Undead horde tactics

[tonyz]

What are some good ways to use numbers of weak undead?

Let's say you have a 5th-9th level caster who can animate dead but not create undead and so is limited to (mostly) zombies and skeletons. Furthermore assume that most available corpses will be only a few HD. We're talking the classic skeleton/zombie group here, maybe 20 or 30 HD in total.

Obviously bloody skeletons are preferable for their self-healing abilities. But how does one use them effectively? Tactics, buffing spells, what? CR5-7 enemies can usually kill mooks like this with a blow, so are they of any use other than ablative meatshields? Can they effectively damage enemies? What's the best use of them.

[voideternal]

You can use Undead Anatomy to become a skeleton and hide yourself in your horde.

[Dasrak]

tonyz wrote:

Furthermore assume that most available corpses will be only a few HD. We're talking the classic skeleton/zombie group here, maybe 20 or 30 HD in total.

To be honest, probably not worth the onyx cost to create them. Basic zombies and skeletons are very overpriced at 25 gp per hit die, and are already obsolete by the time you've got access to the Animate Dead spell. Maybe if you had something specific in mind, but for general purpose combat probably not.

If you just have the onyx sitting around and nothing better to do with it, I'd probably go with Burning Skeletons since they get a nice extra bit of damage boost and you don't have to worry about fire-based AoE spells wiping them out instantly. Bloody Skeletons are only useful if you're sure you won't be dealing with channeled positive energy, otherwise they're useless at such low HD. As far as buff spells go, you'd need it to be area of effect because single-target spells (or even limited target like haste) would be wasted on such weak mooks. The Bless spell and a Bard's Inspire Courage come to mind, but they're both mind-affecting so won't help with undead.

[voideternal]

I think Desecrate is the basic buff spell for undead hordes.

[tonyz]

Sure, not that desecrate is a huge buff, but every bit helps.

Mostly I'm looking for ways to make these even marginally useful. I'm thinking that ambushes are one possibility. Maybe scattered missile fire from a distance would be another, but would they be likely enough to hit to be worth equipping? Or should I just skip 1-2 HD skeletons and try for 3-4 HD skeletons?

(The users are ship-borne, so flaming skeletons are probably not going to work except with great care.)

[voideternal]

I guess if you want to do damage, you'd have to choose attacks that are ranged, and attacks that are auto-hit or near auto-hit, like throwing rocks at a Wall of Sound, or throwing acid or alchemist's fire.

[tonyz]

Doing damage is usually nice - thanks for the suggestions! - but the real question is: are there ways to make lower-level mook types effective?

[Shorticus]

TBH I would consider the merits of Aid Another. Two nooks using Aid Another grant 4 AB to an ally together. Flank and charge whenever possible. Use weaker nooks to eat up AoOs for tougher ones. And beyond that, consider equipping them with weapons that target touch, perhaps? Acid flasks?

[Tacticslion]

Effective in what way? Against what?

If you want inexpensive combat effectiveness, that's going to be fl damage. If you really have 20-30, give them all the cheapest bows you can find and have them start firing from the maximum distances. They won't be super accurate, but it's not important. Just throw them all at a single enemy - you're going to be crit fishing, and 20 attacks per round from the maximum distance is no laughing matter... unless the opponent has wind wall up or protection from arrows up... in which case you switch targets. The nice thing about this is that with your DR, you're not going to worry about your smelliest taking too much damage because at that range, it's not going to be dealing bludgeoning (few unusual exceptions aside).

In terms of cheap equipment, make use of crafter's fortune and fabricate. Go to a Forst and kill boars (or whatever) and hack trees: leather armor and bows and arrows are now yours. This isn't available at level five, but can be done at level nine (though admittedly by that point this is sucky equipment, and your just doing this to harass a single target by crit fishing or haras lots of low level rubes).

You mention that you are on a ship and thus fear fire: have your alley archers launch volleys of fire arrows at the enemy: again, start at maximum range, because why not?

If you can afford to be patient, launch a few plague zombies at a ship and effectively sacrifice them to infect a few of the rival crew, allowing their abilities to go down in time (unless they have access to healing magic).

And that's the thing - usually they will. But it could still be a way to harass folks.

You need both desecrate and unhallowed though.

... and it's still probably not worth it.

[Tacticslion]

Shorticus wrote:

TBH I would consider the merits of Aid Another. Two nooks using Aid Another grant 4 AB to an ally together. Flank and charge whenever possible. Use weaker nooks to eat up AoOs for tougher ones. And beyond that, consider equipping them with weapons that target touch, perhaps? Acid flasks?

Also this. :D

[Mark Hoover 330]

One last thing I'd mention, combining the ideas of weaker mooks absorbing AoOs, Aid Another and Flanking: Grappling.

If the horde can get close enough to the PCs to target a Small sized opponent or a spellcaster it might be worth it to dog-pile on that foe. A pack of three zombies grappling a wizard for example means you're eating the wizard's actions right along with his brains.

At the OP: the pain you're feeling is the pain any GM feels in PF pitting higher level PCs against low-level mooks, whether they're undead or not. Going strictly by the CR, 4 gnolls are a CR 5 fight. I recently put those mooks against a decently built half-orc barbarian 4, Halfling oracle 4, elf wizard 4 and ratfolk alchemist 4.

The fight was over in 2 rounds; no damage dealt to a single PC.

The issue I ran into was that the gnolls have only a +1 ranged attack so as the party closed and they threw their first spears, not a single one hit. Then once melee began 2 of them were foolish enough to be standing 5' from one another; the barbarian hewed through them both at once with Cleave. The ratfolk did a little damage, the oracle and his animal companion finished that one off and the wizard cast Glitterdust blinding the last one... making it easy to finish off the last one.

