Okay so I made a shifter, it was horrible I had to multiclass I’m now disappointed in everything I’ve achieved.
It was very dramatic.
So I’ve tried again and instead of trying to be smart I’ve gone for what appeal to me. Namely the stag form. I want to use the gore attack in a charge so I thought perhaps Bulette style would be the way to go.
What I have learned from this is that I have no idea how you make overrun worth while or why one would ever bother... seriously all this whole feat chain seems to achieve is you can charge through someone else to do one normal charge attack to another target and eventually you can do some small negligible damage to the guy you ran over.
So my questions are three fold
1) am I missing something
2) is there a better way to leverage my gore attack and increased mobility with a charge
3) am I right in thinking one could use the claws damage progression for the stags hooves?
What I have learned from this is that I have no idea how you make overrun worth while or why one would ever bother... seriously all this whole feat chain seems to achieve is you can charge through someone else to do one normal charge attack to another target and eventually you can do some small negligible damage to the guy you ran over.
1) That's pretty much what overrun is for--getting past foes trying to block your path. If you want to charge through into the castle without having to slaughter the guards in your way, you either Acrobatics or overrun. Ditto if you're trying to push your way to the squishy wizard in the back. Any damage you do on the way thanks to feats is incidental.
That does leave Bulette Rampage as a suboptimal feat in most cases. Oh well.
2) I would look for abilities that improve charge or movement-plus-attack-type actions specifically, or those that grant the trample ability (sadly, most of those require you to be mounted or polymorphed). There are so many combat styles and feats at this point that I wish you luck finding what you're looking for! But it does appear that overrun isn't what you're looking for.
3) Yep:
While a shifter uses wild shape to assume her aspect’s major form, her natural attacks gain the same benefits granted by her shifter claws ability. If the form she takes has claw attacks, she can use either the base damage of her shifter claws or the damage of the form’s claws, whichever is greater. If the form does not have claw attacks, she can choose up to two natural attacks that would deal less damage than her shifter claw damage and have those attacks instead deal the same damage as her shifter claws.
Thanks Blaphers
1) welp I’ll keep that on the back burner for now. Better than nothing for leveraging the old gore and at least looks kewl charging over people
2) yeah, not gonna lie I don’t know where to look xD
I’ll have a scan and see what pops out
3) well that’s nice.
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<3 Here's hoping you figure out how to RAGESTAGPOUNCE.
If you have some sort of bonus feats then overrun can be boosted up fast enough to do decent damage. Spiked destroyer, vicious stomp and greater overrun is 3 separate attacks against those you knock down. There's even a style (brute) about boosting that further, which is probably more useful than the bulette style. As I understand it the shifter doesn't get any relevant bonus feats though.
Alternatives? I don't know exactly what your increased mobility on a charge does. Charging stag style could probably improve that mobility further though I wouldn't bother with the later feats in the style. A gore attack probably isn't anything special unless you're a high-level barbarian.
Nope no bonus feats
I don’t know why.
A slow burn build with Vicious stomp and greater overrun isn’t a bad idea though.
Stag style whilst useful in name didn’t seem too great in function.
Something like
1) PA
3) Imroved overrun
5) Combat reflexes
7) Greater Overrun
9) Improved unarmed strike (dead feat >.>)
11) Vicious Stomp
I don’t think spiked destroyed helps because the character in questions spikes would be melded into there form whenever they’re a stag.
So the later options would be
13) Heavy armour prof (dead)
15) bulette charge style
17) bulette leap
19) Bulette Rampage
Meh or
13) Curnogun smash
15) hurtful
17) intimidating prowess
19) blank
I think the latter is better, charge through, knocking someone over, take two aoo’s and then PA the charge target, intimidate them, and hit them again with hurtful.
Potentially 4 attacks from a charge. Seems decent. Thankess guys!
Couldn't you put on barding (with or without spikes) after you change into a deer? Full metal stag is a cool image IMO.
Ask your GM if they will allow you to take/use some modified version of the Trample Feat. That could open additional trample related feats.
