Are you picking a fight with me over the definition of 'wielding'? *Rolls up sleeves and takes off glasses*Until a character is wielding two weapons, there is no such thing as an 'offhand weapon'.Actually its more a case of until a character makes the extra attack granted by using the two weapon fighting rules or uses another feat/ability/spell/class feature that references a off-hand. There is no off-hand.
Only slightly since you could wield both and not incur TWF penalties.
I'll just say I disagree with toastedamphibian's conclusion for the reasons I posted earlier. From my perspective you can two hand a staff in a brawlers flurry with a -2 to hit, dealing x1 damage and doing 1-3 from power attack. As such, wielding a staff as a double weapon is never beneficial.
Indeed, his options will ultimately come down to how his GM interprets the mess that is Brawler's Flurry, rather than the aggressive opinion of someone on the forums. In general, people seem to accept using Monk Flurry as the model for functional intent, as it makes the most sense.
speaking of how does a monks flurry interact with power attack?
speaking of how does a monks flurry interact with power attack?
Which flurry, unchained or 'normal'?
If a brawler multiclasses such that they never gain the improved two weapon fighting flurry, but uses the flurry ability to qualify for improved two weapon fighting (if that is allowed); When they make a full attack can they make all the attacks with the same weapon? The first bonus attack with the same weapon, but the second bonus attack with a legitimate offhand weapon? or do they use normal two weapon fighting with both bonus attacks being made with an offhanded weapon?
DM Livgin: IMO, they follow the brawler's flurry no matter if they advanced TWF fights through the class or taking the feats.
DM Livgin: IMO, they follow the brawler's flurry no matter if they advanced TWF fights through the class or taking the feats.
Brawler's Flurry dictates how two-weapon fighting works if you're using Brawler's Flurry. (Correction: it's *supposed to* dictate how it works, but fails miserably. Seriously though, whoever wrote it didn't seem to know that the feat TWF doesn't actually grant the bonus attack). Brawler's Flurry simply says that you gain the use of ITWF at level 8, so taking it manually is the same thing.
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???
I still don't see the problem.
Brawler's Flurry in no way explains how you actually gain another attack. The feat Two-Weapon Fighting simply reduces the penalties of making an attack with an offhand weapon; it doesn't add another attack (that's an inherent ability of any character who wields a second weapon). So Brawler's Flurry says you may "use this ability with any combination of..." but it never says what the ability actually does, other than granting access to the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, which does nothing but reduce the penalty for using another weapon to gain another attack, which you don't need to do with Brawler's...
Gong show.
speaking of how does a monks flurry interact with power attack?Which flurry, unchained or 'normal'?
Normal
You can use two weapon fighting without needing 2 weapons, you get 1xstr damage, and some free feats. I still don't get it. Why does it need to be more than that?
You missed the most important question. What modifiers to you use for the non-existent second weapon? As it's a 'imaginary' weapon, there is no handedness to check. When the 'flurry' doesn't use offhands, to hard to figure out how a 'combat maneuver' that relies on one works without explicit wording that isn't present in the ability.
Google translate lists gong as a Chinese word meaning "palace" "uterus" or "place of recreation".
I'm sure if you google the ENTIRE thing, you'll figure out what he means.
Why is it imaginary though?
You are using a single weapon in two weapon combat. How is it not?
Is everyone reading it as "pretend you have a second weapon that you then don't attack with" or something?
NO, it's 'use one weapon and pretend it's two' so you can use the two weapon Fighting feat.
I read it as "you may use the same weapon for your main and off hand attacks, if you wish".
Yes, and there is NO mechanism in the game to do that. For instance, the only other single weapon that allows this is one with the double weapon feature and the brawler ability diverges from it with standardized x1 damage.
Secondly, there is NO mechanism for using two handed weapons in two weapon fighting. This has been a BIG issue for 4 armed races and two weapon fighting and two armed weapons.
Why does the flurry not use offhands?
Because it uses the same weapon. Offhand is having a second weapon in your hand and the penalty for combat is the handedness of that weapon. Flurry allows for a single weapon so there is NO second weapon to check and by looking at the 'hands of effort' FAQ, you also aren't using an 'offhand' of effort, so why would have the minuses for doing so [twf minuses].
