The three NPC 'crafting' classes

[Piety Godfury]

I know this was touched on on another thread but I'm looking for some further clarification. Please direct me if it is addressed elsewhere.

I know that Josh has ruled that all scrolls are crafted by a cleric, druid, or wizard.

...and the answer to; "How does my Bard cast this?" was "...take ranks in UMD."

My question is:

How do I teach a scroll of Restoration, lesser to my witch familiar?

Obviously it has to be crafted by one of the divine casters. So do I need to take ranks in UMD as a Witch? Which is;
A) not a class skill
and
B) not (what I would consider) a primary or even secondary stat for witches.

...and, if so, isn't this a bit of a 'skill tax' having to take ranks in a skill to fulfill a primary function of my class?

My other question is is it assumed that wands are crafted by these as well? I think they are.

...So my witch is, essentially, inept when using a CLW wand in combat?

[Austin Morgan]

If a spell is on your Spell List, you can cast it regardless of what class made the scroll or wand, without using UMD.

[Piety Godfury]

Austin Morgan wrote:

If a spell is on your Spell List, you can cast it regardless of what class made the scroll or wand, without using UMD.

Thanks for the clarify. I had the impression it I was arcane, I needed to have the 'arcane' version to cast it.

...Too conservative on rules for my own good sometimes. ;)

[Russ Taylor]

It looks like Pathfinder RPG has kept the distinction between arcane and divine scrolls, based on the text on page 490 of the Core Rulebook. Sort of a shame - it isn't a distinction that adds much to the game, and modules almost never specify which type a scroll is. Good candidate for hand-waving away with a house rule.

So that would imply that no, a witch's familiar can not make use of a divine scroll of restoration.

[aslak]

Russ Taylor wrote:

It looks like Pathfinder RPG has kept the distinction between arcane and divine scrolls, based on the text on page 490 of the Core Rulebook. Sort of a shame - it isn't a distinction that adds much to the game, and modules almost never specify which type a scroll is. Good candidate for hand-waving away with a house rule.

So that would imply that no, a witch's familiar can not make use of a divine scroll of restoration.

But as mentioned by Austin Morgan, the distinction between divine and arcane scrolls when it comes to purchasing them in PFSOP is handwaived. Or - in other words - you can buy an arcane scroll of restoration at the same price as if it had been crafted by a druid, cleric or wizard.

[Russ Taylor]

aslak wrote:

But as mentioned by Austin Morgan, the distinction between divine and arcane scrolls when it comes to purchasing them in PFSOP is handwaived. Or - in other words - you can buy an arcane scroll of restoration at the same price as if it had been crafted by a druid, cleric or wizard.

Good. Though what Austin posted is still inaccurate. Yyou can't use any scroll, regardless of who created it, you can just *buy* a scroll of the correct type.

So your bard can't hand his scrolls over to cleric to use, as an example of the difference.

[Austin Morgan]

Oh crap, you guys are right.

Never knew items differentiated between Divine and Arcane o.O

[Russ Taylor]

Austin Morgan wrote:

Oh crap, you guys are right.

Never knew items differentiated between Divine and Arcane o.O

Just scrolls. Potions can be used by anyone (of course), and wands/staves are usable by anyone with the spell on their spell list.

[Austin Morgan]

Russ Taylor wrote:

Austin Morgan wrote:

Oh crap, you guys are right.

Never knew items differentiated between Divine and Arcane o.O

Just scrolls. Potions can be used by anyone (of course), and wands/staves are usable by anyone with the spell on their spell list.

Ah, well that makes me feel not-quite-so out-of-the-loop :D

[Joshua J. Frost]

For Pathfinder Society, the prices for all consumables, such as scrolls, that use spells from the cleric/druid/wizard spell list are based on the cost of that item as made by a cleric/druid/wizard regardless of the class's spell list it is on. This means a bard can buy a scroll of cure light wounds at the cleric/druid/wizard scroll cost but still buy it as an arcane scroll of cure light wounds. This also means that a paladin can buy a scroll of lesser restoration at the cleric/druid/wizard scroll cost and still cast it as a paladin scroll.

