Not wanting to practice necromancy on some old thread, I figured I ask what people currently think about this. Can one use shadow evocation to counter a fireball?
On one hand, shadow evocation is tapping energy from the Plane of Shadow to cast a quasi-real, illusory version of a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell of 4th level or lower. Does it meet the requirement for counterspell which states:
To complete the action, you must then cast an appropriate spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (or have a slot of the appropriate level available), you cast it, creating a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results.
I can see a couple of different ways. The illusion is effectively a fireball, and as such it is sufficient for counterspell purposes. Or it isn't the *same* spell so no it can't be used. Or some middle ground where it counters some of the effect. Or it only works if the caster believes that it's a real fireball by failing his will save :)
Who makes the save to disbelieve ? The caster of the spell that is being countered ? If he makes it, does that mean that there's only a 20% chance that the counter succeeds in countering ?
It's a lot cleaner if it simply doesn't work.
I dunno. I kinda like that interpretation, SlimGauge.
It's 20% real. And a 1st-lvl caster can counterspell an archmage, so I don't think that 20% matters if the 5% doesn't.
I wouldn't even give the archmage's save a place in the math. He'll make the save, of course, and he'll make the Spellcraft and KN:Arcana to know exactly what happened: the sorceress counterspelled him, and can probably do it again.
Because the archmage has an 'I win' button. It's so much more interesting if someone else has the 'Not this time' button.
Not wanting to practice necromancy on some old thread, I figured I ask what people currently think about this. Can one use shadow evocation to counter a fireball?
On one hand, shadow evocation is tapping energy from the Plane of Shadow to cast a quasi-real, illusory version of a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell of 4th level or lower. Does it meet the requirement for counterspell which states:
To complete the action, you must then cast an appropriate spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (or have a slot of the appropriate level available), you cast it, creating a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results.I can see a couple of different ways. The illusion is effectively a fireball, and as such it is sufficient for counterspell purposes. Or it isn't the *same* spell so no it can't be used. Or some middle ground where it counters some of the effect. Or it only works if the caster believes that it's a real fireball by failing his will save :)
I'd rule no.
You're casting Shadow Evocation to emulate a Fireball, and not Fireball.
No takers on allowing it :( So if this is flipped, and the counterspeller is the wizard with the real fireball, and wants to counter the Shadow Evocation fireball. Does that not work either? What if he/she again believes that the fireball is real? If he tries to counter it and it doesn't work does he get another save?
No, it doesn't work.
But no wizard on his right mind is going to counterspell it anyway.
No takers on allowing it :( So if this is flipped, and the counterspeller is the wizard with the real fireball, and wants to counter the Shadow Evocation fireball. Does that not work either? What if he/she again believes that the fireball is real? If he tries to counter it and it doesn't work does he get another save?
The wannabe counter-speller needs to make a spellcraft check. If he succeeds, he correctly identifies the opponent's spell. That is, he learns that the wizard is casting Shadow Evocation. Does he ALSO learn what spell the caster is going to emulate ?
If not, then he won't know what to cast to counter, leaving him only Dispel Magic OR his own Shadow Evocation (if he has one memorized).
If so, then ? He had to make a spellcraft, so he KNOWS the the incoming spell is an illusory fireball (because he successfully spellcrafted it) so he auto-succeeds on the save. A fully-real counter to a (known to be) 20% real effect should succeed, shouldn't it ?
I concede that the only consistent answer is what everyone stated, in that the only counter to a spell is the spell itself or dispel magic. So no shadow evocation to counter fireball, nor fireball to counter shadow evocation. If a caster wants to counter shadow evocation, then he/she must use shadow evocation or dispel magic.
But those are interesting questions: Does the spellcraft check on a shadow evocation let you know what it is being used for or just that it's shadow evocation? It probably is irrelevant as it isn't going to make any real difference. Does spellcraft give you a bonus to the will save, or just makes the save irrelevant as you know it's an illusion?