so i'm noticing that my pc's are getting a lot of bonus to hit and damage and it's getting hard to keep the fights challenging for them.
my main question is i think i was told the wrong way how enchantments work. from what i understand, enchantments function like slots. you must buy the +1 enhancement bonus before you can put a +1 enchantment on your weapon. and that the enhancement bonus adds to the weapons attack bonus/damage. the question is if that enhancement bonus continues to apply after the enchantment is added.
okay so lets say my fighter is level 8. he has mwk flail that has four +1 enchantments on it. his strength is 18. he has weapon training (Mace). and the "weapon focus" feat. so would his attack bonus be:
D20+BAB(8)+Str(4)+Taining(+1)+Enhancement(4)+Feat(1)
and 1D8+Str(4)+Enhancement(4) damage
or, since there are enchantments would it be:
D20+BAB(8)+Str(4)+Taining(+1)+Enhancement(1)+Feat(1)
and 1D8+Str(4)+Enhancement(1) damage
i'm sorry if this is too convoluted.
Once the weapon has its first +1 enchantment, we don't count them up as '+1 enchantments'. After that, we just use the total: so your flail with four +1 enchantments is a +4 flail. Which, for a fighter of 8th level, is a rather expensive item to possess based on wealth-by-level.
The attack bonus would be BAB (8)+ Strength bonus (4) + weapon training bonus (1) + Weapon Focus (flail-you have to take this for each weapon you want it in, doesn't help if it's not specific to flail) (1) + enhancement bonus (4)=+18 bonus to hit. That's a lot for a fighter at that level due to the weapon being so powerful, but given the fighter could have a higher strength score, not totally impossible either.
Damage would be 1d8+4 (Strength) +4 (weapon bonus) +1 (training adds to damage if I recall rightly). Assuming the weapon is used in one hand. Also assuming nothing like the Power Attack feat.
The enchantments don't function quite like slots; you can enhance a weapon up to a +5 bonus to hit/damage aka a '+5 weapon' and then add miscellaneous abilities (e.g. flaming) to bring the total to +10.
A fighter at that level usually isn't having trouble hitting his foes, but rather not getting to them (e.g. flying) or they put magical whammies on him (e.g. charm spells, hold spells, confusion spells, sleep spells, etc.). This guy isn't all that optimized for damage even (not using a two-handed weapon or a bow).
I hope that helps!
that was just an example. the fighter in my group is very defensive built. full plate, tower shield, etc. i'm running the "rise of the runelords" campaign and he's put a lot of gold into his weapon in order to actually hit and do damage. i was just using this as a hypothetical to make sure i was doing the math correctly for enchantments.
Just checking you are not counting flaming (+1 enhancement) as an attack bonus .
So a +1 flaming heavy flail would be +1 to hit +1 damage and 1d6 fire damage and cost the same amount as a +2 heavy flail
The example for a level 8 fighter actually looks to be low on the to hit numbers as he has what in my games would be a poor strength for his level, although a + weapon is more than most 8th level characters should have in fact an 8th level character is expected to have 33000 gp of gear and a +4 weapon is 32315 for a +4 heavy flail )or a +1 flaming, shocking , frost flail (+4 equivlant)
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Just to make sure, because I've seen people make this mistake before: you are pricing that +4 mace at 32,000 gp, not 8,000 gp, right? We had a fairly experienced PFS player a while back who thought the price of +1 enhancement bonus abilities was 2,000 gp, regardless of the weapon's total effective modifier.
Just to back up John and Illeist, you mentioned “four +1 enhancements” on the weapon. Is that “+1, flaming, frost, shock”, or “+1, +1, +1, +1”? The first is okay, and costs 32,000. The second is only okay if it cost 32,000 (not 8,000).
from what i understand, enchantments function like slots. you must buy the +1 enhancement bonus before you can put a +1 enchantment on your weapon. and that the enhancement bonus adds to the weapons attack bonus/damage. the question is if that enhancement bonus continues to apply after the enchantment is added.
This is confusing, and not just because the words "enchantment" and "enhancement" look really similar.
You must buy a +1 enhancement bonus before you can put something like "Flaming" on a weapon.
For 8000 gp (plus base weapon cost) you can have a +2 weapon OR a +2 equivalent weapon.
A +2 weapon gives you +2 to hit and +2 to damage and nothing else.
A +2 equivalent weapon would be something like a +1 Flaming sword. This would give you +1 to hit and +1 to damage and +1d6 fire damage.
It sounds like maybe you are playing it that you can get both the +2 to hit and the 'flaming' enchantment for 8000gp?