Individually low level minions have little impact on a fight other than eating up PC actions and, in the case of a horde of 20-30 undead, possibly getting in some lucky hits. Otherwise their attacks are too ineffective and their defenses too weak to allow them to pose any real threat.

If you're looking at buffs to mitigate this, consider having more than one enemy spellcaster around. In fact, consider having Adepts.

1. Bless - a nice +1 to everyone's attacks

2. Bull's Strength - +2 to melee on a single mook, and +2 on it's melee damage or sling damage (that's right; skeletons with slings)

3. Protection vs Good - +2 Deflection to AC and Saves, not too shabby

4. Familiars - an adept at level 5 might have a standard familiar with the Valet archetype that can fly to and fro delivering non-damaging Touch spells, like Bull's Strength, to individual mooks and still make it back across the battlefield to keep said familiar out of harm's way.

Combine these with Desecrate and other high-level mass buffs alongside horde tactics and you might actually affect your PCs

[Kimera757]

I think the undead horde becomes a plot device. The PCs can easily defeat them, but the PCs cannot be everywhere at once.

The monsters can ravage the countryside, bottle up the knights, eat anyone who tries to bring food to the besieged cities, etc. If the PCs strike one group of undead they aren't striking another.

I'm not sure if the necromancer even needs to control these undead (eg not care about HD limits), except when they're nearby (to avoid getting eaten, of course).

[tonyz]

In this case, we have a PC who's trying to figure out how to use the mook horde effectively... mostly, so far, it looks like using them against other mooks, for raids, that sort of thing, might be most effective.

[Coidzor]

If you're an arcane caster with False Focus, you can do some fun things with Beheaded, so long as you're not running up against things with a lot of energy immunity or resistance.

The fact that you can give them ranged touch attacks that bypass DR means that their relatively low attack bonus stays relevant for a lot longer than punk skeletons and zombies made from standard humanoids. Still about as vulnerable to a Cleric getting close to them and killing them en masse with Channel Energy, though.

They can also be made to be Swarms despite being single creatures or something, which is weird. Still, it means you can fit in 4 of them into a creature's square at a time and they'll do automatic swarm damage.

If you're able to reliably get control of an intelligent undead creature, you can do a ritual to turn someone into a Zuvembie who can cast Animate Dead for you for free as an SLA 1/day.

As for making skeletons and zombies more effective, things like nets and lassos and Aid Another seem to be the main way.

[Doomed Hero]

From the perspective of a player, or as a GM with an undead horde as a villain?

[SmiloDan]

Give them pickaxes and shovels and have them dig pits and make difficult terrain.

On a ship? Rowers. Trade your sailboat for a galley and you have a tireless crew of rowers. Also, load them onto catapults and target the sails of your enemies--with torches and barrels of oil. A good ram would be nice, too.

Equip them with tanglefoot bags and other alchemical equipment. Coat their claws in poison and their rags in plague.

Teach them to grapple, use Aid Another, and manacles?

Mass bull's strength and mass eagle's splendor? Is there a mass false life or mass aid?

I think that inquisitor's spell that shares their Teamwork feats would be good, too. Also that spell that enhances battle tactical positioning that paladins get.

Obviously, surrounding NPCs and combining flanking and Aid Another can give a +4 or +6 bonus on attack rolls. Also, just using them for battlefield control can be useful. Or push them off the boat. And have a flock of zombie sharks following your ship. Or herd or school or murder or whatever the collective noun for sharks is. A frenzy?

[Cynicalpleb]

The way I did it when having to use low Hd bodies for an army was to have a defensive line made of burning skeletons with tower shields and armor. With the second line composed of archer skeletons (extra feat Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot is always good for an archer)

Then cast desecrate and other various buffs like the others have pointed out.

[Spudster]

you could use the Creature Mob template

[Cynicalpleb]

Then again a zombie horde is made of 50 zombies so if you have a bunch of onyx gems and a bunch of corpses maybe make this :
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/zombie/zombie-hord e-fgg/

[Icelemental]

Coidzor wrote:

They can also be made to be Swarms despite being single creatures or something, which is weird. Still, it means you can fit in 4 of them into a creature's square at a time and they'll do automatic swarm damage.

Can anyone please confirm or explain how this works? I've been searching for days and can't find anything specific that clearly outlines the process. The Beheaded Swarm entry says it's a Tiny (Swarm), but the Swarm entry says Tiny (Swarm) is 1,000 flying creatures. (And a typical humanoid skull is a Tiny object, right?) So would you have to find 1,000 separate skulls to create a Beheaded Swarm, or am I missing something?

[SmiloDan]

Troop monster type

[Coidzor]

Icelemental wrote:

Coidzor wrote:

They can also be made to be Swarms despite being single creatures or something, which is weird. Still, it means you can fit in 4 of them into a creature's square at a time and they'll do automatic swarm damage.

Can anyone please confirm or explain how this works? I've been searching for days and can't find anything specific that clearly outlines the process. The Beheaded Swarm entry says it's a Tiny (Swarm), but the Swarm entry says Tiny (Swarm) is 1,000 flying creatures. (And a typical humanoid skull is a Tiny object, right?) So would you have to find 1,000 separate skulls to create a Beheaded Swarm, or am I missing something?

It's basically undefined in the rules and seems to work via some form of paradox. So you follow the procedure to make a single Beheaded, use up the additional HD, onyx, etc. to give it whatever special abilities from the options for Beheaded, and then it gets them, of which one is Swarming.

Probably in no small part because it would take an obscenely high CL in order to animate and control 1000 skulls and force them into a swarm together.