The old grappling question which I'm not sure has an FAQ or not. But the question is this when grappling and you have the grab and constrict ability do you:
1. Deal grab (or constrict) damage only along with your normal attack, OR
2. Deal grab+constrict damage along with your normal attack
So is it just two instances of damage or do you get all three? For the longest time and even now I feel its option 1 that you don't in fact get all three, but is there anything official on this from a designer or JJ or anyone? Because reading it RAW it so horrendously written (no offense) that it is extremely confusing.
What is 'grab damage'?
Giant Crab:
Melee 2 claws +4 (1d4+2 plus grab)
Special Attacks constrict (1d4+2)
As far as I can tell, if you get hit by the claw you take 1d4+2 claw damage. If it succeeds at the grab attempt, you take constrict damage too.
If it is grappling someone at the start of the round, it can roll to maintain the grapple. If it succeeds it does 1d4+2 claw damage again (this is grab damage, maybe?) plus 1d4+2 constrict damage.
Yes if it maintains then it would deal the "Grab" damage which was the claw attack that initiated the grapple along with constrict and then you have a choice to pin/move/damage and you chose to damage that's three instances of damage. Is that how it is? Anything official on this or still a mess?
Once you have grappled someone you have two choices - either grapple normally or just hold them.
If you choose to hold them so you don't count as grappled yourself (taking a -20 to your grapple check) then either a) you do not have constrict in which case you deal no damage, or b) you have constrict in which case you deal normal damage for the limb plus constrict damage.
Without other abilities there is a maximum of 2 instances of damage - limb damage and constrict damage.
If you are just holding them you no longer have the normal grapple options to deal damage/pin or move your target.
Ya, the strange thing is why does it always say you deal grab damage on successive rounds (not the initial one) and if you have constrict you ALSO deal that damage. But that isn't the case, I've read many times on these forums that you don't get both damages (Constrict and Grab) just one or the other. But if you read the Grab ability it certainly sounds like after the initial round You'd deal Grab and Constrict. To summarize the Grab ability essentially says: maintain a grapple, deal grab damage. The constrict ability says deal constrict damage on each round you maintain a grapple including the initial round to start a grapple. So these two abilities are very similar in the sense that on the maintenance round of the grapple they would both do there damage by RAW?
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A creature with constrict deals this additional damage every time it makes a successful grapple check against a foe. This includes the first check to establish the grapple (such as when using the grab universal monster rule).
So constrict damage is 'additional' and happens both on the initial round and subsequent rounds if you maintain a grapple.
If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well.
OK, this bit is a confusing mess of double negatives. If a creature with both grab and constrict maintains the grab, what happens? The "as well" bit suggests they mean "constriction damage as well as grab damage", even if the grab damage isn't directly stated as happening for this situation.
(And after all this you get to damage/pin/move your foe.)
Great answer and very clear Matthew thanks. The way I read the portion in Constrict "A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage)." I believe they are referring to the grapple damage option instead of the move/pin option when they say "...including additional damage". Plausible?
I mean three instances of damage per round far outpaces most anything, it is overpowered.
As far as I can tell, if you're maintaining a grapple and you're not trying to pin/move, a regular human can do damage once per round, a creature with grab can do damage twice per round, and a creature with grab and constrict can do damage three times per round.
Three instances of damage may or may not be overpowered. It depends on how much damage it is. A tiger can attack five times on a pounce.
If it's a Giant Anaconda attacking the party, then the whole party can be attacking the snake while it's trying to do that damage to one PC; it shouldn't last long. Triple 4d6+19 is nasty, but there are worse things you could attack a level 10 party with.
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I believe the sequence of events would be:
Round 1: Creature attacks and initiates a grab attack
Roll to Hit - Success
Roll for attack damage
Roll for grapple - Success
Roll for constrict damage
Round 2: Maintains grab
Roll to Maintain grapple - Success
Roll for attack damage
Roll for constrict damage
What has changed between the first and the subsequent rounds is there is no need to roll to hit so the attack damage is caused by successfully maintaining the grapple not the initial hit.