Scrolls that contain spells that do not appear on the cleric/druid/wizard list are made at the appropriate costs for their classes.

[Piety Godfury]

Thanks Josh!

[james maissen]

Joshua J. Frost wrote:

For Pathfinder Society, the prices for all consumables, such as scrolls, that use spells from the cleric/druid/wizard spell list are based on the cost of that item as made by a cleric/druid/wizard regardless of the class's spell list it is on. This means a bard can buy a scroll of cure light wounds at the cleric/druid/wizard scroll cost but still buy it as an arcane scroll of cure light wounds. This also means that a paladin can buy a scroll of lesser restoration at the cleric/druid/wizard scroll cost and still cast it as a paladin scroll.

Scrolls that contain spells that do not appear on the cleric/druid/wizard list are made at the appropriate costs for their classes.

So you are *lowering* the prices of certain scrolls to caster levels that RAW they cannot exist? For example a 150gp arcane scroll of silence rather than a 200gp arcane scroll of silence, etc.

And this is to make things simpler? Really?

Now new people who know the core rules will spend more on those scrolls than those who know this house rule. At least before it would be the case of someone not happening to know 3.5/Pathfinder fully well.

How is this any different than the situation that you were 'solving' with this house rule?

Really, beyond just defending this rule of yours, what is the point? Why not alter the core rules (as you are already) to say that Lesser Restoration is a level 2 paladin spell rather than a level 1 paladin spell if you dislike the idea of this as a level 1 spell so badly? It would be even simpler than all you're doing here if that's the real goal you have.

If it's not just about the lesser restoration spell, but getting consumables of spells cheaper then you've failed. First off, as above, you've already made many scrolls cheaper with this house rule than they can exist RAW. Secondly, it doesn't address say a scroll of the Druid Poison spell compared to a scroll of the higher level Cleric Poison spell.

Beyond which should a Charm Domain cleric wish a scroll of charm monster they now can purchase a cheaper scroll under this house rule. As normally they would have to get a divine scroll of it as a 5th level spell rather than now a 'modified' arcane scroll of it as a 4th level spell.

House rules are bad in general. They propagate and generally cause more problems than they solve. This one doesn't solve any general problem, but rather shifts it around somewhat randomly.

-James

[MisterSlanky]

james maissen wrote:

So you are *lowering* the prices of certain scrolls to caster levels that RAW they cannot exist? For example a 150gp arcane scroll of silence rather than a 200gp arcane scroll of silence, etc.

And this is to make things simpler? Really?

Oh gods, not this whole thing again.

James, in case you missed it, Josh is out of contact completely for two weeks. You might as well hold off on the rants about scroll costs again until he's back.

The ruling is not that hard to understand; trying to make it seem far more complicated than it really is in an attempt to bring people over to your side of the argument is bordering on backfiring at this point.

[james maissen]

MisterSlanky wrote:

Oh gods, not this whole thing again.

James, in case you missed it, Josh is out of contact completely for two weeks. You might as well hold off on the rants about scroll costs again until he's back.

The ruling is not that hard to understand; trying to make it seem far more complicated than it really is in an attempt to bring people over to your side of the argument is bordering on backfiring at this point.

I did miss that Josh is out of town for two weeks, but the questions still stand.

I'm sorry if this is annoying you by eating up bandwidth. But it's not a question of whining for this or that, but rather a mistake that shouldn't be made.

I admit I'm overzealous about this, but I see it as one of the things that greatly hurt LG over the years and I don't want to see Pathfinder not do better in this fashion.

LG accumulated a ton of 'easy' to understand rules. Their campaign source book became a book (around 80-90 pages if I'm recalling correctly). But the accumulation made starting LG in the later years a staggering investment of time. Time learning things that, in all honesty, didn't need to be there in the first place. Things that the reason for their existence in the first place was long since forgotten.

