Template Grafts and their affects on CR / XP?


Rules Questions


I'm reading through the Alien Archive and the monster creation rules, and I'm finding the whole Grafts thing a bit confusing. This is mostly in regards to how to determine final CR and how much XP to give for the encounter.

From my reading of the process, as part of step 0 (concept), you pick a CR for the creature, and (as far as I can tell) that CR never changes throughout the process no matter how many grafts you apply to it during the process. There's a line in step 9 about making sure the numbers aren't too far from the baseline. However, I'm finding it difficult to wrap my brain around the idea that a CR 10 humanoid (human) graft technomancer graft is just as difficult to fight (and rewards the same XP) as a CR 10 undead graft necrovite graft technomancer graft or as a CR 10 black dragon graft technomancer graft.

Even if you pick the exact same spells/gear/tactics for the monsters, the latter ones are just more difficult to fight because of their innate abilities and immunities.

I know that, as the GM I'm capable of making judgement calls. I do that sort of stuff all the time in other games. But since this is a new (and highly tuned for balance) system, I kind of expected better guidelines around this. I have a feeling I'm going to end up killing characters at some point in any non-module boss fight (APL+2 or +3) because I'm not going to catch a non-obvious bonus to a graft that really should have upped the CR by one or two on its own.

Am I just missing those guidelines? Or are these grafts a lot more balanced than they look?


I've wondered the same. What especially confuses me is that some types of grafts are just optional. So, you don't need to add a class graft, but it very obviously makes the NPC more powerful because they give tons of bonuses, but barely any penalties. And yet, there is no rule as to how much that increases its CR.
Yeah, I'm not sure about the graft system.


I think "highly tuned for balance" is an overstatement.

The grafts (usually) don't change the base characteristics (damage, AC, save DCs, etc.) much, if at all. Lots of times they add resistances, immunities, senses, and so forth, or they give a variety of options (rather than more powerful ones), which aren't enough to raise the CR.

I have to occasionally remind myself when making monsters that I don't (and shouldn't) min-max the monster so it's as powerful as possible for its CR. Make the monster according to your vision for it, and it should work out fine.

Just don't accidentally make them immune to all the things.


What I meant by "highly tuned for balance", is that when comparing the suggested CR numbers in the charts with the damage numbers for weapons of around the same levels and the save DC's/attack bonuses/hitpoints/etc of PC's at that level is that, at least compared to 3.x/PF, the numbers are a LOT fairer between PC's and monsters. It's a lot closer to an 'even' fight than the other d20 systems.

It's the "accidentally" that I'm worried about. I've been playing and running the various versions of 3rd ed since it started. I'm very familiar with the rules and ways to make a creature more or less powerful, and (most importantly) what my limits are with the characters.

What I'm concerned with is that there's going to be some interaction between some of the grafts that makes something much greater than the sum of its parts. I'm not going to see that (due to limited experience in the new system coupled with very few examples), and what I meant to be a "tough fight" is suddenly a TPK (or a complete joke).

It's also kind of absurd (meta-wise) that a creature with X stats and no innate immunities is considered exactly as difficult as creature with X stats and LOTS of immunities. But that's more my inner referee saying that something isn't fair.


Two things I note:

1. The system doesn't seem designed with the idea that a given NPC will have an arbitrary number of templates. This would limit stacking and thus some of the potential problems. You can have a type, a subtype, and possible a class template, but that's it, and several of the features don't stack anyway.

2. Starfinder PCs are designed for greater flexibility, so the "multiple immunities" might be viewed as less of an issue. PCs should have multiple options each, meaning that only a *really* extreme number of immunities ( or an unfortunately specific combination ) would be a serious impediment. Or, if the party is composed of one-trick ponies who get shut down utterly if the enemy is has both slashing resistance and fire immunity? That's a fault of the players for building PCs who can only do one thing.


Is number 1 explained somewhere and I just missed it?

The way I was reading it, in my head at least, was that if I wanted to make, say a CR 10 Black Dragon Dracolich I'd start with a generic spellcaster CR 10, add the dragon type graft, add the Black Dragon Graft, add the Undead Graft, add the Necrovite Graft, and add the Technomancer class graft, and it would still be a CR 10.

I'm perfectly willing to accept it if I completely misread how this works, that's just how it worked in d20 (except it would be a higher CR at the end), so I may just be assuming something that's no longer true. It wouldn't be the first time I was completely and utterly wrong about something.