The only line that even hints 2handed weapons are acceptable also calls out offhand attacks.
Yes, it calls off offhand attacks which is kind of the WHOLE point. You use a single weapon for x1 damage: there is nothing there that resembles a traditional offhand used in TWF.
A televised talent contest show from the mid 70s...
A show when people gonged when they though the performance was awful: hence, his saying, the wording was very, very bad and should be 'gonged' offstage.
Why is it imaginary though? Is everyone reading it as "pretend you have a second weapon that you then don't attack with" or something? I read it as "you may use the same weapon for your main and off hand attacks, if you wish". Why does the flurry not use offhands? The only line that even hints 2handed weapons are acceptable also calls out offhand attacks.
A televised talent contest show from the mid 70s...
Edit:
A brawler can substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of brawler’s flurry.If one of your attacks is an unarmed strike, because you choose unarmed strikes as your main or offhand weapon, you can forgo any given unarmed strike to make one of the listed manuvers. Only trip is important really, as disarm and sunder are weapon manuvers anyways.
Flurry never mentioned an off hand attack or primary hand attack. It does mention an off hand weapon that is not required to use Brawler's Flurry.
It also doesn't hint that a weapon can be used in 2hands during a flurry... it clearly states that weapons can be used 2handed and the strength multiple that they would have. I'm not certain why you are looking to add an off hand when their just isn't room for one. No off hand means no increase to TWF penalty for using a heavy weapon in your off hand.
Edit:
A brawler can substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of brawler’s flurry.If one of your attacks is an unarmed strike, because you choose unarmed strikes as your main or offhand weapon, you can forgo any given unarmed strike to make one of the listed manuvers. Only trip is important really, as disarm and sunder are weapon manuvers anyways.
That makes it even less clear. What is the offhand modifier for a maneuver? The second weapon you didn't use? [assuming using unarmed strikes throughout]
Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler’s flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the “monk” special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.
A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler’s flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands. A brawler can substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of brawler’s flurry. A brawler with natural weapons can’t use such weapons as part of brawler’s flurry, nor can she make natural weapon attacks in addition to her brawler’s flurry attacks.
The brawler can make an offhand attack with either
a) An unarmed Strikeb) a close weapon
c) A monk weapon.
He may do this while wielding either one weapon or two. He takes appropriate TWF penalties.
So the monk is armed with brass knuckles. He can attack as usual with TWF and use the knuckles for his offhand attack. Or he can use an unarmed strike as his off attack. Or he can replace his off attack with a trip, sunder etc.
If he uses a 1h weapon, and makes an offhand attack with it, he takes appropriate twf penalties for using a 1 handed weapon in each hand..
What's an "offhand attack" as per the rules? There are only "extra attacks" and "offhand weapons", and an extra attack doesn't necessarily mean you're using an offhand weapon.
"Offhand attack" is nothing but a term players use to reference an extra attack from an offhand weapon, so saying 'it's an offhand attack so it must use an offhand weapon' is circular logic.
If he uses a 1h weapon, and makes an offhand attack with it, he takes appropriate twf penalties for using a 1 handed weapon in each hand..
That's is the part that's missing. You're making a judgment call that's it's using TWF means that the virtual 'second' weapon is the same as the main hand one. Why assume the effort needed to wield a single weapon is the same as wielding 2? The monk doesn't and they are the closest thing we have to a brawler's flurry.
It boils down to everyone's best guess and that's too vague IMO. For everyone agreeing with you, there is someone agreeing with me that it should be a -2 no matter what weapon you use. Nothing proves either one of us wrong.
PS: there is also the issue of what the modifiers are for a 2 handed weapon using your way Perfect Tommy. The TWF section doesn't list a modifier for them. We have 'normal', which is by default 1 handed, and light. No 2 handed off hand listings.
It's perhaps worth noting as well that an alternative to two-handing a shield for Brawler's Flurry is to use a strong one-handed Monk weapon in one hand and a shield in the other. You need proficiency in a Monk sword, but save on Improved Shield Bash. You only get one-handed Power Attack, but get to use a weapon that has a decent critical hit chance - and once you can start stacking Critical Focus feats with Martial Versatility, flurry-crit-fishing gets interesting.