It was one thing for those of us that started playing LG at the start, but even then it got to the point where you had a branch of 'rules lawyer' simply for campaign rules! This is a danger to happen with Pathfinder Society.

So I'll ask you:

What does this rule actually do? And why have it?

If it doesn't accomplish its goal it shouldn't exist. Rules should be minimal and when included, necessary.

So what does it do: it kinda randomly alters the cost of scrolls and other consumables. Some go up, others go down.

It even differs from the core rules in this fashion, so it's not just a question of what's available for purchase.

It's one thing to say that divine scrolls of level 1 lesser restoration are not available for purchase (kinda silly but c'est la vie maybe all Paladins in Pathfinder are illiterate). If that's the point then just say that and be done with it. I'm not sure why it's such a big deal, but so be it... everyone has their own pet peeve. Perhaps lesser restoration being a level 1 paladin spell is Josh's pet peeve.

Mine is making house rules for no purpose.

According to Josh it was the case that evidently some people were confused that Paladins, Bards, Rangers and other spell casting classes could make scrolls, potions and wands. And that some spells on one caster's spell list could be a different spell level on another caster's spell list; further that the minimum caster levels for them might be different.

This is a core rules issue that's been the case for 10 years and 3 editions since the inception of 3rd edition.

So Josh wanted to make things 'simpler' by making this house rule. But things are never 'simple' and to do this he's now saying that you can buy things like 3rd Caster level arcane scrolls of silence.. things that don't exist in core rules because no one can make them. Bards are the arcane caster that can make arcane scrolls of silence, but they don't get 2nd level spells until 4th caster level.

Now someone who learned the core rules will be making the mistake that prompted Josh to make this rule in the first place. They will pay more for some scrolls than they should.

Say my PC wishes to purchase a divine scroll of poison, do I pay 700gp for it or 525gp? The same people that would have had their PC pay 150gp for a scroll of lesser restoration rather than 25gp (or 50gp if they didn't learn how Pathfinder changed Paladin caster levels) will be paying 700gp rather than 525gp. This is because Poison is a 3rd level Druid spell but also a 4th level Cleric spell. Both are legal scrolls for purchase under Josh's house rule as well as per the core rules.

So it doesn't even fully address what it was fixing in the first place.

If you're going to make a house rule then you really need to ask yourself a few questions:

1. What is the problem?
2. How can this be solved in the most minimal fashion?
3. Is the cure worse than the original problem?

If the problem was just that some people didn't know the prices of consumables based upon certain spells, then why not just make a list of those spells?

The people that read the list will know how much to pay, and those that don't that know the core rules will as well.

Meanwhile here only the people that read these lines in the society rules will get it right.

The first doesn't change the core rules, while the second does.

This is all assuming that the problem is that people are unaware of the cheapest prices for consumables of certain spells.

There is a solution that is less invasive than this rule, and the current rule here is worse than the original problem.

-James

[yoda8myhead]

The rule is what it is. One person can change it and he is very aware of your concerns. He's also not here for two weeks and won't be able to respond (though I think I know how he would do so), so let's not drag out the dead horse in the meantime. We all get what you're saying, James, but until a new version of the GtPFSOP comes out (which wouldn't be for at least two weeks in any case), the rule as written is how we play.

[Russ Taylor]

The lesser restoration problem is fairly easy to explain: there are not nearly as many paladins running around scribing scrolls as there are clerics. This pretty much applies to druids and bards as well, since clerics and wizards make up the majority of non-adventuring spell-scribing NPCs. So when you buy a scroll of lesser restoration, you're not going to be able to find an NPC paladin selling them, or if you do, they'll be sold out long before you get there.

For spells that are *only* druid or paladin or the like, there's not as much of a demand for them, which is why you can buy them at all :)

[james maissen]

Russ Taylor wrote:

The lesser restoration problem is fairly easy to explain: there are not nearly as many paladins running around scribing scrolls as there are clerics.

