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I know anything is technically 'legal' in non PFS, but I'm talking about raw/balanced/etc. A player wants to play a Wyrwood, but likes the flavor of the clockwork template better. +2 dodge to AC, Lightning reflexes for free as a bonus feat, but electric vulnerability. It's a +0 template, so what are the thoughts on players adding those to their race choices to try something new? I wouldn't allow one that actually has a CR adjustment, but this one seems like a clean swap.
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+2 stacking bonus to Ac on an already powerful race - for the small price of vulnerability to a less common elemental damage (to many of which I will also gain a +2 to saves against thanks to lightning reflexes) - and don't forget the spellcasters best friend improved initiative!
Sign me up...
Also note the alternate racial trait that grants +2 natural armour and the +2 dex and you are potentially looking at a very high AC right out of the gate.
I do not think that the clockwork template is reasonable or balanced for PCs in most games, but there is nothing preventing it if you believe it is suitable for your game.
As an aside, are you aware of all of the immunities the construct type gives before you allow Wyrwood PCs, because the construct type is a literal game changer on a PC - it is potentially far more powerful than the race point would suggest and will simply no-sell many traditional encounters - you will need to adjust the game to account for it.
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dragonhunterq is right about making sure you understand the game mechanics impact. Constructs are very powerful at low levels. If you want to get a feel for it, think of the things he's immune or resistant to, then look at the encounters in your adventures and compare how the bad guys can threaten him or make it a challenge. If he can wade through every encounter, it's no fun for the other players. Also, if you beef up encounters to challenge him, the others might be in serious danger. If you allow it, I would rule that he can't wind himself up. Put the keyhole in the middle of his back, so another character has to help him.
Another thing to think about, how common are clockwork creatures in your world. Is he unique or are there a bunch more. Is he the equivalent of Data on Star Trek the Next Generation? I would make sure the player comes up with a background that you approve of... or even one you like and change to fit your campaign. If the template is introduced into your world, you'll need to think of all these things first... IF you decide that a first level character construct is okay.
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Constructs are very powerful at low levels.
Constructs are also very WEAK in low levels. People that cry 'it's so strong' forget that most healing methods don't work on the character and if they do, are either slow or only work on a construct. It's hard to 'wade into every encounter' when your hp might not be healed.
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Which causes another problem for the DM. He has to consider special magic that can heal the construct. He also needs to expect the possibilities of entire adventures the player may want to go on to solve that problem. These things can be fun. Just something a DM has to keep in mind while allowing the special race. Also, from what I understand, he's not going to be easy to hit. That's another way to get around needing healing.
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He has to consider special magic that can heal the construct.
I'd expect the player to bring this to the table. Part of playing the character is knowing you most likely only have yourself to supply that. Either that or collaborate with another character to help, but either way it east into how useful they are at other things so it helps balance things out.
He also needs to expect the possibilities of entire adventures the player may want to go on to solve that problem.
EVERY character goes in expecting the possibilities that their background/race/culture/ect might be fodder for adventure, or at least I hope they do.
Also, from what I understand, he's not going to be easy to hit. That's another way to get around needing healing.
He's going to be up there with heavy armor equivalent. Environmental/swarm/ect damage that ignore AC and Ref s saves are the big damage makers and the vulnerability is just deadly. Myself, I'd NEVER voluntarily take a vulnerability: those bonuses aren't good enough to make up for that.
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Another thing to remember about constructs, they have less HP. Living characters essentially have their Con in virtual HP below zero before they die. Constructs die at zero.
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Another thing to remember about constructs, they have less HP. Living characters essentially have their Con in virtual HP below zero before they die. Constructs die at zero.
Constructs get bonus HP based on their size: for instance, Wyrwood get +10. Depending on starting CON, the Wyrwood may have MORE than a living character...
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Wyrwoods have no Con score. That's what the bonus HP is to make up for. Even if they have a few extra HP at 1st level, that quickly goes away until they're far behind, because that +10 is all they ever get.
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Wyrwoods have no Con score. That's what the bonus HP is to make up for. Even if they have a few extra HP at 1st level, that quickly goes away until they're far behind, because that +10 is all they ever get.
