I just finished playing through 'Incident at Absalom Station', and all I can think is that the Paizo guys are so jaded by years of powergamers that they have no idea what a level 1-2 party should be capable of. Since I'm actually the one who owns the book, I flipped through it a bit to confirm my suspicions. We were regularly asked to make DC 20+ skill checks (which we knew because rolls of 19 were failing), were hit by enemies that had +10 or more to hit, ect. It didn't help that we only had 3 players, but it should have been explained somewhere that it's essential to hyper-specialize your characters if you want to have any hope of succeeding. I was at one point asked to make two back-to-back Computers checks, one with a DC of 21 and one with a DC of 23. There was also a DC 25 Engineering check, a DC 30 Culture check, and a trap with a DC 24 Perception check that did 6d6 damage and dropped my fully healthy Vesk soldier to 0 hp instantly. Am I crazy in thinking that's all way too much to ask of a level 2 character? Is this how Starfinder is just going to be, a litany of failed skill checks and bewildered players? Because if so, I may not come back to the APs at all and stick to making our own stuff.
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I am sorry you are not enjoying your game.
I am running two games of 5 players each, but my experience running both groups is only anecdotal. Out of 10 players, only 1 "hyper-specialized" his character during my lead-in introduction to the game, and actually toned his ysoki operative down for the actual AP.
DC check 20's are regularly attainable. Consider reviewing page 133, specifically Aid Another. Having 8-ish in skill mods (Trained is +1, Class Skill is additional +3, a reasonable 16 in stat for +3 more, +1 for operative's edge or other class bonuses), coupled with +2 aid puts you in the 50-50 range to hit that target number. I don't think that unreasonable at all.
Your laser trap is run wrong. It's 3d6 damage, not 6d6, found on a Perception of 21, not 24, and disabled on an Engineering 15 (pg 28 in the AP). Again, somewhere in the 50% chance of finding it from average characters; not that hard. Real bad day if the GM rolls trip-sixes, but average damage barely gets through Stamina.
The DC 20 information is reasonably easy to get and rewards the group with the larger XP reward. The DC 30 information is much more difficult, but rewards phenominal success with more "story information" than "necessary information" for player success, and rewards a modest XP gain.
Loss of that exceptional but modest XP gain does not inhibit the players being able to make Level 2 and 3 in the areas they should (I did extensive XP mapping due to running 5 instead of 4 in order to make sure the larger parties leveled in the same areas).
Combat has run an average of 5 rounds. I keep track of rounds because we have a solarian and I'm tracking his charges. My players are generally hitting EACs fairly easy. KACs are only modestly upgraded (12 instead of 10). PC damage tends to be small until someone gets a crit or a really good damage roll. Enemy do not have Stamina, so pew-pewing through 13 HP at 1d4 at a time isn't really that big of a deal.
Standing here and not sitting at your table, I have a hard time seeing exactly where the problem is. My experience has been quite different from yours. Starting character stats put the players as accomplished, and numbers seem fair. When players fail it hasn't been catastrophic, and the AP seems well thought out and reasonably balanced.
Again, I am sorry you are not enjoying your game.
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Yeah, looking through the AP, most skill checks are DC 10-15. There are some 20s or better scattered around, but most of those are avoidable (an Engineering check bypassable with an acquirable key card, Diplomacy or Intimidate checks to avoid fights the adventure expects you to have, that DC 30 Cultures check is bypassed completely by Comprehend Languages, etc.). Indeed, there's a key card findable that adds +5 to those two computers checks you mention, making them a DC 16 and a DC 18 effectively.
The Perception DC 24 trap (yes, this exists, it's later in the adventure) you should be at least 2nd level before encountering, more likely 3rd, which should give a Vesk soldier a minimum of 20 HP and 16 Stm. You'd only go down if it rolled straight 6s, and it only triggers if you flub a Computers roll. So you need to fail at least two rolls for it to trigger, and you also need to fail a DC 14 Reflex save to not take half damage. Also, that's a CR 3 trap. It should be scary.
Really, it sounds like your group was just super unlucky. If the dice are against you, any adventure winds up looking super difficult. Or careless and missing all the opportunities to bypass some of the harder checks, I suppose...but I'm betting on luck being the major factor here.
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There was definitely a lot of bad luck contributing to my frustration towards the adventure, I'll admit that. We recruited the goblins, and they were routinely doing more damage than us in combat due to bad rolls. I guess I'm just not up on what is expected from pathfinder-type characters. To me a DC 20 check means even if you have a +10, which is crazy to me at 2nd level, you're only making the check 50% of the time. And none of us had more than +6 or +7 to any skills, except for the envoy who had a higher diplomacy and the mystic who had a higher mysticism. Maybe I'm just having selective memory of the adventure, but I'm pretty sure we failed about half of all the skill checks, and most of the ones we did make were due to taking 20. It didn't help that we have nobody who can really deal with computers, and that ended up being one of the most common skills we were asked for. Deadmanwalking, I agree we probably were a bit careless toward the end, as we were completely frustrated by just failing over and over again.