But even if it is just one Type/Subtype/Class per monster, it still seems odd to me that the 'better' template grafts (the ones that boost hitpoints or provide immunities or extra attacks) don't add to the CR of the monster in and of themselves.

Your second point is a pretty good argument for why it shouldn't matter.

I just have a feeling the first time I hand build a monster I'm going to step in a landmine and turn what I think is going to be a "hard fight" into either a cakewalk or a TPK because I don't have any guard rails (like +1 to CR for every graft beyond 2 or something) or enough experience with the new system to notice something non-obvious. It's almost like those rules were written by the game developers assuming everyone knew enough about the system to already understand how it worked, and I don't.


...Why would you add both the dragon and undead grafts? You just apply one of them. As it says in the adjustments section of the Creature Type entry, though this is for class vs. creature type: "You should only use the adjustments for the creature type graft or the adjustments entry for the class graft, not both-decide whether the adjustments from its class or the the adjustments from its creature type are more important and apply only those."

Essentially, you should only have one creature type graft on a creature, regardless of if it's undead, and if you're planning a class graft it should only have the 'traits' section even there. Use whichever leads to a creature closest to your vision, don't use everything.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I tried building your dracolich, and this is what came out

CR 10 dracolich
EAC 22, KAC 23 Fort+9, Ref+9, Will+13 HP 140, Ability DC +19, Base Spell DC18, Mods+8 (int) ,+5(wis),+3(str,
2 special abilites, 2 master skills (+24), good skill (+19)

Attacks: Melee +16 Bite(15ft) (2d8+13), Multiattack(Bite +16, 2claws +16(1d10+13), tail slap+16 (1d10+13)
Ranged: spells +18

Creature type graft: Undead: Darkvision 60ft, undead immunities, unliving

Necrovite Graft: Fast Healing, Fatigue aura, immunity to cold and electricity, rejuvenation, undead mastery,
technomancer hacks or mystic connections by CR, Bluff, Computers, Mysticism, Sense Motive as master skills
spells form both mystic and technomancer lists, by cr.

Special abilities:
Breath weapon: 65ft cone, 11d6 C, DC19, usable every 1d4 rounds

Draconic traits: Blindsense 60 feet, darkvision 120 feet, Fly speed (clumsy)

Spells (cr 10):
4th (3/day)- two 4th level spells, 3rd (6/day) four 3rd level spells, 2nd(at will), 2 second level spells

To me the undead traits are more important then the dragon ones, so i used an undead type, and added the dragons senses and flight as a special ability. The Spell caster array and necrovite graft already provide most of the perks for a mystic or technomancer graft, unless you really wanted a spell cache.

Templates aren't about getting every trait of your monster. They're about nailing the important parts. You can add missing traits on your own, but beware of giving it a ton of extra special abilities (which this monster has for cr 10). If you want to make sure your party knows it's a dragon, make it clear that it's a giant skeletal dragon, with wings and claws and the ability to speak.

Also a side note, a cr10 dragon is a juvenile, so you have a baby dracolich here.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Benjamin Medrano wrote:
...Why would you add both the dragon and undead grafts?

Because that's what I'm used to doing with creatures in other d20 systems. Start with a creature, add X and possibly Y templates, add Z character levels. Figure out final CR.

Benjamin Medrano wrote:
You just apply one of them. As it says in the adjustments section of the Creature Type entry, though this is for class vs. creature type: "You should only use the adjustments for the creature type graft or the adjustments entry for the class graft, not both-decide whether the adjustments from its class or the the adjustments from its creature type are more important and apply only those."

I saw that line, that was just the sort of thing I was looking for in the type/template section and was hoping for clarification on. If that's what everyone else is doing, and it's working, that's what I'll do. If it's there (or otherwise obvious) and I just missed it, I'll chalk all this up to reading it too quickly and go back to my DM hole.

SirShua wrote:
Templates aren't about getting every trait of your monster. They're about nailing the important parts. You can add missing traits on your own, but beware of giving it a ton of extra special abilities (which this monster has for cr 10). If you want to make sure your party knows it's a dragon, make it clear that it's a giant skeletal dragon, with wings and claws and the ability to speak.