That assumes the player with Con has a 12+ score. They have a 09 or less and the player with con gets left far behind.
Wyrwoods have no Con score. That's what the bonus HP is to make up for. Even if they have a few extra HP at 1st level, that quickly goes away until they're far behind, because that +10 is all they ever get.
This is correct.
However, I think graystone means that if a non-construct PC starts with constitution modifier of a certain threshold or less, you're not giong to have +10 hp.
EDIT: right. Ninja'd. XD
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Wyrwoods have no Con score. That's what the bonus HP is to make up for. Even if they have a few extra HP at 1st level, that quickly goes away until they're far behind, because that +10 is all they ever get.This is correct.
However, I think graystone means that if a non-construct PC starts with constitution modifier of a certain threshold or less, you're not giong to have +10 hp.
EDIT: right. Ninja'd. XD
LOL I don't have to be much of a ninja with the site acting like it is. ;)
Good to see you got what i was saying. It always makes me shudder, but every once in awhile I'll see people with an under 10 con score. For them, no con would be a step up.
Resistance to electricity is an easy thing to get.
And racial bonuses to AC will stack with the template, it's not like it's an either/or...
To be fair I have a bigger issue with Wyrwood. I would not allow anyone to play a wyrwood in a game I GM. Not because it is powerful as such, but because it is swingy. It suffers from some pretty egregious weaknesses (healing and easy to kill) with an incredible array of immunities that just trivialises whole swathes of encounters (for example a significant percentage of undead become as deadly as q-tips wrapped in jelly). It's a balancing act I'm not prepared to mess with.
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Another weakness of Wyrwoods that has to be considered is that when they're dead, they stay dead. Not even True Resurrection will help with that as constructs simply do not have a soul.
That's another reason I wouldn't allow construct PCs. At mid-to-high levels, I think it's generally accepted that PCs have access to Raise Dead or at least Breath of Life and a character who can't make use of that is a serious risk.
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Another weakness of Wyrwoods that has to be considered is that when they're dead, they stay dead. Not even True Resurrection will help with that as constructs simply do not have a soul.
That's another reason I wouldn't allow construct PCs. At mid-to-high levels, I think it's generally accepted that PCs have access to Raise Dead or at least Breath of Life and a character who can't make use of that is a serious risk.
The Memory of Function spell: "When this spell is cast upon a destroyed construct, it is restored to full functionality and full hit points, provided no significant portion of the destroyed construct (such as an entire limb) is missing. Constructs brought back in this fashion regain their memories up to the moment of their destruction".
So it's NOT true that they just stay dead; It's just harder.
It comes from the Paizo-published Advanced Race Guide.
(It's one of the races Paizo put in the back of the book using the RP system. Easily missed.)
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It comes from the Paizo-published Advanced Race Guide.
(It's one of the races Paizo put in the back of the book using the RP system. Easily missed.)
Also in bestiary 4, including PC stats. In addition Inner Sea Races added to it's options. Is being printed in 3 official books enough for it to be 'official' Beorn Nitmo?
Oh! I missed the B4 entry, myself, and I don't have ISR - thanks for the info! :D
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Oh! I missed the B4 entry, myself, and I don't have ISR - thanks for the info! :D
Oh, you want the ISR if you play one. Built in healing SLA 1/day option. ;)
Oooooooh~! NICE
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Don't dismiss the Winding rules, they could really be important!
Winding: The construct must be wound with a special key in order to function. As a general rule, a fully wound clockwork can remain active for 1 day per HD, but shorter or longer durations are possible.
Having your key stolen would be a HUGE fear and an amazing "on the clock" style tension mechanism.
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Don't dismiss the Winding rules, they could really be important!
Winding: The construct must be wound with a special key in order to function. As a general rule, a fully wound clockwork can remain active for 1 day per HD, but shorter or longer durations are possible.Having your key stolen would be a HUGE fear and an amazing "on the clock" style tension mechanism.
'Meh'... That kind of ranks up there is 'you can get your spellbook stolen or your familiar is kidnaped.
it's also not very hard to make new ones. A DC [20+CR] disable device check makes one. This means anyone with a Int of 12+ can take 20 and hand you a new key at 1st...