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so i'm noticing that my pc's are getting a lot of bonus to hit and damage and it's getting hard to keep the fights challenging for them.
my main question is i think i was told the wrong way how enchantments work. from what i understand, enchantments function like slots. you must buy the +1 enhancement bonus before you can put a +1 enchantment on your weapon. and that the enhancement bonus adds to the weapons attack bonus
/damage. the question is if that enhancement bonus continues to apply after the enchantment is added.
You're mixing things up a little here. Let's call that enhancement bonus that you have to buy by its correct name: Masterwork.
Being masterwork gives a weapon a +1 Enhancement bonus to attack, but it's not a magical Enchantment. It's also normally done when the weapon is crafted. That is, you purchase it that way*. Also, it does NOT add to damage. Only to attack. The enhancement bonus from Masterwork does not stack with magical enchantment.
okay so lets say my fighter is level 8. he has mwk flail that has four +1 enchantments on it. his strength is 18. he has weapon training (Mace). and the "weapon focus" feat. so would his attack bonus be:
or, since there are enchantments would it be:
D20+BAB(8)+Str(4)+Taining(+1)+Enhancement(1)+Feat(1)
and 1D8+Str(4)+Enhancement(1) damagei'm sorry if this is too convoluted.
Please note like others have said, the cost of further enchantment increases exponentially. The cost for a weapon enchantment is Total weapon enchantment value squared * 2,000:
2^2 * 2,000
4 * 2,000
8,000
Also remember that "+1 Equivalent" or "+2 Equivalent" enchantments are factored into that. Note that before you put other enchantments on a weapon, it must have been made magical; at least +1.
3^2 * 2,000
9 * 2,000
18,000
So the cost of your +4 weapon (very uncommon at level 8) would be:
4^2 * 2,000
16 * 2,000
32,000
Finally, please note that I didn't check your other math. That is, the only thing I looked at when selecting an answer was the weapon itself.
*It's possible to get a spell called "Masterwork Transformation" cast on your weapon after-the-fact, but it's more expensive than just buying that way in the first place.
okay, i understand how the gold works. yes he has paid the right amount for the enchantments.
his enchantments for the weapon are shocking, corrossive, flaming, and keen. my question is if each of those would "consume" a +1 making the weapon only get a +1 enhancement bonus to attack. or he would still get the +4 even with the enchantments?
it would be a +1 Shocking, Corrosive , Flaming, Keen weapon with only +1 to hit and damage. which would be a +5 weapon
it would be a +1 Shocking Corrosive , Flaming, Keen weapon with only +1 to hit and damage.
thank you. this is what i was trying to find out
A +1 Corrosive, Keen, flaming, Shockign weapon is a +5 weapon worth a good 50000gp about 50% more than a pc of that level should have in total. It may be that if he has much more equipment your problem with his power level is because he is massively overequiped for his level. In general 25% of wealth on a weapon would be typical so I Would expect a +1 Flaming weapon rather than the +5 weapon described.
Breaking it down
+1 enchantment
flaming (another +1 enhantment)
corrosive (another +1 enchantment)
Keen (another +1 enchantment only possible on slashing weapons)
Shocking (another +1 enchantment)
total +5 weapon worth 50,300gp
Note there is no reason why he could not have a +1 Brilliant Energy weapon
+1 enchantment
Brilliant Energy (+4 Enchantment) it is a +5 weapon, or he could just have a +5 weapon for the same cost
We don’t actually know what level the PC is - the example was 8th level, but the example character only had a +4 equivalent weapon, whereas the actual character has a +5 equivalent weapon and we don’t know his level. So making assumptions about WBL might be inappropriate.
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Also, I’ve realised that this question is one which would have made SKR throw his hands up in despair: enchantment is a school of magic. There are (IIRC) a tiny handful of spells from that school which affect weapons.
Magic weapons have an enhancement bonus and special weapon abilities. The full formal answer (in rulespeak) to the question which was asked is “special weapon abilities do not provide an enhancement bonus to attack and damage, but have an equivalent bonus for determining the overall cost of the weapon”.
A keen flail? Keen can only be placed on slashing or piercing weapons. Flails are bludgeoning weapons, so it won't work.
Also there is no such thing as Weapon Training (mace). Even if there were, I'm not sure how it would help with a flail.
I will never give another example again since only one person actually answered my question and everyone else wanted to nitpick every other detail of the example instead.
A +1 Corrosive, Keen, flaming, Shockign weapon is a +5 weapon worth a good 50000gp about 50% more than a pc of that level should have in total. It may be that if he has much more equipment your problem with his power level is because he is massively overequiped for his level. In general 25% of wealth on a weapon would be typical so I Would expect a +1 Flaming weapon rather than the +5 weapon described.
