Can a Summoned Creature get pregnant?

[David knott 242]

The 4th sentence begins with "The offspring of such unions", which is clearly a reference back to the 3rd sentence. There are no such cross-references involving the 1st or 2nd sentence.

[Daw]

I have to point out that the source page in the Inner Sea Gods is rather overly densely packed. Separating the sentences would not allow everything to fit on the page.

Additionally, I would be more likely to rule that a Summoned Monster, Fiendish Hyeana (native to the lower planes) is more of an Outsider than an Animal, and doesn't count on the material plane, unless you go to its home to meet the parents.

[Tacticslion]

David knott 242 wrote:

The 4th sentence begins with "The offspring of such unions", which is clearly a reference back to the 3rd sentence. There are no such cross-references involving the 1st or 2nd sentence.

So, to be clear, you're suggesting that linguistic context cues are valid, except when they're not?

Quote:

If Lamashtu is the wearer’s patron, the mask counts as an unholy symbol and a hole for a third eye appears in its forehead. The wearer can use summon monster II once per day to summon a fiendish hyena, which obeys the wearer as if they shared a common language. The wearer may interbreed with animals within one size category of the wearer’s size. The offspring of such unions are members of the mother’s race with the fiendish simple template and bear monstrous aesthetic features of the father’s race.

"Hey, you can acquire an animal. Also, you can interbreed with an animal. When you do, <this> happens."

The vast majority of people would likely understand that all three sentences are related to each other.

Daw wrote:

I have to point out that the source page in the Inner Sea Gods is rather overly densely packed. Separating the sentences would not allow everything to fit on the page.

This is a fair point to argue intent, from. "Well, if it doesn't fit if I do it any other way..." certainly can be a reason to format it that way.

That said, again, even separated by paragraphs, it's a very clear line from "you can summon an animal" and "you can mate with an animal" - the item doesn't (and honestly shouldn't, even if intended) say, "Look, the animal is here for you to have sex with." (for a whole host of reasons). This is especially true given that, unlike standard for such creatures, it actively understands your words, as if the two of you shared a language... even though it's got an INT of 2.

Daw wrote:

Additionally, I would be more likely to rule that a Summoned Monster, Fiendish Hyeana (native to the lower planes) is more of an Outsider than an Animal, and doesn't count on the material plane, unless you go to its home to meet the parents.

You're (of course) free to make that ruling, but you'd be changing PF's game rules to do so.

Fiendish template no longer changes the type (unlike in 3.5 where it did).

Again, nothing wrong with that ruling, but [extraplanar] =/= outsider.

EDIT: twice, in order to clarify things/change some phrasing (as it looked harsher than intended (also harsher than perceived/felt in the writing) after posting. Then in order to make sure I added this EDIT note, 'cause, in general, I like clarity.

[David knott 242]

Since the CL of the Demon Mother's Mask is level 3, you have 18 seconds to interbreed with that summoned hyena. Good luck!

[Tacticslion]

David knott 242 wrote:

Since the CL of the Demon Mother's Mask is level 3, you have 18 seconds to interbreed with that summoned hyena. Good luck!

Another solid argument!

Let's see... so... 18 seconds... a typical orc might just be able to make it work...

>.>

My word this conversation is squicky.

Dang it, Paizo! Stop being so good at making bad things so squicky!

XD

[Tacticslion]

Nope. Not gonna do it.

I was going to look at how long it takes a hyena to do its thing and be done, but... nope.

I'm already probably in a really weird and terrifying watch list for those two "Minute Earth" videos all about hyenas, but... nope, not going for more research. Not interested...

>.<

(But someone else can feel free!)

[ronkay]

thats just nasty

[Tacticslion]

Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup.

[Daw]

^-^
So, could you pull it off with the QuickDraw feat and a 10x move rate bonus for the spermatozoa? Not sure how you would reduce the gestation duration to Instant.