Interesting idea. Yes I think you proboobly could.
I leave spiked destroyer because it eats my swift and I prefer hurtful for making an attack with gore rather than spikes. But I’ll keep the barding idea because you’re right that sounds awesome looking.
... then again spiked destroyer would be less feat hungry.
Say feat 13 would be spiked destroyer.
What would you do with the other 3?
My thoughts on Overrun revolves around the Siegebreaker.
Two levels of Siegebreaker allows you to freely overrun after an Bullrush. Additionally, you deal STR+2+Enhancement Bonus per overrun and bullrush. Then add in say, Spiked Destroyer and/or Merciless Rush and you begin to get places.
Quick Bullrush allows you to do this as part of a full attack. If you have powerful charge (not sure if you do as a Stag) then you can take Minotaur's Charge instead to get all of this to trigger off a charge. Being able to overrun multiple foes with Bulette Style means you can charge, bullrush, overrun, and then continue on to overrun multiple foes.
Keep in mind, you can also use Vicious Stomp and Elephant Stomp together.
Now all of this is goofed up if your opponent is too big, which is where Poised and Imposing Bearing comes in handy...
This was never really meant to work with Shifter Dip, since it requires an absurd amount of feats and a fighter archetype but I do love my rushing builds ^_^
Pick and choose feats towards victory!
As I have no DM and this is all theoretical it’ll be rather hard to ask. Thanks for the suggestion though. I did actually think it was a shame that feat needed you to be mounted.
Now the Shavtoosh is a nifty little item indeed. I like it. Thank you.
.
My thoughts on Overrun revolves around the [link=Siegebreaker Fighter]http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Fighter%20S iegebreaker[/link].
Your link is broken :( thanks for the effort though. I don’t really want to multiclass, I did a multiclass build already which kinda worked but it’s so painful for shifters so I chucked the build.
Two levels of Siegebreaker allows you to freely overrun after an Bullrush. Additionally, you deal STR+2+Enhancement Bonus per overrun and bullrush. Then add in say, Spiked Destroyer and/or Merciless Rush and you begin to get places.
Minus the multiclass Merciless rush is an interesting idea. Not sure if it’s worth the bull rush build since I want my MO to be overrun.
Quick Bullrush allows you to do this as part of a full attack. If you have powerful charge (not sure if you do as a Stag) then you can take Minotaur's Charge instead to get all of this to trigger off a charge. Being able to overrun multiple foes with Bulette Style means you can charge, bullrush, overrun, and then continue on to overrun multiple foes.
I don’t think I do get that no. Since we’re so feat starved it’s quite difficult to fit in bulette style, when we’re going for things like spiked destroyer and the grater overrunn chain.
Keep in mind, you can also use Vicious Stomp and Elephant Stomp together.
Can you explain this I don’t understand how it would work?
We’re you to charge you couldKnock someone over, Vicious stomp em, then stop and elephant stomp em. As a swift
But couldn’t you charge someone, knock someone else over Vicious and spiked destroyer them, not stop and complete the charge against someone else with an attack?
Now all of this is goofed up if your opponent is too big, which is where Poised and Imposing Bearing comes in handy...This was never really meant to work with Shifter Dip, since it requires an absurd amount of feats and a fighter archetype but I do love my rushing builds ^_^
Pick and choose feats towards victory!
You’ve certainly given me something to think about
Say you get IUS from that bit of cloth, take vicious stomp at 9 and spiked destroyer at 11. Heavy armor at 13 might be useful rather than dead. Past that you could take armor focus and poised/imposing bearing to be able to overrun everything, or one of the options you've mentioned, or something different - panther style & successors combine well with moving around a lot.
I think I’d try to go for some decent Dex investment for AC prior to that level and to help combat reflexes. So I’m not sure how much benefit the heavy Armor would grant.
I want to take poised but don’t I need the Armor training class feature?
The armor mastery feats (like poised bearing) allow you to take Armor Focus feat instead of armor training.