Now explain who's making the 3rd caster level arcane scrolls of silence, cure moderate wounds and the like cause I'd like to know.

As far as core rules go the 25gp scroll of lesser restoration is more common than the 150gp scroll. Availability is a function of price, backwards as it may seem. Perhaps the few paladins with scribe scroll are doing their pious duty and making it available, while the clerics with scribe scroll leave it to those that can do it more economically than they.

Bottom line is that you're changing core rules. And the prior poster is right, Josh makes the rules. And he can say we're not playing by the core rules here if he wants. I just think it's a bad move, especially when it doesn't solve anything.

He can say that lesser restoration is a 2nd level paladin spell rather than a 1st level one. And honestly if that one spell is the issue then that is the least invasive change to accomplish it. Personally I don't see the problem with that spell, or with bards spending more for scrolls of silence, cure moderate wounds and the like.

I do think it's a bad road to go down for an organized campaign, don't you?

-James

[aslak]

james maissen wrote:

I do think it's a bad road to go down for an organized campaign, don't you?

I honestly don't have a problem with this particular rule or the road that Joshua generally has chosen for PFSOP, but that's just my two cents.

[Atrius]

Couldn't we just simplify the whole thing and say that when there are several different cost for the same scroll, such as when they are different caster levels, you always pay the lowest cost? Or the highest?

Because isn't the reason for the rule to make sure everyone is doing it the same?

I honestly never knew that scamming the scroll buying system was this big a deal.

[Piety Godfury]

Atrius wrote:

Couldn't we just simplify the whole thing and say that when there are several different cost for the same scroll, such as when they are different caster levels, you always pay the lowest cost? Or the highest?

Because isn't the reason for the rule to make sure everyone is doing it the same?

I honestly never knew that scamming the scroll buying system was this big a deal.

It's a way to 'work' the monetary system. It (for example) is cheaper to buy a scroll of Hideous Laughter that a Bard has crafted, than it is to buy one made by a Wizard/Sorcerer, as; Hideous Laughter is 1st level for the bard and 2nd level for Wizard/Sorcerer.

This caused Josh to rule that only Wizards, Clerics and Druids create purchasable scrolls.

This causes problems with some classes (for example: Witch) getting scrolls, in my case "Restoration, Lesser." Which in above scenario could be only crafted by the Devine classes and Witches are Arcane.

I'm fine with the ruling, I just wanted to know how do I teach my familiar with a scroll of "Restoration, Lesser" to my familiar under the ruling.

[Austin Morgan]

Piety Godfury wrote:

This caused Josh to rule that only Wizards, Clerics and Druids create purchasable scrolls.

First, it's Wizards, Sorcerers, and Clerics.

Second, its IF it is creatable by a Wizard, Sorcerer, or Cleric, then it has to be purchased from one of those. Any spells that aren't on those lists can be made normally by the normal classes.

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Austin Morgan wrote:

Piety Godfury wrote:

This caused Josh to rule that only Wizards, Clerics and Druids create purchasable scrolls.

First, it's Wizards, Sorcerers, and Clerics.

Second, its IF it is creatable by a Wizard, Sorcerer, or Cleric, then it has to be purchased from one of those. Any spells that aren't on those lists can be made normally by the normal classes.

Nope, it is wizards, clerics and druids. Just read back up the thread to Joshua's post for the correct info.

[Austin Morgan]

Wha...? Oh damn, my rules-fu needs some adjustment.

Thanks for the catch, and sorry up there for my incorrect correction :P

[james maissen]

Piety Godfury wrote:

It's a way to 'work' the monetary system.

It's not 'working' the system, or cheating the game.. rather it's knowing the rules.

The best response to ignorance is education.

Adding house rules only raises the bar for entry to new players. It's a bad thing even when the house rules aren't bad in and of themselves.

Organized campaigns have too much of an entry bar as it is. Adding frivolous house rules that don't even fully address what they were meant to 'solve' is untenable.