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Oooh. Not having anyone who does Computers as a major focus is a huge problem. That's like nobody having Spellcraft in a Pathfinder game. Only worse. You needed a hacker. Badly. As does every party in Starfinder, really. It's an essential role.
And a +6-+7 is a reasonable skill for non-skill focused first level characters...but by 3rd, that shouldve gone up by two, y'know? And an Operative or Mechanic should be better than that within their area by at least a bit.
Which actually brings me to a question: You had an Envoy specialized in Diplomacy. Did you have any other actual skill characters? Because Soldier doesn't qualify and Mystic only qualifies in very specific skills depending on Connection. Having dedicated skill characters was important even in Pathfinder, and is significantly more so in Starfinder.
So it sounds like your party weren't super optimized for skills AND lacked a hacker AND had really bad luck AND got careless towards the end.
Damn. No wonder you guys didn't have fun.
Sorry, man. :(
My group seems to have the opposite problem. Not a single one of them is focused for combat.
Operative focused on piloting. Drone mechanic focused on computers. Technomancer focused on computers. All three of them have Cha as a dump stat and none are combat focused (the mechanic uses his drone for all his combat, so the drone is the best in the group). And then we just had one more player join and he's an envoy.
The spent the docking bay battle hiding and letting the two game fight each other. I had to seriously ratchet down the fight at the Fusion Queen and removed all thugs and guards (it was just the leader and her bodyguard) - even then, they nearly TPKd.
The ship fight lasted a long time; as they spent quite a few of the rounds missing and repairing shields.
They just arrived at the Acreon, so well see how it goes.
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I've run a few sessions of this now. Just trial games really, while we had a few weeks downtime from a fifth ed game I'm running.
We came to realise in the fight in the nightclub against the downside kings, that getting a chance to rest between fights is pretty essential at first level.
Having someone capable of hacking is really useful. We had one hack the system and acces the security cameras to get a scout on where the enemies were and how prepared they are. It's something I took from the Knights of the Old republic computer games and figured it could be done in this situation.
My biggest suggestion is push the levelling forward a little. My guys are level two as they hop on to the ship to go visit the rock. They'll be level three at least one or two fights before attacking the Garrakal.
Mostly I'm doing this so we don't lose a PC while we trial the rules system. If we decide to continue, I'll be relaxing that concept in future instalments. It's not looking positive for a change though.
The Perception DC 24 trap (yes, this exists, it's later in the adventure) you should be at least 2nd level before encountering, more likely 3rd, which should give a Vesk soldier a minimum of 20 HP and 16 Stm.
Well, in organized play Incident at Absalom Station is sanctioned as an adventure for level range 1-2 and PCs can earn maximum of 3 XP (one level) per AP part.
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The Perception DC 24 trap (yes, this exists, it's later in the adventure) you should be at least 2nd level before encountering, more likely 3rd, which should give a Vesk soldier a minimum of 20 HP and 16 Stm.Well, in organized play Incident at Absalom Station is sanctioned as an adventure for level range 1-2 and PCs can earn maximum of 3 XP (one level) per AP part.
True...but if you're playing through an adventure that ends with a CR 5 encounter without doing other adventures first/interspersed with it to get to at least 2nd level by that point, that trap is the least of your problems.
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Yeah, the only reason we survived the final boss is because the Yskoi mechanic and the Lashunta operative ran into the ship and turned the ship's weapons on him. After the strength damage from the previous encounters, we couldn't even hit the thing, and he blew through my soldier's 24 stamina (and into his HP) in 2 hits. Before we incinerated him with the ships weapons, we had done a total of 10 damage to him over 5 rounds. . . And then he gained 11 temp HP from the FIRST use of his life drain ability.
Yeah, the only reason we survived the final boss is because the Yskoi mechanic and the Lashunta operative ran into the ship and turned the ship's weapons on him. After the strength damage from the previous encounters, we couldn't even hit the thing, and he blew through my soldier's 24 stamina (and into his HP) in 2 hits. Before we incinerated him with the ships weapons, we had done a total of 10 damage to him over 5 rounds. . . And then he gained 11 temp HP from the FIRST use of his life drain ability.
The end boss is ridiculous, I agree with you.