It's that 'beware' line that bothers me, as I'm going to be running a campaign (in a couple months) without having played the game first. All I have is numbers in tables to look at. I don't know what kinds of weapons or spells my players are going to pick, or how that will impact what I need to build, yet. And the AA1 doesn't have a lot of examples to compare my final products with. I feel really really comfortable with the CR rules in d20, and I appreciate the guardrails of the "This templates adds +2 to the CR" or having 40 other CRX monsters to look at and compare with in those rules (even when they're blatantly wrong).

SirShua wrote:
Also a side note, a cr10 dragon is a juvenile, so you have a baby dracolich here.

Yeah, I really appreciate the example you made. It was very helpful in getting a feel for how you're (and presumably other GMs) are doing it. But I did just intend that to be an example, I don't know what actual level I'd consider putting in something that extreme.

Since there aren't any tables of random plants/animals I'll probably end up hand making a bunch of those for random encounters and seeing how they play out first.

EDIT: Oh and thank you (and everyone else) for taking the time to respond and try to help.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

If you're worried about extra abilities, see if they play a major role or go over the allotment for CR:

This dracolich has these special abilities: Flight, Blindsense, darkvision, undead immunities, fast healing, fatigue aura, immunity to cold and electricity, rejuvenation, undead mastery, two technomancer hacks or connection powers, spellcasting and a breath weapon.

Non-standard senses and movement are usually free, in this case the enhanced darkvision, blindsense, and flight speed.

Rejuvenation is free as it has no role in combat.

I would say undead mastery is free, as additional undead would be added to the CR of an encounter anyways, and only features if the party brings their own undead.

Now we get into difficult territory. There's an argument for technomancer hacks and connection powers being counted against our 2 special abilities, since they can add new effects. Some however require certain other abilities to be effective. I'd rule these as free depending on how major the thing is in the context of an encounter.

I am willing to call the passive elements of the grafts free as well, as they are inherent to the creature (this is a judgement call): Undead immunities, fast healing, fatigue aura, immunity to cold and electricity. However, these add an immense amount of survivability, and undead immunities make the creature very difficult to disable or CC.

The creature has spell casting: that's huge and should count, even though it's required by the necrovite graft
The creature has a fairly potent breath weapon, that we added outside of any mentioned templates. That counts.

So I'd judge that we're still with-in the 2 significant special abilities range. Though I'd also consider giving a moderate health boost and adjusting the CR up one.


For fun and since i did most of it anyway, this is how i envisioned the final monster

Dracolich CR 10
CE Large undead
Init +0 Senses: Blindsense 60ft, darkvision 120 ft; Perception +19
Aura Fatigue (30ft, DC19)

Defense HP 140, RP 5
EAC 22, KAC 23
Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +13
Defensive Abilities: fast healing 10, rejuvenation; Immunities: cold, electricity, undead immunities;
DR 5/magic

Offense
Speed 40ft, Fly 150ft (Ex. Clumsy)
Melee: bite +16 (2d8+13)
Multiattack: bite+12 (2d8+13), 2 claws +12 (1d10+13), tail slap +12(1d10+13)
Space: 10ft, Reach: 10ft (15ft with bite)
Offensive abilities: Breath weapon (65ft cone, 11d6 C, DC 18 half, usable every 1d4 rounds), undead mastery
Spells known (CL 10th, Ranged +22):
4th (3/day) Rewire Flesh, Enervation
3rd (6/day) Irradiate, Slow, Bestow Curse, Synaptic pulse
2nd (at will) See Invisibility, Hurl Forcedisk

Statistics
Str+3, Dex +0, Con-, Int+8, Wis+5, Cha+0
Skills: Acrobatics+24, Bluff+24, Computers+24, Mysticism+24, Sense Motive+24, Life Science +19
Languages: Common, Draconic, Eoxian, Auran
Other Abilities: magic hacks: widened spell, fabricate arms


SirShua wrote:
If you're worried about extra abilities, see if they play a major role or go over the allotment for CR:

Emphasis added

Now I see what I was missing. I totally missed the special abilities allotment limits. I must have been dozing off when I read that.

Based on the rest of your post, I'm still likely going to have to make some judgement calls about what counts as a significant special ability when I'm making something weird. I might also have to add special abilities to "lesser" mortals in the same CR to make them compete fairly. But at least now I can see the guard rails.

Awesome. Thank you for pointing out what should have been obvious to me. And thank you again to everyone for getting me here.


pithica42 wrote:
Benjamin Medrano wrote:
...Why would you add both the dragon and undead grafts?