Also the armor-based style feats require you to be wearing the armor in their prerequisite to use them. These are layer out in the Armor Master's Handbook but not very well on d20PFSRD.com
Oh nifty! thanks.
So
maybe this is best
1) PA
3) Improved overrun
5) Combat reflexes
7) Greater Overrun
9) Vicious Stomp
11) Spiked Destroyer
13) Armor Focus
15) Poised Bearing
17) Panther Style
19) Panther Claw
That way I have the most potential attacks I think.
up to 3 on the overrun target. 1 on the charge target, and as many AOE's as I take and have left over after Greater and Stomp.
Yeah I think thats best.
Okay so I have done a little bit of maths to workout where this character sits. I wouldn't normally bother but given how new the class is I thought it might be worth running the numbers on our fun little charge build.
Especially since STR builds look very difficult to work with a shifter.
Stat distribution would be something like.
Cha: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Str: 18
Con: 14
Dex: 14
investing 4 level ups in STR.
So take any race that can give a +2 to STR.
Give them a Pale green Ioun Stone, A dusty Rose Prism, A thorny Silver Ioun Stone, Ring of protection, +5 Armor with Spikes, Belt of STR/DEX/CON, Amulet of MF.
Take the above feat list
AC 10 +11(+5 Iron wood breastplate) +5 (Defensive Instinct) +5 (Deflection) +4 (NA) +3 (Dex) +2 (Wis) +1 (insight) +1 (Armor Focus) -1 (Size) = 41. Decent. Not Great. But good enough.
Potential Attacks.
to hit
20(BAB)+11(STR)+5(MF)+1(Competence)-1(Size)-5(only for secondary attacks)
damage
2D6(Gore)/1D10(hooves)+11(STR)+5(MF).
Potential modifications for PA, +5 damage (STR) if using a single primary natural attack, potentially a +1 to hit and AC for haste and an additional Gore attack as part of a full attack. Potentially a +2 for charge. Although I don't know if that would apply to the AOO made during a charge. I'm guessing not.
Gore Attack: +36 (2D6+21)
Gore Power Attack: +30 (2D6+39)
Stag Full Attack +36 (2D6+16) +31 (1D10+10) x2
Stag Full Power Attack +30 (2D6+28) +26 x2(1D10+16)
Spiked Armor +36 (1D8+16)
Spiked Armor Power Attack +30 (1D8+28)
For human form, you lose the +NA but you don't have the negative from size to AC. So AC is 38.
For Damage our STR goes down by 4 and we lose gore, but the claws are primary attacks.
so
Claw Attack +35 (1D10+18)
Claw Power Attack +29 (1D10+36)
Human Full Attack +35 (1D10+14)x2
Human Full Power Attack +29 (1D10+26)x2
Our bonus to overrun as a stag is
20+11+5+4+2+1 = 43. Good but not great.
Conclusion.
Full attacking is bad, AC is good enough, If we successfully overrun someone then we get to do decent damage and create some battlefield control. Shame our overrun isn't better.
Anyone know anyways to further raise that bonus?
Gauntlets of the skilled maneuver for an untyped +2 to a maneuver. If you can get heroism via potion or otherwise that's a +2 morale bonus. I'm a little dubious about how you'd put them on but there's probably some magical way to attach horseshoes of sacred silver, +2 sacred bonus to overrun among other things.
Can you get ironwood gauntlets? I presume you can...
Be pretty kewl to get special stag shoes made
Gauntlets will merge in but still function when you wild shape. BTW, I think ironwood has a limited duration; use dragonhide armor instead.
You’re right it does, I forget cause it’s in days xD.
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<3 Here's hoping you figure out how to RAGESTAGPOUNCE.
AM NOT "AM BARBARIAN," BUT AM DIFFERENT BARBARIAN, AND AM MAYBE HAVE SOLUTION.