[Tacticslion]

DAGGUMMIT DAW

XI

*shakes fist all Wrath of Khan*

EDIT: for more! ;D

[Tacticslion]

As a horrible, horrible aside: does anyone know if you can use rods of extend* with magic items?

EDIT: or something similar.

Also, there's a timeless demiplane (and this is one instance where I really, really do mean "timeless demiplane" and not "timeless demiplane with time stop active").

[Sarzael]

There's an Arcanist exploit, Spell Tinkerer, that can extend the duration of magical effects by 50%. I think it should work on that produced by magical items, too. Whether that helps or not is arguable, though!

[My Life Is In Ruins]

Sarzael wrote:

This question occurred to me upon hitting level 11 with my Arcanist Occultist...

Obviously, most Summoned Creatures would vanish far too soon, but there are exceptions: Namely a level 20 Occultist Arcanist's capstone or an Antipaladin's Fiendish Boon. Both allow Summoned Creatures to last potentially permanently, and you have plenty of creatures known to mingle with mortals, such as the Succubus.
What do you think would result from this?

headaches

drama
plot lines

===
lol... it's up to your GM. Many feel summoned creatures aren't quite real or normal creatures as they tend to poof out ... hmmm... called or gated creatures are quite different.

[Cuthel]

My thoughts on this
If an Anti Paladin used his fiendish boon to get a Erinyes could he get it pregnant himself? He is evil, she hot and under his control and where do you think Tieflings come from?

[Trinam]

I'm just amazed that the OP didn't say 'Asking for a friend' in the opening post.

It just seems like such an 'asking for a friend' sort of question.

[The Raven Black]

IIRC a summoned creature cannot summon more creatures. Based on this I would not allow it to bring new life into the world

A Wish would definitely bypass this rule completely :-)

[Mark Thomas 66]

Birthing isn't quite summoning.....unless you're a special Lamashtu based summoner.

[Claxon]

Tacticslion wrote:

Claxon wrote:

The 4th sentence is clearly related to to 3rd explaining what happens if you do breed with an animal.

Please clarify why this is true, when the other sentences are unrelated to each other.

As the other poster mentioned, context clues reference the previous sentence. The other sentences in no way make reference to the others.

And when you combine that information with knowledge of Paizo's editing practices and that this particular book was burgeoning with stuff, it becomes quite plausible that they didn't make the sentences stand alone so that they had sufficient space for everything they wanted to include.

Even as written I'm really not sure how you make the jump from "these sentences are adjacent" to "this definitely means you intended to have sex with the summoned hyena". If that was the case why wouldn't it specify you can have sex with that summoned hyena only? It's because you're intended to be able to have sex with any animal. And, as you discovered, with an duration of only 18 seconds the sperm would never make it anywhere to impregnate anything.

[Tacticslion]

Claxon wrote:

If that was the case why wouldn't it specify you can have sex with that summoned hyena only?

Because it's not "that summoned hyena only" - the language is more inclusive, but not exclusive. Hence.

[Claxon]

Which to me means there is no implicit implication of "you're supposed to be able to procreate with this summoned hyena".

[Tacticslion]

That is one correct way of reading it, but it is not "the correct" way of reading it, as noted before.

[Claxon]

I mean, I'll admit that you could interpret it differently and I can understand how you could arrive at that conclusion, but I wouldn't ever agree that it's correct. Of course, I'm also not going to go chase someone else's table down if they run it differently. The rules are largely silent on this topic, for obvious reasons. The GM can do whatever they see fit.

Also, as noted before, the summon lasts 18 seconds, which isn't enough time for sperm to reach it's destination and it would disappear before anyone can be impregnated.

[Tacticslion]

Claxon wrote:

I mean, I'll admit that you could interpret it differently and I can understand how you could arrive at that conclusion, but I wouldn't ever agree that it's correct. Of course, I'm also not going to go chase someone else's table down if they run it differently. The rules are largely silent on this topic, for obvious reasons. The GM can do whatever they see fit.