Round 2: Maintains grab
Roll to Maintain grapple - Success
Roll for attack damage
Roll for constrict damageWhat has changed between the first and the subsequent rounds is there is no need to roll to hit so the attack damage is caused by successfully maintaining the grapple not the initial hit.
But:
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Damage
You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Pin
You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
So that's a third potential source of damage - if all these stack.
I don’t understand how you’re seeing the damage happen three times. From everything I see quoted here, it only looks like two (even in examples where you say it is three).
Damage source one: applies even for creatures that do not have grab or constrict.
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Damage
You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Damage source two: applies for creatures that have grab.
each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold
Damage source three: applies for creatures that have constrict.
A creature with constrict deals this additional damage every time it makes a successful grapple check against a foe.
To summarize the Grab ability essentially says: maintain a grapple, deal grab damage. The constrict ability says deal constrict damage on each round you maintain a grapple including the initial round to start a grapple. So these two abilities are very similar in the sense that on the maintenance round of the grapple they would both do there damage by RAW?You can't use the Free Action Grapple granted by Grab to Maintain a Grapple, only to Initiate one.
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.Your character is a Humanoid Tetori, right? If you have 2 Weapon Fighting (Tetori don't get Flurry of Blows), Grab, Constrict, Greater Grapple, and Rapid Grappler, you could
Make an Unarmed Strike, inflicting Damage as per usual,
Grapple as a Free Action, damaging with Constrict,
Grapple again as a Move Action, taking the Damage Action and damaging again with Constrict,
then Grapple again as a Swift Action, taking the Damage Action and damaging with Constrict for a total of 6 "Damages" in 1 round.Or you could
Make an Unarmed Strike, inflicting Damage as per usual,
Grapple as a Free Action, damaging with Constrict,
Release the Grapple as a Free Action,
Make an off-hand Unarmed Strike, inflicting Damage as per usual,
Grapple as a Free Action, damaging with Constrict.The first option might not be as good as it sounds since it depends on cascading hits, one building off the other. If the first attack misses, you don't get your Grapple, your Constrict, or your Move-Action or Swift-Action Grapple & Constrict.
I was thinking the 2nd option would be awesome if you had a lot of attacks, like if you Wildshaped into a Giant Octopus with 8 Tentacles all with Grab and Constrict or if you had a Humanoid Natural Attack build, say a Tengu with Claws, a Bite, a Helm of the...
"Make an Unarmed Strike, inflicting Damage as per usual,
Grapple as a Free Action, damaging with Constrict,Grapple again as a Move Action, taking the Damage Action and damaging again with Constrict,
then Grapple again as a Swift Action, taking the Damage Action and damaging with Constrict for a total of 6 "Damages" in 1 round."
This is exactly what I'm saying occurs yes. You get 2 damages per action or in the case of greater and rapid grapple you'd have 6. But Matthew and others are saying you get 3 per grapple instance resulting in 9 with greater and rapid. And the more i read the FAQ on Grab and Constrict the more I start to agree with Matthew.
ie. assuming the second round of the fight, The tetori would automatically deal his unarmed strike damage (the attack used to start the grapple - Grab) and automatically deal constrict damage and then lastly he would opt to deal damage instead of move/pin. So that is 3 instances of damage being done, I always thought it was how you have it stated above Scott, just two per instance giving 6 total over 3 "grapple rounds" (grab, greater grapple, rapid grapple)
Constrict: When a creature with the constrict universal monster rule (Bestiary, page 298) grapples a foe, when does it deal constrict damage?
A creature with constrict deals this additional damage every time it makes a successful grapple check against a foe. This includes the first check to establish the grapple (such as when using the grab universal monster rule).
What would happen if a Tetori used this Grab ability, would he benefit from the "Grab" during the second round? Even though the Grab to activate it via Kia points only lasts for 1 round (that initial round), would he have to continue spending ki points on each round to benefit from the Grab damage each round or could he continue dealing Grab damage just from activating a single (or two if creature is larger) ki points
This is exactly what I'm saying occurs yes.Okay, cool.
