wield them as one-handed weapons. Why? because Jotungrip only works with two-handed weapons that are properly sized for you.

Liberty's Edge

Vargrym wrote:
Dorn Dergar Master lets you wield a normally 2 handed weapon with 1 hand, so you could go up a size category and be back to only being able to use it 2 handed

First potential problem. You are assuming more than the feat states. Dorn Dergar Master states that it allows you to use a Dorn Dergar one-handed. It says nothing about being able to use a one size category larger Dorn Dergar two-handed. Many GM's would consider these separate abilities. For example, note that the other powers you are citing allow wielding a two-handed weapon one size category larger... but say nothing about this meaning you can also use a normal sized two-handed weapon in one hand.

Quote:
...then adding the Titan Fighter or Mauler which normally allow you to wield a 2 handed weapon that would normally be too large for you would allow you to go up a second category?

Second potential problem. Both of those abilities specifically say that they work with a weapon one size category larger. You are trying to use a weapon two size categories larger. Many GM's will stop you right there... and even if you can convince a GM to 'extend the logic' you then run in to potential stacking issues. That is, you are essentially arguing that Dorn Dergar Master should do the same thing as Massive Weapons/Giant Weapon Wielder... in which case, different versions of the same ability generally do not stack with each other.

Grand Lodge

Good points guys, I totally spaced on the fact that both archetypes call out weapons ONE category larger, that right there negates it.

It would have been hysterical to play a dwarf swinging around a Dorn-Dergar the size of an actual wrecking ball though. :)

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