How well do pathfinder's full casters (arcanist, cleric, druid, oracle, psychic, sorcerer, witch, and wizard) function under starfinder given the changes in rules and the official rules for conversion? Are the at all advisable or even at least workable?
I know some of them have distinct parallels in Starfinder, and therefore can be easily emulated, but others don't so what paths do we have to evoke their flavors?
I'm not entirely sure about your question. Are you asking how to balance a 9-level caster that you homebrew/import into SF? Or are you asking if there are choices you can take with a Technomancer or Mystic to make them more like a Witch?
For the latter, I'd think you could flavor a Mystic as a Witch, maybe even a Psychic. And you could obviously flavor one as a Cleric, Oracle, or Druid.
For the former, you could make it happen with some homebrew.
When it comes to balancing 9-level casters for SF, note that Sorcerers don't pull strongly ahead of Technomancers at casting until Level 6, when they get 3rd level spells. So for a low-level campaign, I think a 9-level caster could probably be balanced against SF casters without too big a stretch. At high levels though, it would be tough.
Bringing in the full list of PF spells would be a bit much though. I'd consider either casting off the existing SF lists or allowing PF core-only spells, and maybe eliminate a few of the most powerful low-level spells like Color Spray and Sleep (and apply the already-existing nerf to Haste).
The Technomancer is closer in power to the Sorcerer than the Mystic is to the Oracle though. The Oracle is a much better spellcaster than the Mystic, gets better class abilities, and has the same BAB.
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I'd recommend against full casters. Even at low levels, the spontaneous casters are tossing out a lot more spells without any real drawbacks (since the BAB difference is pretty small at that point, Mystic/Technomancer don't have a lot of front-loaded features, and cantrips/knacks substitute for weapons until third level). Prepared casters get comparable spells to the 6/9 casters with more flexibility, and again, no real drawbacks.
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I will eventually be expirimenting with this on an NPC in my game (the party will be working with Jatambe later on), but I'm going in with the assumption that it'll be boners broken. If it turns out not to be too impactful ,though, I might jave the old mage teach a new generation of full casters after he resurfaces
I'd recommend against full casters. Even at low levels, the spontaneous casters are tossing out a lot more spells without any real drawbacks (since the BAB difference is pretty small at that point, Mystic/Technomancer don't have a lot of front-loaded features, and cantrips/knacks substitute for weapons until third level). Prepared casters get comparable spells to the 6/9 casters with more flexibility, and again, no real drawbacks.
On the Technomancer/Sorcerer comparison:
At level 1, counting Spell Cache, the TM and Sorcerer have the same number of slots and spells known. TM's casting stat is INT, which is generally better than Sorcerer's CHA. Leaving Sorcerer skills at 2+INT is debatable but certainly an option. Sorcerer is not proficient in armor. Do you allow them to cast in armor? I'd probably say yes, but I probably wouldn't give them armor proficiency for free. You have the option of denying them armor usage though, requiring them to use Mirror Image to protect themselves. I'd also give Sorcerer 5 Stamina/HP vs. TM's 6.
At level 5, including Spell Cache and assuming 20 INT, the TM's spell slots are 6/4 compared to the Sorcerer's 8/4. TM has 6/4/3 spells known compared to Sorcerer's 6/4/2. At that point, Sorcerer has picked up 2 bloodline abilities. TM has picked up a Spell Hack (which is probably better than most bloodline powers, but perhaps not as good as the very best), Spell Focus, and a +1 skill boost.
So for level 1-5, I think the balance between the two is pretty close. Once the Sorcerer pulls ahead of TM in spell level though, it starts to pull strongly ahead of TM as a caster. Still, if the campaign only goes to 10 or 11, the Sorcerer is never more than 1 spell level ahead of the TM, and the TM does have a lot of other features to try to balance that out. Sorcerer is probably still more powerful, but not overwhelmingly so.
Using the conversion guidelines in the CRB sorcerers wouldn't have light armor innately but they would have small arms and basic melee and get upgraded to 4+int skills. Makes light armor a mandatory feat at level 1 but I don't think that's really going to slow them down much.
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No need to homebrew one.They are in the 3PP book Starfarers Companion by Rogue Genius Games. You can bet they are balanced as they were updated Owen's 3PP team.
I think you could maintain some semblance of balance if you banned full casters from getting any weapon proficiency or specialization.
Full casters in Pathfinder, once you're beyond the lowest levels, are expected to either cast or delay every round of combat. If you give a full caster access to scaling ranged weaponry, they can also contribute meaningful damage at no resource cost.
If they Mystic and Technomancer can pick up longarm proficiency and specialization but the sorc and arcanist cannot, then at least the starfinder casters can contribute solid damage every round without spending a spell slot to do so.
No need to homebrew one.They are in the 3PP book Starfarers Companion by Rogue Genius Games. You can bet they are balanced as they were updated Owen's 3PP team.
According to his team for that book: A cleric is balanced with 9th level spells, full BaB, and Heavy armor proficiency.
And the book uses a lot of bonus types, such as sacred, that are no longer valid under Starfinder and need converted.
No need to homebrew one.They are in the 3PP book Starfarers Companion by Rogue Genius Games. You can bet they are balanced as they were updated Owen's 3PP team.According to his team for that book: A cleric is balanced with 9th level spells, full BaB, and Heavy armor proficiency.