Nah, if you want to crit-fish with a Brawler, your best bet is to grab a waveblade from Adventurer’s Armory 2.
They’re in the close weapon group, which means Brawlers are automatically proficient with them (and can scale their damage dice up), and they have an 18-20 crit range.
waveblade
Nice, I didn't notice it made into close... I'll have to remember that. I kind of like the tri-bladed Katar. No crit fishing but nothing says fun like a x4 crit!.
Perfect Tommy/
toastedamphibian: I have a question for you. If you use a single weapon and use it to figure out off hand penalties, does your shield bonus go up if you flurry with a dwarven war shield? How about a single Dual-balanced [weapon mod] weapon? Do the TWF penalties drop by 1?
toastedamphibian "TWF does not care about the primary weapon in the slightest.": Great... What's the offhand penalty for a two handed weapon in your off hand? We know what it is for light and 1 handed.
waveblade
Nice, I didn't notice it made into close... I'll have to remember that. I kind of like the tri-bladed Katar. No crit fishing but nothing says fun like a x4 crit!.
Perfect Tommy/
toastedamphibian: I have a question for you. If you use a single weapon and use it to figure out off hand penalties, does your shield bonus go up if you flurry with a dwarven war shield [with shield bash feat]? How about a single Dual-balanced [weapon mod] weapon? Do the TWF penalties drop by 1?
toastedamphibian "TWF does not care about the primary weapon in the slightest.": Great... What's the offhand penalty for a two handed weapon in your off hand? We know what it is for light and 1 handed.
-6/-10. Always.
And that's listed/pointed out where?...
Dual Balanced: Technically requires that you wield 2, not that you attack with both.
If we're going technical, you also are required to wield 2 weapons in TWF but flurry bypasses the need. Why is a TWF penalties fine to work as if you have 2 weapon but not this?
Not familiar with the shield stuff enough to say at this time.
Pretty much like the weapon mod, except if you wield 2 in TWF, the shield bonus of one goes up 1.
Because Brawler's Flurry says you can do one. It does not say you can do the other. You know how the game works, don't make me pull out the stupid anecdotes about death and gravity.
I'm confused... I was asking what your off hand penalty is for a 2 handed off hand weapon BECAUSE brawlers flurry allows it.
I don't get your -6/-10: that's for not having the feat, something that is meaningless as you use TWF.
As for balanced, if you're making the weapon act as both weapons for two weapon penalties for TWF, I don't see why you aren't doing the same thing for balanced as it does the EXACT SAME THING you just did: you pretended it was 2 weapons for TWF... For checking penalties...
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But we can't TWF with a 2HW the FAQ says so, which means we don't know what the penalty would be.
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But we can't TWF with a 2HW the FAQ says so, which means we don't know what the penalty would be.Either you read Brawler's Flurry as allowing you to do so in spite of the FAQ entry, [in which case you follow the rules as they are written, which do not mention 2 handed weapons changing the penalties ] or you do not [in which case the FAQ stands and you simply cannot do it.]
So it's NOT as clear as you've been making it out?
The point on the penalty is related as the chart for TWF isn't made with 2 handed weapons in mind. You have a one handed weapon [the ONLY CORRECT option available because of hands] side or light side. If we insist on checking the handedness, it's doesn't fit on either side. It's an unknown factor that deserves an answer.
So even if we go with your reading that it's allowed, we aren't told how to figure it out if we ARE meant to treat the main weapon as the off hand one too.
–6/–10 is for 'normal' TWF and using a two handed weapon in your offhand isn't what I'd call normal. Furry tells us that can use TWF feat but not how they manage to TWF with a 2 handed weapon.
-6/10: 1 handed offhand
–4/–8: light offhand
?????: 2 handed offhand [not intended/expected/clarified]
Now this whole thing go away if we use the monks flurry way of treating the offhand as light...
So it's NOT as clear as you've been making it out?What gave you that idea? Pointing out a logical inconsistency in a position does not mean one agrees with the underlying supposition.
His statement casts no doubt on what the penalties are. If someone where to read the rules in the way he is implying, then using a 2 hander is simply not possible, it doesn't become an unknowable grey area.