1. BE AM BARBARIAN.
2. TAKE BEASTKIN BERSERKER ARCHETYPE.
3. TURN INTO DEER.
4. TAKE BEAST TOTEM CHAIN.
5. CHARGE AND SMASH CASTIES WITH GORE AND FREE CLAWS.
6. ???
7. PROFIT.
(HAD TALKYMAN COUNT AND SPELL FOR ME. AM NOT ABLE TO COUNT THAT HIGH OR WRITE GOOD BY SELF.)
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The Overrunner uses Bulette Style. But is not a deer. The Overrunner is very multi-class, so much of this will not help you, but maybe you learn something.
Relevant to a single class shifter though...
Traits: Favored Champion and Giant-harried
Feats not shown above:
Tribal Scars (Greattusk): 6 HP, +2 to Overrun, and +2 to ride.
Hard Headed: +1 CMB if you've got a specific helmet.
About Bulette Style. Bulette Leap is the real winner here. Basically you can play checkers across the map every turn, for the cost of -2 on each piece you leap over until you fail. And with your build to do damage to each one, it gets nifty.
Gear:
Dwarven Boulder Helmet (if Hard Headed)
Titanic Armor: Count as a size bigger for CMB, which determines what you can Overrun. But as it's a +3 bonus, stacking it onto Wild armor is hugely expensive. Honestly since Wild got nerfed, and you're looking at Stag as your main form, you might be better off just buying Stag Barding. And don't forget the armor spikes.
Tusk Blades: Put these on your horns to make your gore attack better.
Brawling enchantment: I'll leave you to find a way to get a weapon you can put this on, but you add its enhancement bonus on CMB.
Belt of Thunderous Charging: +2str belt, adds another +2 to bull rush and overrun. And your weapons count as a size bigger when you charge.
Boots of the Mastodon: +2 enhancement to overrun and some activated abilities.
Demonspike Pauldrons: Your armor spikes do more damage (for use with Spiked Destroyer)
Gauntlet of the Skilled Maneuver: +2 Overrun.
Gladiator's sandals: If you do a cmb in a surprise round, you get +4. Situational though, and might count as Activation.
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone: Not as good as it used to be, but put it in a Wayfinder and get +1 to CMB.
Silvery Thorny Ioun Stone: +2 to Overrun (competence)
Victor's Belt: +2 to CMB, but generally not as good as the other belt.
Potion of Aspect of the Bear: +2 AC and CMB while it lasts. Doesn't stack with Boots of the Mastodon.
Traits: Favored Champion (1/d: Reroll a combat maneuver check)
Giant-harried (+1 on CMB & CMD vs things bigger than me)
1. Fighter 1
Power Attack
2. Vigilante 1
3. Vigilante 2 (Imp Overrun)
Bulette Style
4. Barbarian 1
5. Barbarian 2
Bulette Leap
6. Fighter 2
7. Fighter 3
Bulette Rampage
8.
9.
Spiked Destroyer
10.
11.
Greater Overrun
12.
13.
Tribal Scars (Greattusk)
Fighter stacks Foehammer and Siegebreaker. Breaker rush does damage to things I overrun, Breaker Momentum gives me a free overrun after I bull rush, Sledgehammer gives me +2 to overrun.
Barbarian is Armored Hulk. Overbearing Advance adds my strength as damage to things I overrun.
Vigilante is Avenger version. Favored Maneuver gives me Improved Overrun and a +2 if they're unaware of me. If I take more levels I can get Nothing Can Stop Me to get rid of something between me and the target.
A level of Oracle (Apocalypse) gives me Unstoppable Overrun, so I can go through things 2 sizes bigger than me.
Since I'll be getting into flank anyways, 2 levels of Rogue lets me tag Slow Reactions or Distracting Attack onto a sneak attack, so the target either can't take AoO's or is flat footed, respectively.
Thank you muchly favoured champion, tusk blades, boots of the mastodon, and demon spikes are all new to me.
With the boots and the gauntlets and dusty rose Wayfinder that puts me at 48 and with the trait we can re-roll once.
Pretty happy with that.
A good point
Thank you.