And the book uses a lot of bonus types, such as sacred, that are no longer valid under Starfinder and need converted.
I recant what I have said: Bought it, checked it rather than relying on hearsay and what a friend showed me, and though it does make use of multiple types that are no longer valid.. It is clean.
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I recant what I have said: Bought it, checked it rather than relying on hearsay and what a friend showed me, and though it does make use of multiple types that are no longer valid.. It is clean.
Thanks for the reconsideration, Xuldarinar. The rumor you heard is probably based on a typo in the original release of the book. Glad you liked what you saw when you saw it for yourself.
To the original poster, if you aren't going to use a full-scale conversion, you should--at a minimum--switch the full casters over to mystic and technomancer spells and re-level some of the spells for them. The spell philosophy in Starfinder is very different. Also, I would expect unconverted full casters to be underwhelmed by their lack of class features when compared to Starfinder classes.
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As the other co-author of the Starfarer's Companion, I agree with Matt.
The mystic and technomancer don't really capture the flavor of the cleric and wizard well, so I understand your goal to try and convert Pathfinder classes. The mystic is more of a "Star Shaman / Star Psychic" then a cleric-in-space, and the technomancer plays more like a magus then a sorcerer or wizard. (It's spell list lacks a lot of the versatility of the sorcerer/wizard spell; some of that is necessary for the health of the game, but the lack of options hurts.)
When we designed our 9th-level spellcasters, one of our big secrets was to never allow the starfarer cleric / starfarer wizard to get access to powerhouse spells before the mystic or technomancer. For example, the technomancer gets teleport as a 5th level spell, which they get around 13th level. To make sure our wizard was balanced, we adjusted teleport so the wizard got it around 13th level, rounded up to the next highest level if applicable. So in teleport's case, the wizard gets it at 14th level as a 7th level spell.
Now, there are some exceptions to this rule, and the wizard does get spells that the mystic and technomancer doesn't. (Specifically, 3rd-, 6th-, and 9th-level spells tend to be "in-betweeners." For instance, the wizard's 4th level spells tends to be weaker than a technomancer's 3rd level spells, but stronger then a technomancer's 2nd-level spells. The exception is 9th-level spells—we largely consider those the cleric / wizard's capstone, and they tend to be a little stronger then mystic / technomancer 6th level spells.
Hope this helps you out without our design philosophies!
Thank you Matt, and thank you Alex. I honestly did not expect to see either of you posting on this, and I truly appreciate the insight.
It does make me wonder the balance implications of if one converts the sorcerer and brings over their unique line of text: "A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. "
Thank you Matt, and thank you Alex. I honestly did not expect to see either of you posting on this, and I truly appreciate the insight.
It does make me wonder the balance implications of if one converts the sorcerer and brings over their unique line of text: "A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. "
I'd actually like to do the sorcerer at some point; I'm not sure if it's going to be in the Advanced Starfarer's Companion or not, but it's definitely a flavor of spellcaster that I personally enjoy.
Likely, we would just say, "The sorcerer draws its spells from the wizard spell list," just like how the oracle in Pathfinder draws its spells from the cleric spell list. It's not a huge problem—just something that Starfinder hasn't done yet. (It IS a new game with only two 1P sourcebooks under its belt, after all!)
But yeah, Matt and I try to make ourselves as available as we can to talk about Starfinder 3PP. It's still VERY new for everyone, and we like to hear from the fans so we know what people like and what to see more of. (Like, for example, Matt ended up choosing to write the starfarer witch because he saw a lot of people bemoaning its hex-based gameplay, while I'm doing a zoomer base class in December because of how popular that's been with the Stranger Things fans.
Tell us what you guys like and we'll do what we can. ;-)
By the way -- that full BAB issue was fixed very early on.
Also -- since medium armor does not exist in Starfinder and even wizards are proficient with light armor, why shouldn't a Starfarer Cleric be proficient with heavy armor?
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But yeah, Matt and I try to make ourselves as available as we can to talk about Starfinder 3PP. It's still VERY new for everyone, and we like to hear from the fans so we know what people like and what to see more of. (Like, for example, Matt ended up choosing to write the starfarer witch because he saw a lot of people bemoaning its hex-based gameplay, while I'm doing a zoomer base class in December because of how popular that's been with the Stranger Things fans.
Tell us what you guys like and we'll do what we can. ;-)
Well, it is much easier to tell what people like by coming down from the mountain. And I will say reading this, you've made someone really excited to see what the zoomer class entails.
I do have a suggestion: When you get around to the Sorcerer class, also include in that book an archetype (I saw what done with the mystic theurge) equivalent to the Dragon Disciple, or even make it an archetype that grants access to a bloodline and just call it the Disciple. Dragon Sorcerers need love but so does everyone else after all.
By the way -- that full BAB issue was fixed very early on.
Also -- since medium armor does not exist in Starfinder and even wizards are proficient with light armor, why shouldn't a Starfarer Cleric be proficient with heavy armor?
According to the conversion guide described in the core rulebook for starfinder: If they are proficient with light armor, they are proficient with light. If they are proficient with heavy, they are proficient with heavy. Medium is ignored.
Not that I disagree with Wizards getting light, and Clerics getting heavy.. it was more of all three notes together, something I am glad was fixed quickly.