Ya, the only difference between our view and Matthew's and many others is that on the initial attack (and successive rounds) the Grab not only grapples the opponent but also deals damage.
Hell, TBH I hope Matthew is right and the Grab does deal damage since I do play grappling characters.
I think I've figured it out. "The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to HOLD the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful HOLD does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the HOLD. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well" So they are talking about the HOLD, your extra damage Matthew for the Grab is only if it took that HOLD option at -20.
Sounds playable.
Weird way to write the rules, though. Does anyone ever even use the 'Hold' option? Minus twenty is a pretty big penalty.
I think people are over complicating it. Grab is a specific form of grapple. Amongst other differences; a grappler can choose to deal damage in a number of ways, whereas the grabber always causes damage with the weapon used to initiate the grab. I don't think the author's intention, and therefore the RAI was to allow a grabbing creature to deal damage twice through it's weapon in addition to the crushing force of the constriction. As a mental picture the crab's serrated claw does damage as it hold its victim (the natural attack) and the pressure of the claw closing causes constriction damage.
What is perhaps more debateable is whether the grabber can move and pin as well as or instead of causing damage.
Having watched several nature documentaries over the years, I would be inclined to suggest that in real life the creatures that grab their prey change their grip whilst holding their struggling prey to get a better grip and to stop them struggling (i.e. pin their opponent). Some creatures also move whilst wrestling with their prey, e.g. crabs and scorpions, whilst others do not, notably snakes.
Based on real life observations, I think the RAI for grab allows for damage from the attack every round, based on the word automatic in the description and the above mental picture. I would also allow the creature to move or pin its opponent as well but I would not allow grapple damage, grab damage and constrict damage. Actually, wait, stop, I've changed my mind. The grabber could use a different attack as part of the grapple instead of move or pin. In the case of the crab that could be its other claw, or an unarmed attack from it's legs or banging the victim into its carapace. A scorpion could sting and a snake could bite.
Revising my previous Round 2 description
Round 2: Maintains grab
Roll to Maintain grapple - Success
Roll for grab attack damage
Choose grapple action - damage
Roll for grapple damage (cannot be with the grab attack weapon)
Roll for constrict damage
Sounds playable.
Weird way to write the rules, though. Does anyone ever even use the 'Hold' option? Minus twenty is a pretty big penalty.
Yep I agree the language chosen by the devs is atrocious. Its not a popular option (the -20) but it does exist.
This sounds like another FAQ Mr. Breakbone can add to his list.
I've used the -20 with Wyverns and Flyby Attacks. One just plucked the poor halfling off the ground and carried him into the sky.
I'm curious to know how this is ruled in PFS, do you get all three instances of damage or just two?
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If the creature is already grappling the foe, he maintains the grapple to do the constrict damage. Where does it indicate that the weapon damage is added to it? I believe that to do weapon damage, one would have to hit with the weapon, either be breaking the grapple and attacking, or in the initial hit with the grab.
The exception to this is Armor Spikes, which does damage in the same way as Constrict.
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
"Hold" may be the key word there. In the previous sentences before the bolded portion they speak directly about the "Hold".
"Hold" may be the key word there. In the previous sentences before the bolded portion they speak directly about the "Hold".
Interesting, read that way then:
Round 1: Creature attacks and initiates a grab attackRoll to Hit - Success
Roll for attack damage
Player chooses whether to (A)grapple normally or to (B)Hold at -20 to CMB
Roll for grapple or Hold - Success
Roll for constrict damage, if any
Round 2(A): Normal Grappling
Roll to Maintain grapple
Choose whether to move/damage/pin - Choose damage
Roll for attack damage
Roll for constrict damage, if any
Round 2(B): Hold
Roll to Maintain Grapple at -20
Roll for attack damage
Roll for constrict damage, if any
Presumably then a creature that is holding can move normally if it can carry it's victim but cannot pin its victim
I'm curious to know how this is ruled in PFS
Expect Table Variance.