If you can use a 2handed weapon AT ALL is definitely an unclear point. The rules do not expressly allow it. There is very little evidence to suggest that such a thing is possible and not allowing it is a perfectly rational reading of the rules. Much more so than "the rules list damage changes to attacks with 2handed weapon and off hand weapons, therefore off hand weapons dont exist and 2handed weapons are fine and also monks".
What is clear is the penalties involved in doing so. 2handed is not an important attribute. It only cares about: Light (yes or no)
Edit: The whole thing also goes away if you follow the print and treat the off hand attacks' handedness as the handedness of the weapon used to make the off hand attack.
You really need to torture the reading of the rules to conclude that there is an off handed weapon when the Brawler is only holding one weapon. If there is no offhanded weapon then there is no penalty for having a weapon in your off hand. There is also no off hand attack (not even a real thing) since there is no off hand weapon.
If you want to argue that the penalty increases if a character wants to attack with 2 different 1h weapons, then your argument is more streamlined. However that is not what you are arguing.
No second weapon, no off hand penalty. I can't see it being anything other than -2.
My take:
Power Attack when using any Flurry with any weapon:
You gain the 1 handed bonus to damage, whatever that is for you.
Reason: Fighting with a two-handed weapon is much more than having two hands on a weapon when fighting. This is similar to how fighting with two weapons is different than using the Two-Weapon Fighting option. When you fight with two short swords, there are no mechanical bonuses or penalties for doing it and you can't do it until you have a BAB of +6. Fighting with two short swords while using the Two-Weapon Fighting option give you an extra attack along with some hefty penalties.
There is no reason to think Power Attack works as if Two-Handed Fighting just because you have two hands on a weapon when you are not gaining the benefits of Two-Handed Fighting (+1/2 str bonus to damage) nor suffering the penalty of using up your off hand attack to do so.
Balance wise, you have already gamed the system as there is no other way to double your attacks and get the 1 handed power attack on all of them. Also, you gamed the system again by being able to do it with a weapon that has a larger base damage die.
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Brawler's Flurry:
The penalties for all attacks are -2. There is no off hand. All damage is a normal str bonus.
Reason: The Devs have made it clear that the off hand is used, even when it is not physically used. You cannot Two-Weapon fight with a Two-Handed Weapon and Armor Spikes even though it would appear to physically fit within the rules. They do not want people to have more that x1.5 str bonus to damage for each "set" of attacks. Flurry already give you more than this by giving you x2 str bonus for each "set".
A "set" of attacks, is how many attacks you get due to your BAB. At +0 BAB you can make 1 set. At +6, you can make 2 sets, etc.
Two-Handed Fighting gives you x1.5 str bonus to damage and is a "set".
Fighting with the Two-Weapon Fighting option gives you x1 str bonus and x.5 str bonus for a total of x1.5 str bonus making it a complete "set"
Flurry allows for the use of Two-Handed weapons and extra attacks. Flurry removes the off-hand penalties to everything. Both of those statements are true, and incompatible with the Two-Weapon Fighting option.
As others have stated, it is impossible to combine all the RAW and prove anyone's opinion. However, I believe, read that again, I believe, that we have enough precedence to understand that -2 to all attacks for the addition of one extra attack at level BAB+2, and the continuation of the TWF feat tree, fully fits within the scope, spirit, and previous examples of the game.
P.s: there is not any rule I can find that makes "off hand weapon" and "two handed weapon" mutually exclusive, or that bans two-handed weapons from TWF. The problems are:
1) Two Handed weapons take 2 "hands of effort"
2) An off hand weapon only exists while TWF
3) TWF requires 2 different weapons
An exception to any of those allows an off hand two-handed weapon, and needs to tell you how much damage it does. Brawler's have an exception to 3.
Getting additional hands of effort, reducing the number of "hands" a 2handed weapon needs (while still counting as 2 handed) or some effect other than TWF that declares a weapon to be an "off hand" weapon could all theoretically occur, with the only conflict being "How much STR mod gets added to damage?" I belive the rule in 3.5 was .5 str per hand, with an additional .5str if one of the hands is your primary.
Paizo did in fact make it mutually exclusive to use a Two Handed Weapon and an Off Hand Attack at the same time. See below.