This is pretty much been my point the whole time. :)

Quote:

Also, as noted before, the summon lasts 18 seconds, which isn't enough time for sperm to reach it's destination and it would disappear before anyone can be impregnated.

Agreed. This is a major flaw in it.

I had this whole edit, but Paizo's site's issues are making it hard to edit things today, doesn't matter anymore since your post says the same thing but fewer words, but I'm copy/pasting so it's saved, at least:

That is one correct way of reading it, but it is not "the correct" way of reading it, as noted before.

EDIT: Let me put it this way: I've seen few solid reasons except time and normal incompatibility of breeding have been given - and the OP's scenario time and incompatibility are explicitly not factors.

There is an item that explicitly takes away the "incompatibility" issue.

I mean, don't get me wrong: it's perfectly reasonable to rule things that way. This is fine.

The timing of the mask is a solid issue - and it's one I have zero problems admitting to.

But if a different item said, for example, "This lets you summon a succubus. Also, you can now safely breed with succubi. This is what happens when you do." almost no one would be having this conversation. It would be blindingly obvious what was intended (though space is an issue in the original book, an aside about, "The creator, learned to his chagrin, that the summoned thing doesn't hang around long enough." or something would clarify that it doesn't; then again, a more elaborate "lasts for <x> time, unless used in battle." thing would clarify the other way, but... space is an issue, either way), and it seems that's hard to deny as a clear association/implication.

The mask is a disgusting item.

Mating with summons is a weird idea that will not and should not fit at many tables.

In light of these two things, it's reasonable that many don't like or aren't interested in such things at their table - and that makes a lot of sense.

Again: as for the duration, it's a solid argument. I still have my doubts, because Paizo has published several items where durations that really should be specified are not (a notable wagon that transforms into a tent comes to mind as a recent example I've found), or where they should be different from what they are to do as the author intended.

For the record, I am not claiming that this is the case, but only that I, that is, personally feel that this weakens the argument against to my reading. But I will not and cannot argue against such as a way of "proving" anything, because there isn't a way to do so without somehow divining authorial intent (and there are rules in play that indicated "as <X> spell" means the duration is the same*). Hence, I've not used that as an argument. Instead, I point it out now, as a personal take and a way of - hopefully by way of text - describing the fact that I submit (as I have from the beginning) that personal takes are not wrong, but neither does it make for a convincing argument, especially when it ignores other valid uses of linguistics.

It's an item that "lets you summon a hyena, and, oh by the way, you can mate with a hyena." That... that's a very straightforward connected series of ideas.

I admit the time factor is a failure in this regard. And that's fine. I never claimed that I was right, only that it wasn't clearly only one possible take.

* This leads to other problems, like items being incredibly incorrectly priced, but that's yet another argument that isn't directly related to this one.

[Daw]

Rare point of disagreement with TL.
I think the big issue is just how REAL a summoned creature is. In my way of thinking, anything that leaves nothing behind when it dies or times out does not have sufficient reality/existance to get pregnant, creating a new being real enough to draw down life energy from the positive energy plane.

Now, this said, if the mother role is being filled by a native being, I would have fewer objections, since there is some stability there, and the procreative forces would have more to draw on. There are still problems.

By the title and subtext, it looks like the "plan" is a cheap and easy way of creating a monstrous army. This would mostly require the gestators be the summoned creatures for this to be efficient. So, no.

[Sarzael]

I don't have any plan, and if I did it'd be a GM one and up to me to decide! Besides, if I wanted a cheap army I'd take a level in Witch and seduce some Icy Hags.
Just genuinely curious what everyone thinks of the idea.

Now, the Summoned Creature is real while it is summoned, right? It can do everything a normal Creature of its kind can except use expensive spells or summon. While the Creature may just be something drawn from the Astral Plane or the Akashic Records or wherever, there's nothing to indicate that it isn't a functional being while it does exist. What is your thought process behind them not being "Real enough"?

[Claxon]

I think the difference is that many of us would say that a summoned creature isn't "real" even when it's summoned.