Yeah, the only reason we survived the final boss is because the Yskoi mechanic and the Lashunta operative ran into the ship and turned the ship's weapons on him. After the strength damage from the previous encounters, we couldn't even hit the thing, and he blew through my soldier's 24 stamina (and into his HP) in 2 hits. Before we incinerated him with the ships weapons, we had done a total of 10 damage to him over 5 rounds. . . And then he gained 11 temp HP from the FIRST use of his life drain ability.The end boss is ridiculous, I agree with you.
What is the fix?
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What is the fix?Yeah, the only reason we survived the final boss is because the Yskoi mechanic and the Lashunta operative ran into the ship and turned the ship's weapons on him. After the strength damage from the previous encounters, we couldn't even hit the thing, and he blew through my soldier's 24 stamina (and into his HP) in 2 hits. Before we incinerated him with the ships weapons, we had done a total of 10 damage to him over 5 rounds. . . And then he gained 11 temp HP from the FIRST use of his life drain ability.The end boss is ridiculous, I agree with you.
Level three prior to the fight. Change some of the loot drops to include more electric damage which the thing is susceptible to.
Level three puts all the characters into the thirties and 40s in terms of damage they can take before droppping. It also opens up a few more niche abilities to throw at it.
What is the fix?Yeah, the only reason we survived the final boss is because the Yskoi mechanic and the Lashunta operative ran into the ship and turned the ship's weapons on him. After the strength damage from the previous encounters, we couldn't even hit the thing, and he blew through my soldier's 24 stamina (and into his HP) in 2 hits. Before we incinerated him with the ships weapons, we had done a total of 10 damage to him over 5 rounds. . . And then he gained 11 temp HP from the FIRST use of his life drain ability.The end boss is ridiculous, I agree with you.Level three prior to the fight. Change some of the loot drops to include more electric damage which the thing is susceptible to.
Level three puts all the characters into the thirties and 40s in terms of damage they can take before droppping. It also opens up a few more niche abilities to throw at it.
Also level to damage.
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My "fix" is to turn it into a horror scene a la the original Alien movie. They're not meant to actually go toe to toe with it, but rather kill it by shunting it out an airlock. Or something. I'll let them figure it out.
Anyways, I plan on showing them how dangerous it is by having them witness it kill some other creatures on the drift rock, and then escape through some ventilation shafts (using its phase ability to actually fit). From the moment they enter the drift rock, they'll be able to start planning on what to do about it. Whatever plan they come up with, I'll find a way to make it work.
My "fix" is to turn it into a horror scene a la the original Alien movie. They're not meant to actually go toe to toe with it, but rather kill it by shunting it out an airlock. Or something. I'll let them figure it out.
Anyways, I plan on showing them how dangerous it is by having them witness it kill some other creatures on the drift rock, and then escape through some ventilation shafts (using its phase ability to actually fit). From the moment they enter the drift rock, they'll be able to start planning on what to do about it. Whatever plan they come up with, I'll find a way to make it work.
I would be tempted to make the first plan not work. It might help add to the horror aspect.
Then the second idea works
Dot.
Some good advice in this thread that I hope to remember for when my group finishes our current Pathfinder campaign and starts into Starfinder.
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We were a party of 5 (mechanic, envoy, Mystic, soldier, operative.). We were level 3.
We were rolling pretty poorly, but I don't see how we could have beat it. It could hit the two people with heavy armor (vesk mystic and me) on a 2, or 6 if he full attacked. He made all his saves vs our mystic's brain blast, We did a total of 10 damage to him, then he drained our undamaged envoy for half her stamina in one shot (she even made her save) and got it all back as temp HP. One full attack blew through my 24 stamina and into my HP, and I (the soldier) never hit it once.
Part of the problem is that you don't get to liquidate your assets and buy new gear (like armor) between levels 1 and 3
Our mechanic couldn't hit it, and our operative couldn't trick it.
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@Vampbyday - rolling poorly will turn any encounter to deadly though.
My group were getting hammered in the second fight of the bar against the Downside Kings, because they rolled really poorly.
This thing has Armour 17/19.
The DC save for its life drain is only 13
It's will save is only +6 against a DC of 16 for spells against it.
So, hitting it can be swingy. However it's large so getting a clean shot at it should not be difficult. (Less capable of using cover)
Passing the save against its life drain is 50/50 for most part. However if you force it phase shift it can't life drain very often, or vice versa.
Getting spells off against it are 50/50 for the most part.
A 50/50 effectiveness against a high level fight is something I'm ok with. The problem this time is it comes after the party have already taken on other things so they are resource poor.
But nothing is going to help a group who all roll consistently lower than ten on the dice when fighting this thing.
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Testing and Balance are no longer part of Paizo idea of how to do things.
I'll just go ahead and call BS on that statement.
They had a playtest with select groups. Quite a few groups from what I can tell.
The game is quite well balanced in fact. This encounter isn't that big a deal if you're level three walking into it.