Hands of effort and the limits of the str mod to damage per "set" of attacks comes from Paizo and not Wizards. It is a totally new (post 3.5) concept to limit it. In 3.5 you could attack with a Two-Handed weapon and Armor Spikes with a +0 BAB using the Two-Weapon Fighting option. This is not allowed in Paizo. It would give you a x2 str mod bonus to damage for the "set".
Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?
No.
Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.
Just how and when can you use armor spikes? If you’re using two weapons already, can you use armor spikes to make a second off-hand attack? What if you’re using a weapon and a shield? Can you use the armor spikes for an off-hand attack and still get a shield bonus to Armor Class from the shield? What if you use a two-handed weapon?
Can you wield the weapon in two hands and still make an off-hand attack with the spikes? What are your options for using armor spikes in a grapple? Can you use them when pinned? If you have another light weapon, can you use that and your armor spikes when grappling?When you fight with more than one weapon, you gain an extra attack. (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and greater Two-Weapon Fighting give you more attacks with the extra weapon.) Armor spikes are a light weapon that can be used as the extra weapon.
If you attack only with your armor spikes during your turn (or use the armor spikes to make an attack of opportunity), you use them just like a regular weapon. If you use the full attack action, you can use armor spikes as either a primary light weapon or as an off-hand light weapon, even if you’re using a shield or using a two-handed weapon. In these latter two cases, you’re assumed to be kicking or kneeing your foe with your armor spikes.
Whenever you use armor spikes as an off-hand weapon, you suffer all the penalties for attacking with two weapons (see Table 8–10 in the PH). When using armor spikes along with a two-handed weapon, it is usually best to use the two-handed weapon as your primary attack and the armor spikes as the offhand weapon. You can use the armor spikes as the primary weapon and the two-handed weapon as the off-hand attack, but
when you do so, you don’t get the benefit of using a light weapon in your off hand.You cannot, however, use your armor spikes to make a second off-hand attack when you’re already fighting with two weapons. If you have a weapon in both hands and armor spikes, you can attack with the weapons in your hands (and not with the armor spikes) or with one of the weapons in your hands and the armor spikes (see the description of spiked armor in Chapter 7 of the PH).
...
People keep saying that... I do genuinely wish someone could explain the RAW failing here in a way I could understand. So far i've seen
1) you can't twf with a 2 handed weapon (not a rule)
2) Brawler's Flurry does not give an extra attack (working as inteded)
3) Monks do it diffrently (not relevant)
4) It's not listed in the table (and?)Ohwell.
1) Is clearly posted in the FAQ. I will show you again.
Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?
No.
Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.
In case you missed the super relevant part: "you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks."
Flurry modifies the rules of twf fighing. Flurry allows you to twf without the need to use an off hand weapon (or take an off hand attack). Brawler Flurry allows you to have an extra attack similar to two weapon fighting and count as having that feat for all purposes as long as you are using appropriate weapons. It allows you to use a 2h weapon while TWFing.
They call it "flurry" for a reason rather than simply two weapon fighting, as they do with rangers.
Flurry differences=
-No off hand weapon required for extra attack
-Able to use 2hand weapons while TWF'ing
-Full strength damage on extra attacks from TWF'ing
No off hand weapon means their can be no penalty for using a 1 hand weapon in the off hand.
Amphibian has the logic exactly right.
Clarifying one point however. It is perfectly possible to TWF with a two-handed weapon, so long as the weapon has the "double" quality.
So all the people asking what happens if you TWF with a double weapon.
First: Brawler's flurry is used with close weapons (no two handed), Unarmed strikes. And Monk's weapons.
Almost all the pathfinder monk two handed weapons have the double quality.
This leaves the Sansetsukon, the Tiger fork, the Kyoketsu shoge, and the Seven-branched sword.
The first two mention a normal staff - which can be used as double.
The Kyoketsu specifically explains how to weild it TWF;
Which leaves the seven branched sword.
Which I have no explanation for.
That being said, specific trumps general. Brawlers have a class feature that allows them to brawler's flurry with a two handed weapon.
That trumps the FAQ general proscription against twfing with a two handed weapon.
Now, in reality, is it an issue? No. The penalties are -6/-10. The seven-branched sword is exotic. Brawler's aren't proficient.