Breaking it down
+1 enchantment
flaming (another +1 enhantment)
corrosive (another +1 enchantment)
Keen (another +1 enchantment only possible on slashing weapons)
Shocking (another +1 enchantment)
total +5 weapon worth 50,300gpNote there is no reason why he could not have a +1 Brilliant Energy weapon
+1 enchantment
Brilliant Energy (+4 Enchantment) it is a +5 weapon, or he could just have a +5 weapon for the same cost
No. The weapon would be +1 from the mwk and the +4 enchantments. You don't put a +1 then another +1 just for flaming.
We don’t actually know what level the PC is - the example was 8th level, but the example character only had a +4 equivalent weapon, whereas the actual character has a +5 equivalent weapon and we don’t know his level. So making assumptions about WBL might be inappropriate.
THANK YOU!!!!!!
No. The weapon would be +1 from the mwk and the +4 enchantments. You don't put a +1 then another +1 just for flaming.A +1 Corrosive, Keen, flaming, Shockign weapon is a +5 weapon worth a good 50000gp about 50% more than a pc of that level should have in total. It may be that if he has much more equipment your problem with his power level is because he is massively overequiped for his level. In general 25% of wealth on a weapon would be typical so I Would expect a +1 Flaming weapon rather than the +5 weapon described.
Breaking it down
+1 enchantment
flaming (another +1 enhantment)
corrosive (another +1 enchantment)
Keen (another +1 enchantment only possible on slashing weapons)
Shocking (another +1 enchantment)
total +5 weapon worth 50,300gpNote there is no reason why he could not have a +1 Brilliant Energy weapon
+1 enchantment
Brilliant Energy (+4 Enchantment) it is a +5 weapon, or he could just have a +5 weapon for the same cost
John Hawkins is correct. The weapon must be masterwork before you can add a +1 enchancement bonus and it must have a +1 enhancement bonus before you can add flaming or any other magical property to it. You absolutely do put a +1 then another +1 just for flaming.
I will never give another example again since only one person actually answered my question and everyone else wanted to nitpick every other detail of the example instead.
Sorry. It wasn't intended to be insulting. I was genuinely confused about parts of your build, and I didn't think I could help you without further clarification. For example, since there is no such thing as Weapon Training (mace) and you are using a flail, I wasn't sure if you didn't understand Weapon Training or if you were mistaking another ability for Weapon Training. So I wasn't sure about how the stacking rules would apply.
John Hawkins is correct. The weapon must be masterwork before you can add a +1 enchancement bonus and it must have a +1 enhancement bonus before you can add flaming or any other magical property to it. You absolutely do put a +1 then another +1 just for flaming.No. The weapon would be +1 from the mwk and the +4 enchantments. You don't put a +1 then another +1 just for flaming.A +1 Corrosive, Keen, flaming, Shockign weapon is a +5 weapon worth a good 50000gp about 50% more than a pc of that level should have in total. It may be that if he has much more equipment your problem with his power level is because he is massively overequiped for his level. In general 25% of wealth on a weapon would be typical so I Would expect a +1 Flaming weapon rather than the +5 weapon described.
Breaking it down
+1 enchantment
flaming (another +1 enhantment)
corrosive (another +1 enchantment)
Keen (another +1 enchantment only possible on slashing weapons)
Shocking (another +1 enchantment)
total +5 weapon worth 50,300gpNote there is no reason why he could not have a +1 Brilliant Energy weapon
+1 enchantment
Brilliant Energy (+4 Enchantment) it is a +5 weapon, or he could just have a +5 weapon for the same cost
that makes no sense.
Masterwork gives a +1 Enhancement bonus to hit, but it is not a +1 weapon yet. In order to put Flaming on the Weapon, you'd need to upgrade the MWK weapon into a +1. As a note, the +1 bonus from Mwk does not stack with the +1 bonus from making it a +1, as both are Enhancement bonuses.
Step 1: Buy a MWK weapon. Cost: 300+Weapon Cost.
Step 2: Make it Magical (A +1 weapon). Cost: 2,000.
Step 3: Add Flaming. Cost: 6,000.
End result of bonuses: +1 to hit and damage and 1d6 fire damage.
that makes no sense.
What doesn't make sense?
First, you start with a masterwork weapon. That gives you a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
Then, you enchant it to +1, which costs 2000gp. The +1 enhancement bonus applies to attack rolls and damage rolls. As an enhancement bonus, it does not stack with the enhancement bonus granted by being masterwork.