Because that's what I'm used to doing with creatures in other d20 systems. Start with a creature, add X and possibly Y templates, add Z character levels. Figure out final CR.

Benjamin Medrano wrote:
You just apply one of them. As it says in the adjustments section of the Creature Type entry, though this is for class vs. creature type: "You should only use the adjustments for the creature type graft or the adjustments entry for the class graft, not both-decide whether the adjustments from its class or the the adjustments from its creature type are more important and apply only those."

I saw that line, that was just the sort of thing I was looking for in the type/template section and was hoping for clarification on. If that's what everyone else is doing, and it's working, that's what I'll do. If it's there (or otherwise obvious) and I just missed it, I'll chalk all this up to reading it too quickly and go back to my DM hole.

Pulling this part because they highlight another part that you at first missed. You assumed, coming out of 3.- that to build a monster you started with a base and converted it until you got the monster you want. With these rules though, your starting point is the final monster; there's no conversion. You begin the whole process building a undead dracolich, and maybe circle back to pick up a dragon specific ability if you really want one.

So you'd start by being a spellcaster. Add undead graft. Then the subtype of the dragon you want (not the dragon template graft, just their subtype like "water" for black dragon). Add necrovite template. Pick your remaining abilities and spells using ones off either the technomancer or black dragon grafts.

I also reccomend reading the monster rules in pathfinder unchained. They're similar enough, and spelled out at greater length, that you can get a sense of what the devs were thinking when they were writing the AA rules.


pithica42 wrote:
Benjamin Medrano wrote:
...Why would you add both the dragon and undead grafts?

Because that's what I'm used to doing with creatures in other d20 systems. Start with a creature, add X and possibly Y templates, add Z character levels. Figure out final CR.

Benjamin Medrano wrote:
You just apply one of them. As it says in the adjustments section of the Creature Type entry, though this is for class vs. creature type: "You should only use the adjustments for the creature type graft or the adjustments entry for the class graft, not both-decide whether the adjustments from its class or the the adjustments from its creature type are more important and apply only those."

I saw that line, that was just the sort of thing I was looking for in the type/template section and was hoping for clarification on. If that's what everyone else is doing, and it's working, that's what I'll do. If it's there (or otherwise obvious) and I just missed it, I'll chalk all this up to reading it too quickly and go back to my DM hole.

I was looking at my previous comment, and realized it may have come across somewhat rudely. If so, please understand that I was puzzled, not trying to be critical, and I apologize for any hard feelings it may have caused.

You're right, this is a very different system than D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder as a whole, but in many ways its much simpler. The couple of people who've posted before this post of mine went through it in more detail, so I won't belabor the point.

But I do second the recommendation of looking at the Simple Monster Creation rules from Pathfinder Unchained. They're very similar to the rules in Alien Archive, and I've built about 60-80 monsters with them to get comfortable with the system and ad-hoc adjustments, and very much like it.


AnimatedPaper wrote:


Pulling this part because they highlight another part that you at first missed. You assumed, coming out of 3.- that to build a monster you started with a base and converted it until you got the monster you want. With these rules though, your starting point is the final monster; there's no conversion. You begin the whole process building a undead dracolich, and maybe circle back to pick up a dragon specific ability if you really want one.

That probably explains the confusion I still have. I re-read the rules last night before bed, and they definitely still seem backwards. I'm probably going to just have to sit down and actually make some monsters with it to wrap my brain around the new way of thinking. I think I understand, but I don't think I grok, yet.

Benjamin Medrano wrote:


I was looking at my previous comment, and realized it may have come across somewhat rudely. If so, please understand that I was puzzled, not trying to be critical, and I apologize for any hard feelings it may have caused.

I didn't think you (or anyone else) was being rude. Like, at all. No worries. I was trying to be self-deprecating, as I have a tendency to come off as a know-it-all and argumentative, especially in text.

Quote:
But I do second the recommendation of looking at the Simple Monster Creation rules from Pathfinder Unchained. They're very similar to the rules in Alien Archive, and I've built about 60-80 monsters with them to get comfortable with the system and ad-hoc adjustments, and very much like it.

Since this is the second recommendation, I'll see what I can do.

Thanks again.

Community / Forums / Starfinder / Rules Questions / Template Grafts and their affects on CR / XP? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions