Should Druids know the spells from every sourcebook?

[Evil Emperor]

I'm a fairly new DM to Pathfinder. One of my players made a druid, and apparently they know every spell of the levels that they can cast. Should they know all of the spells from all of sourcebooks or only the spells from the corebook? Are they overpowered if they do, is it fine if they do?

[stigand]

following

[Mondragon]

Druids, clerics, Rangers, Paladins and sure some one more "know" all the spells.

The GM choice what sources will use in his/her game.

The gm even can limit more creating home rules like you only know x spells each level being druid.

But following the rules a druid know all the existents spells for his/her level

Druids are overpowered like other pure casters (wizards, clerics even sorcerer) dont worry about that

[mswbear]

Druids are a powerful class but aren't necessarily more powerful then an other full caster.....and if you are using other full casters as the measure then they certainly aren't overpowered regardless of spell selection.

As far as if they "should"....It would depend on how you view them gaining spells. Druids get their spells from nature and through communing with nature. It doesn't indicate anywhere that anything would be preventing them from having those spells but as a GM, you certainly get to set limits as you see fit.

If a druid communes with nature in the desert would they gain a bunch of ice spells?

One could argue that they would since nature encompasses all ecosystems and environments so regardless of where they do their communing they would have access to all of what nature is able to provide.

However, one could argue that spells could be regionally locked in some way. Gaining an abundance of ice spells in the desert doesn't make sense as that part of nature is fairly if not totally unfamiliar with ice and the natural properties of ice and therefor cannot grant ice spells.....of course doing this greatly hinders the effectiveness of the druid in a way that no other class would be hindered by and is unsupported by the rules as written.

If you don't want spells from a certain source just ban anything from that source at your game. If you are only banning some things from it be prepared to justify with more then "because I'm GM and I say so".

[Evil Emperor]

Mondragon wrote:

Druids, clerics, Rangers, Paladins and sure some one more "know" all the spells.

The GM choice what sources will use in his/her game.

The gm even can limit more creating home rules like you only know x spells each level being druid.

But following the rules a druid know all the existents spells for his/her level

Druids are overpowered like other pure casters (wizards, clerics even sorcerer) dont worry about that

Thanks for your reply. I suppose the druid can keep his spells then.

mswbear wrote:

Druids are a powerful class but aren't necessarily more powerful then an other full caster.....and if you are using other full casters as the measure then they certainly aren't overpowered regardless of spell selection.

As far as if they "should"....It would depend on how you view them gaining spells. Druids get their spells from nature and through communing with nature. It doesn't indicate anywhere that anything would be preventing them from having those spells but as a GM, you certainly get to set limits as you see fit.

If a druid communes with nature in the desert would they gain a bunch of ice spells?

One could argue that they would since nature encompasses all ecosystems and environments so regardless of where they do their communing they would have access to all of what nature is able to provide.

However, one could argue that spells could be regionally locked in some way. Gaining an abundance of ice spells in the desert doesn't make sense as that part of nature is fairly if not totally unfamiliar with ice and the natural properties of ice and therefor cannot grant ice spells.....of course doing this greatly hinders the effectiveness of the druid in a way that no other class would be hindered by and is unsupported by the rules as written.

If you don't want spells from a certain source just ban anything from that source at your game. If you are only banning some things from it be prepared to justify with more then "because I'm GM and I say so".

I don't have any particular spells that bother me (I haven't even read all of them yet). I was just wondering how others do it, since the amount of spells is huge, at least compared to what I'm used to in other RPGs and also D&D-based computer games (I think in Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale divine spellcasters have to learn spells same as arcane spell casters).

I was just basically double-checking I understand the rules properly, and also to find out how others do it. I don't want to give the players something very powerful that they shouldn't have due to my inexperience.

As the spell list, with sourcebook spells included, is quite large, the druid player is a bit overwhelmed too as what spells to prepare, but I'm sure he'll manage.

[Perfect Tommy]

Probably not. The variations with just summon natures ally is daunting.

however, I suggest you read a good guide to druids..

[Bwang]

RAW, no. Other sources are not CORE, therefor not a part of the game.

In practice, most GMs filter spells by campaign. Ours has a number of Druid orders and all have their own lists (mostly the same, but...). A Druid cannot cast any spell that destroys nature...except for the Black Rose (various 'blight' spells and abilities). Taking any of the 'nature domains' also limits and grants spell choice. Elemental focused Druids are really good for such spells, but see a number of others 'slighted' (a la school specialization). It is all a part of her world and gives the texture we can really get into. YMMV.

[Milo v3]

By the rules, yes they know all druid spells (and clerics know all cleric spells). Feel free to houserule that into something else for you're own games if you feel this is too open.

[Jeraa]

Bwang wrote:

RAW, no. Other sources are not CORE, therefor not a part of the game.

In practice, most GMs filter spells by campaign. Ours has a number of Druid orders and all have their own lists (mostly the same, but...). A Druid cannot cast any spell that destroys nature...except for the Black Rose (various 'blight' spells and abilities). Taking any of the 'nature domains' also limits and grants spell choice. Elemental focused Druids are really good for such spells, but see a number of others 'slighted' (a la school specialization). It is all a part of her world and gives the texture we can really get into. YMMV.

RAW, yes. Whatever sourcebooks you choose to use, the druid automatically knows every druid spell in them. Unlike a wizard (and others) who only know certain specific spells and must choose to learn one of the spells.

Anything else is a houserule. Which is fine, but should not be presented as a rule in the Rules Questions forum.

[2bz2p]

Since you are new to GMing, this is advice from a long term GM:

1) If I don't have the source book, your PC cannot know the spell. Even if that material is online. Of course, I can make an exception to that, but it's my call, not the player's.

2) I do not allow players to choose spells from non-Paizo material even if I have the source book unless I agree it is acceptable. There is some crazy stuff out there. Also some really good stuff too.

3) You can choose, when a new resource comes to hand, to have some kind of slow revelation, discovery, or something in-game before you just allow another rack of spells to be discovered overnight. You can choose to just allow them all at once, but be consistent in that choice.

[bhampton]

2bz2p wrote:

Since you are new to GMing, this is advice from a long term GM:

1) If I don't have the source book, your PC cannot know the spell. Even if that material is online. Of course, I can make an exception to that, but it's my call, not the player's.

2) I do not allow players to choose spells from non-Paizo material even if I have the source book unless I agree it is acceptable. There is some crazy stuff out there. Also some really good stuff too.

3) You can choose, when a new resource comes to hand, to have some kind of slow revelation, discovery, or something in-game before you just allow another rack of spells to be discovered overnight. You can choose to just allow them all at once, but be consistent in that choice.

This.

Though I run an online campaign, so most of the material is PRD based. If a player wants a spell thats not in the PRD we'll discuss it beforehand.
This also goes for feats and archtypes as well.

[AaronUnicorn]

I guess my take on it is that the Druid doesn't know to ask for spells that the player doesn't know to ask for.

Can the forces behind their faith grant that spell? Sure thing. It's on the Druid spell list, after all. But if the player and the character haven't been exposed to it, then they can't ask for it.

[Gorbacz]

Milo v3 wrote:

By the rules, yes they know all druid spells (and clerics know all cleric spells). Feel free to houserule that into something else for you're own games if you feel this is too open.

Including 3PP spells?

3.5 spells?

Could you point to RAW answers?

Thank you.

[Renata Maclean]

Gorbacz wrote:

Milo v3 wrote:

By the rules, yes they know all druid spells (and clerics know all cleric spells). Feel free to houserule that into something else for you're own games if you feel this is too open.

Including 3PP spells?

3.5 spells?

Could you point to RAW answers?

Thank you.

"All spells" means "All spells that exist (within the setting)"

If you're not using 3.5 or 3PP rules, the spells there don't count as part of the set of "All druid spells" so they don't get them

[Ring_of_Gyges]

Gorbacz wrote:

Could you point to RAW answers?

Sure, core rulebook page 49. "A druid may prepare and cast any spell on the druid spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation."

If the spell is on the druid spell list, the druid may prepare it. When Champions of the Wild (or whatever) publishes Cheetah's Sprint and says it is a first level druid spell, that adds it to the druid list.

If you don't like Cheetah's Sprint (or don't like a core spell for that matter) you may of course remove it from your game, but I don't understand what one could possibly mean by the claim that it isn't a druid spell by RAW.

[Volkard Abendroth]

Gorbacz wrote:

Milo v3 wrote:

By the rules, yes they know all druid spells (and clerics know all cleric spells). Feel free to houserule that into something else for you're own games if you feel this is too open.

Including 3PP spells?

3.5 spells?

Could you point to RAW answers?

Thank you.

RAW is anything printed by Paizo.

The use of non-Paizo published material is strictly house-rule territory and DM discretion.

If you are going to argue that RAW includes sources other than Paizo, you can quote this post as a written source for your RAW.

[Claxon]

Prepared divine spellcasters don't have a method of "acquiring" spells. They automatically know all spells on their spell list and are capable of preparing them.

As a GM you're allowed to limit what sources a player is allowed to use. I personally find that I allow all hardback books printed by Paizo, and ask players to talk to me if they want something out of non-hardback Paizo books. I also reserve the right to remove/change any particular elements that I find to be problematic (e.g. Simulacrum).

But in general, whatever you allow the druid should know all driuid spells contained in those sources.

[Tim Emrick]

2bz2p wrote:

Since you are new to GMing, this is advice from a long term GM:

1) If I don't have the source book, your PC cannot know the spell. Even if that material is online. Of course, I can make an exception to that, but it's my call, not the player's.

Seconded. In all my home games, I have a rule that I have to own the book for any of its content to be available in the game. (With the same exception as 2bz2p, if I see a need for it in game, such as some of the common, mundane equipment from UE before I owned it.)

In many of my games, I limit it even further. For example, in my current campaign, players have full access to the CRB and APG, plus their (core) race's entry in ARG. I own UM, UC, ACG, and OA, but they are off-limits for now because we're making sure everyone has a solid grasp of the core rules before opening up more content. (And I probably won't ever use any hybrid or occult classes in this campaign.)

2bz2p wrote:

2) I do not allow players to choose spells from non-Paizo material even if I have the source book unless I agree it is acceptable. There is some crazy stuff out there. Also some really good stuff too.

Ditto. I don't own much 3PP content for PF anyway.

2bz2p wrote:

3) You can choose, when a new resource comes to hand, to have some kind of slow revelation, discovery, or something in-game before you just allow another rack of spells to be discovered overnight. You can choose to just allow them all at once, but be consistent in that choice.

In Pathfinder Short Cuts: Inquisitor Spells of Freeport, Owen K.C. Stephens gives some simple rules for "uncommon divine spells." The preview image on that product page includes the relevant text (though the type is *really* small), but here's the short version: Whenever a new sourcebook is introduced into the campaign, the GM can rule that the new spells are uncommon. Divine spellcasters have to make some in-game effort to learn those new spells, but this requires less expense than a wizard adding a new spell to a spellbook. Spontaneous casters ignore this restriction, because they already have a limited number of known spells.

In my current game, I've taken this a step farther and ruled that any spell, for any class, that is not in the CRB, APG, or ARG is uncommon and must be acquired through play.