-James

[yoda8myhead]

james maissen wrote:

Piety Godfury wrote:

It's a way to 'work' the monetary system.

It's not 'working' the system, or cheating the game.. rather it's knowing the rules.

The best response to ignorance is education.

Adding house rules only raises the bar for entry to new players. It's a bad thing even when the house rules aren't bad in and of themselves.

Organized campaigns have too much of an entry bar as it is. Adding frivolous house rules that don't even fully address what they were meant to 'solve' is untenable.

I've introduced dozens of people to Pathfinder through PFS and not once have they found this element confusing. A new player generally has enough trouble grasping their class features, quirks of the combat system, and what skills do what; everyone I've been handholding through their first few games seems grateful when I provide them a simple explanation for how much an item costs. With the current system, a new (or experienced) player who asks "How much does a scroll of XXX cost?" doesn't prompt a time-draining explanation during a limited-length convention slot. They get a single answer and can either buy the scroll or not.

[james maissen]

yoda8myhead wrote:

I've introduced dozens of people to Pathfinder through PFS and not once have they found this element confusing. A new player generally has enough trouble grasping their class features, quirks of the combat system, and what skills do what; everyone I've been handholding through their first few games seems grateful when I provide them a simple explanation for how much an item costs. With the current system, a new (or experienced) player who asks "How much does a scroll of XXX cost?" doesn't prompt a time-draining explanation during a limited-length convention slot. They get a single answer and can either buy the scroll or not.

I'm not sure what was so time-draining, and/or how it's no longer time-draining.

But here's a few questions then, so perhaps you could demonstrate the difference for me?

How much is it for my 4th level ranger to buy a divine scroll of resist energy, and what do I need to do to use it?

How much is a wand of gentle repose?

How much is a wand/divine scroll of poison?

I want to buy some arcane scrolls for my Bard. How much is an arcane scroll of silence? Speak with animals? What caster levels are they?

But you're missing my point. Did you play LG when it was around? Or any other organized campaign?

-James

[yoda8myhead]

james maissen wrote:

Did you play LG when it was around? Or any other organized campaign?

Nope. I also didn't see the original Star Wars when it came out in theaters in 1977. Just cause someone did doesn't mean they have more authority to judge the sequels as I do. Not that PFS is a sequel of former living campaigns. I understand where you're coming from about not wanting to replicate what you consider mistakes in previous systems, but I don't get what purpose you think driving this one nitpick down everyone's throats over and over again is going to get you. Josh is aware of your concerns and has responded to them numerous times. To date, his response has not been to your liking, so you just keep going about it. He's out of town for the next two weeks, so more discussion isn't going to accomplish anything. Can we just let the subject die? Please?

[MisterSlanky]

yoda8myhead wrote:

james maissen wrote:

Did you play LG when it was around? Or any other organized campaign?

Nope. I also didn't see the original Star Wars when it came out in theaters in 1977. Just cause someone did doesn't mean they have more authority to judge the sequels as I do. Not that PFS is a sequel of former living campaigns. I understand where you're coming from about not wanting to replicate what you consider mistakes in previous systems, but I don't get what purpose you think driving this one nitpick down everyone's throats over and over again is going to get you. Josh is aware of your concerns and has responded to them numerous times. To date, his response has not been to your liking, so you just keep going about it. He's out of town for the next two weeks, so more discussion isn't going to accomplish anything. Can we just let the subject die? Please?

+1

[Doug Doug]

yoda8myhead wrote:

Can we just let the subject die? Please?

+1

[Chris Kenney]

Doug Doug wrote:

yoda8myhead wrote:

Can we just let the subject die? Please?

+1

+1, As someone who's objected to some of Josh's other decisions on these very boards.

[james maissen]

yoda8myhead wrote:

Can we just let the subject die? Please?

I didn't start the thread, but I will comment upon it when it comes up.

You did mention that you found this rule useful to you in that it saved some time or something. I was curious about that, but you don't need to tell me about it if it's not important to you.