Next, you add the Flaming property. Flaming is priced as a +1 effective enhancement. That means the total price of the weapon is now effectively the same as a +2 weapon, or 8000gp total (plus the cost of the masterwork item). As you have already paid 2000gp, the upgrade costs 6000gp (or only 3000, if you do it yourself).
A +2 weapon and a +1 flaming weapon cost the exact same.
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Let's build a +1 shocking, corrosive, flaming, keen, medium, steel longsword one step at a time.
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Step 1: Buying a Masterwork Sword
A medium longsword normally costs 15 gp, deals 1d8 in damage, and has a critical threat range of 19-20. If you want to add Enhancements or Special abilities to the sword, then it must be masterwork which costs an additional 300 gp.So our character spends 315 gp to purchase a masterwork longsword. Masterwork provides a +1 Enhancement Bonus on attack rolls but not to damage. The sword is not magical and so does not help overcome DR/magic.
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Step 2: Adding a +1 Enhancement Bonus
Later, the character wants to add a Magical Enhancement Bonus to the sword. (Note that this must occur before any Special Abilities can be added.) This costs 2000 gp, so the total cost is now 2315 gp. Since the Magical Enhancement Bonus doesn't stack with the Enhancement Bonus from being masterwork, the sword still only grants +1 on attack rolls, but it now also grants a +1 Enhancement Bonus to damage and overcomes DR/magic. The damage is now 1d8 + 1(EB).
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Step 3: Adding the Shocking Special Ability
Still later, the character wants to add the Shocking Special Ability. This is not an Enhancement Bonus, but the cost is calculated as if you were increasing the Enhancement Bonus by another +1. We say that the sword now has a +2 Equivalent Enhancement Bonus. This costs another 6000 gp. So the sword has now cost 8315 gp, grants a +1 Enhancement Bonus on attacks, and deals 1d8 + 1(EB) + 1d6(electricity) in damage.
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Step 4: Adding the Flaming Special Ability
Adding the Flaming Special Ability also does not increase the Enhancement Bonus, but it increases the Equivalent Enhancement Bonus to +3. This adds 10,000 gp for a total cost of 18,315 gp. The sword still only gets a +1 Enhancement Bonus on attack rolls. The damage is now 1d8 + 1(EB) + 1d6(electricity) + 1d6(fire).
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Step 5: Adding the Corrosive Special Ability
The cost of adding the Corrosive Special Ability is similarly calculated by increasing the Equivalent Enhancement Bonus to +4. That would be another 14,000 gp. So the sword has cost 32,315 gp, gets a +1 Enhancement Bonus on attack rolls, and deals 1d8 + 1(EB) + 1d6(electricity) + 1d6(fire) + 1d6(acid) in damage.
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Step 6: Adding the Keen Special Ability
The character now wants to add the Keen Special Ability. Since a longsword is a slashing weapon it qualifies for this Special Ability (unlike a mace or flail). The cost is computed using an Equivalent Enhancement Bonus of +5 which adds 18,000 gp. The total cost is now 50,315 gp, and the critical threat range is now 17-20. The weapon still gets a +1 Enhancement Bonus on attack rolls and deals 1d8 + 1(EB) + 1d6(electricity) + 1d6(fire) + 1d6(acid) in damage.
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Summary
So in the end you have a +1, Keen, Shocking, Flaming, Corrosive Longsword. Although the sword's Enhancement Bonus is only +1, the various Special Abilities have increased the Equivalent Enhancement Bonus to +5 which is why the cost is the same as a +5 Longsword would be.
Since the Enhancement Bonus of the weapon is only +1 it will overcome DR/Magic but not DR/Cold Iron, DR/Silver, DR/Adamantine, or DR/Alignment the way a +5 sword would.
The sword applies its +1 Enhancement Bonus to attack rolls and also to damage rolls for a total damage of 1d8 + 1(EB) + 1d6(electricity) + 1d6(fire) + 1d6(acid). On a succesful Critical Hit (using the 17-20 threat range) the 1d8 + 1(EB) will be doubled, but the energy damage won't.
Does that help?
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Not trying to be rude Gisher, but some minor errors.
Step 4-6 is listed as step 3. In the Corrosive entry, you forgot the 315 gold.
Otherwise, really well described (far more detailed than my 3 step process).
Not trying to be rude Gisher, but some minor errors.
Step 4-6 is listed as step 3. In the Corrosive entry, you forgot the 315 gold.
Otherwise, really well described (far more detailed than my 3 step process).
Thanks, that was very helpful. I've fixed those mistakes. :)