I think people's expectations are off kilter for what their characters can do, likely from the overpowered options Pathfinder now provides.
This is a CR+2 encounter for a group of 4 level three characters.
That means it's very dangerous.
That means you can expect characters to probably go unconscious fighting it, but they should win.
It backs off when you deal 15 damage to it and starts doing ranged damage to self heal. It can only do that four times, or phase shift 4 times, or a combination of those two up to 4 times.
It flees completely when dropped to 25 hit points.
Like all enemies you fight in Starfinder (that I've seen so far), it has no trouble hitting you. But by level three you'll have between 30 to 40 hp/stamina to fight it.
If you're silly enough to stand still and let this thing full attack you each round, your going to die. That's just bad tactics. Given you are unlikely to hit it well if you full attack yourself then there's no reason to be standing still and engaging. Guarded step and fight as needed. Landing one hit is better than none, and it will save you damage. You can take this thing on and win as expected, assuming you don't roll really bad formthe whole party for the entire fight. Which is what VampByDay said happened in his group.
Additionally, use of harrying fire and covering fire as tactics for members of the group not able to hit this thing so easily will make it much easier to hit for your combat guys. It's only a AC15 to beat for either of those, and they're not affected by cover or having someone in combat.
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As a follow up, here's a rundown of how I see combat working in this thing with my group.
We have a
soldier (AC 19 against its bite, 30 stamina, 27 hp. +7 to hit with gun for 1d10+3 energy damage)
Operative (AC 16 against its bite. 18 stamina, 20 Hp. +6 to hit, D4+3 energy damage)
Mechanic (with combat droid) (AC 16 vs bite, 18 stamina, 20 HP. +5 hit (d4 +3) not sure on his droids stats but it fires a heavy weapon using kinetic damage. Likely +5 to hit.
Envoy (AC 16, 21 stamina, 22 HP) uses bluff to debuff enemies all the time really well. But will have issues in this due to its CR.
Round 1
- Garrakal attacks and probably hits one party member for about 15 damage. Roll randomly who it attacks since none of them are humans so it wants to taste all of them.
Everyone shoots, probably only soldier hits given his high attack mod and his soldier ability to,reduce any cover it has. Average of about 7 damage done to beast.
Round 2
Garrakal bites again, moving to re engage since my players will definitely use guarded step since they all shoot guns. It cannot full attack. Probably hits doing about 15 damage.
If it's the soldier being attacked, no probs. any one else is likely to be sore.
Party now uses tactics to kill this thing since they realise how hard it is to shoot. Operative harries for the soldier. Soldier now hits better than 50% of the time.
Mechanic harries for the Combat Drone. Drone can now hit for about 50% of the time.
Envoy likely tries to Feint again. DC is 20, but he has a bluff of 12 at level 3 and uses the D6 skill booster for bluff. He'll stick the debuff so,now it's flat footed.
Soldier and battledroid will likely hit. Dishing out around 12 damage between them.
Round 3
Garrakal is now flat footed and damaged hard enough it will withdraw to try and self heal using its life drain (costing one resolve).
Target is likely to pass its save and takes average of 7 damage. This likely drops the target the creature has been attacking so far. Unless it is the soldier who is only just now taking hp damage.
Group repeats the process of last round, deals out another 12 damage.
This is enough to keep the thing at bay since it will not engage while below 60 hp. So,now it's burning resolve to keep healing back between 7 and 15 damage and still can't full attack.
And this is fighting it without using grenades nor considering my group will likely have allies with them (goblins and the android assassin)
It will be a hard fight, and it's meant to be. But it is doable, and only involves low level tactics to work too.
Like all enemies you fight in Starfinder (that I've seen so far), it has no trouble hitting you. But by level three you'll have between 30 to 40 hp/stamina to fight it.
Are Player Character Armor Classes too low?
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Like all enemies you fight in Starfinder (that I've seen so far), it has no trouble hitting you. But by level three you'll have between 30 to 40 hp/stamina to fight it.Are Player Character Armor Classes too low?
I haven't found them overly problematic. It's a ranged combat heavy game so cover is going to come up a lot. Lots of PC abilities work to reduce the cover of enemies or boost their own. The combat balance likely assumes +4 to ac due to cover.
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No AC is not too low.
It seems to me that people think that if there's a chance they'll miss, the game is out of balance, and if there's a chance they'll get hit, the game is out of balance. Combine the two together, and the game is "ridiculous."
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Like all enemies you fight in Starfinder (that I've seen so far), it has no trouble hitting you. But by level three you'll have between 30 to 40 hp/stamina to fight it.Are Player Character Armor Classes too low?
Starfinder is predicated on NPCs/Monsters having higher to-hit and lower AC than PCs do. So everyone's usually gonna have fair odds of hitting each other.