People have said that this is somehow a good rule, and I don't see how that's possibly true.

Anyway, until someone says more on it I won't.

-James

[aslak]

james maissen wrote:

How much is it for my 4th level ranger to buy a divine scroll of resist energy, and what do I need to do to use it?

How much is a wand of gentle repose?

How much is a wand/divine scroll of poison?

I want to buy some arcane scrolls for my Bard. How much is an arcane scroll of silence? Speak with animals? What caster levels are they?

But you're missing my point. Did you play LG when it was around? Or any other organized campaign?

-James

Resist energy = 150 gp as if made by a cleric (edit: you need to read it, it costs the same as if made by a cleric, and if you can cast the spell, then you can read the scroll CL 3)

Wand of Gentle repose = 4500 gp as if made by a cleric (the arcane/divine thing is effectually handwaived when it comes to purchases)

Poison (scroll) = 375 gp as if made by a druid
Poison (wand) = 11,250 as if made by a druid

Silence = 150 gp as if made by a cleric and caster level 3 as if made by a cleric (edit: although you might be allowed to buy a scroll of a higher caster level if you pay the cost cl x 2 x 25) and you have to be able to cast the spell (as a bard).

Speak with animals = 25 gp as if made by a druid and caster level 1 as if made by a druid (although you might be allowed to buy a scroll of a higher caster level if you pay the cost cl x 2 x 25) and you have to be able to cast the spell (as a bard).

Hope it helps

[Githzilla]

yoda8myhead wrote:

Can we just let the subject die? Please?

Ugh, it never ends.

[james maissen]

aslak wrote:

Resist energy = 150 gp as if made by a cleric (edit: you need to read it, it costs the same as if made by a cleric, and if you can cast the spell, then you can read the scroll CL 3)

Wand of Gentle repose = 4500 gp as if made by a cleric (the arcane/divine thing is effectually handwaived when it comes to purchases)

Poison (scroll) = 375 gp as if made by a druid
Poison (wand) = 11,250 as if made by a druid

Silence = 150 gp as if made by a cleric and caster level 3 as if made by a cleric (edit: although you might be allowed to buy a scroll of a higher caster level if you pay the cost cl x 2 x 25) and you have to be able to cast the spell (as a bard).

Speak with animals = 25 gp as if made by a druid and caster level 1 as if made by a druid (although you might be allowed to buy a scroll of a higher caster level if you pay the cost cl x 2 x 25) and you have to be able to cast the spell (as a bard).

Hope it helps

1st. He cannot read it automatically as his caster level is 1 and not 3. Although he can cast the spell itself he cannot buy a scroll that he can read without making a check. I'm not sure if he also has to have a higher wisdom score or not (12 vs 11) and thus might not be able to read it at all.

2nd. The wand could also be 11,250gp instead as if made by a wizard. If my PC is a wizard and don't realize it's also a cleric spell I could pay a lot more for it than if I did. It also brings up the question can a wizard buy an arcane scroll of gentle repose for 150gp or must they pay 375gp?

3rd. Scroll/wand could also be as if made by a cleric and thus based upon a 4th level spell rather than 3rd. Here it's a lot easier to not notice that druids happen to get it earlier than clerics.

4th. You can buy scrolls of higher caster level. The funny thing here is that by core rules there are no arcane scrolls of silence of CL 3 as the minimum CL for 2nd level bard spells is 4. So it would be easy to think that you would have to pay 200gp for it rather than 150gp.

5th. What do you mean you have to be able to cast the spell as a bard? It's on their list. It's just that it's a 3rd level spell for them... so do they need a 13CHA to read it or an 11?

Anyway, each of those things has wrinkles. Wrinkles that this rule caused even though the rule was made to smooth things out.

If its a question of confusion on cost you could make a list of all the spells with multiple levels based upon spell list and avoid all that confusion for those who don't realize. Then a note of warning that such things exist. Without changing core rules.

So I'll back off again now, take care,

-James