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What is the DC for using a medpatch to Treat Deadly Wounds?
The Medical Expert feat says 'You can use the Medicine skill in conjunction with a medpatch or sprayflesh to treat deadly wounds as a full action.' Medicine skill says 'You can use Medicine to restore Hit Points to a living, wounded creature. This takes 1 minute, and the DC is based on the medical equipment used.' Medpatch says 'A medpatch allows you to attempt a Medicine check untrained with a +10 circumstance bonus, but only for the first aid, long-term stability, treat disease, and treat drugs or poison tasks.'
The DC is still based on the Medkit you're using. Medical Expert simply allows you to use a consumable (sprayflesh, medpatch) to do it faster.
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I think the RAW answer is that the DC depends on the type of medkit you have, and the medpatch gives you a bonus
Hmm, but that's not what Medical Expert says - it explicitly allows you to Treat Deadly Wounds with a medpatch, and you might not even HAVE a medkit.
Correction looks like the dc for deadly wounds is 25 and there is a clause on medical expert where the normal effects of the medpatch and sprau flesh dont work normally but they allow you to treat deadly wounds at dc 25 as a full round action instead of the normal list od things they can treat
Where did you get the DC from?? It's not in the rulebook, or SRD?
The DC is listed in the equipment section entries for Basic Medkit (DC 25) and Advanced Medkit (DC 20).
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I think Medical Expert isn't there to let you treat deadly wounds with a medpatch, but instead to treat deadly wounds faster if you use a medpatch in conjunction with your normal medkit.
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Creme, that DC is for the medkits, yes, but as the feat says, you are able to Treat Deadly Wounds with just the medpatch or synthflesh. Rothlis even says there is a DC for that, even though I don't see one.
d'Eon, that's not what it actually says though. It says 'You can use the Medicine skill in conjunction with a Medpatch or Synthflesh', not something like 'You can use a basic or advanced medkit with a Medpatch or synthflesh' or 'You can use a medpatch or synthflesh to improve the use of a medkit'. Medical Expert does not mention a medical kit at all.
as the feat says, you are able to Treat Deadly Wounds with just the medpatch or synthflesh.
It says nothing of the sort.
"You can use the Medicine skill in conjunction with a medpatch or sprayflesh to treat deadly wounds as a full action."
You are still using the Medicine skill. The DC for treating deadly wounds using the Medicine skill is based on the medkit you are using.
"When used in this way, the medpatch or sprayflesh does not perform any of its normal functions."
All the medpatch or sprayflesh does is allow you do it as a full action.
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Creme, I'm starting to think you are using this feat the way the designer intended, but that is not at all what is written in the various rules...
You are still using the Medicine skill.
Which part of the Medicine skill says you need to use a medkit? The only part of the Medicine skill that even mentions any gear is the part that says 'The DCs of most Medicine tasks are based on the type of equipment used.' Nothing in the skill description mandates any particular gear for any particular operation.
Instead, the equipment description itself tells us what it can be used for. Except that, then, Medical Expert overrides that, and tells us we can use a Medpatch and Sprayflesh to treat deadly wounds instead of their normal function. It doesn't actually say you need anything other than the medpatch or sprayflesh. This implies the DC should be set by the medpatch or sprayflesh.
However, given the lack of DC, I am sad to say I think the designer intended the feat to be used in conjunction with a medkit/medbay, even if it' never actually mentioned anywhere in the rules.
Which part of the Medicine skill says you need to use a medkit? The only part of the Medicine skill that even mentions any gear is the part that says 'The DCs of most Medicine tasks are based on the type of equipment used.' Nothing in the skill description mandates any particular gear for any particular operation.
"The DCs of most Medicine tasks are based on the type of equipment used (see Chapter 7 for that information)."
"Medical gear allows you to attempt Medicine checks and determines the DC of Medicine checks to treat deadly wounds." - p.220 (Chapter 7)So we need gear, and it sets the DC.
Except that, then, Medical Expert overrides that, and tells us we can use a Medpatch and Sprayflesh to treat deadly wounds instead of their normal function. It doesn't actually say you need anything other than the medpatch or sprayflesh. This implies the DC should be set by the medpatch or sprayflesh.
No, it does not. It says "You can you can use the Medicine skill in conjunction with a medpatch or sprayflesh to treat deadly wounds as a full action." "In conjunction with," not "with only." You are using the Medicine skill as well as the medpatch/sprayflesh. Nothing says you no longer need appropriate gear as required by the Medicine skill. So the DC is still based on the Medical Gear you are using to treat deadly wounds with Medicine.
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What is the DC for using a medpatch to Treat Deadly Wounds?
If we start from the most basic situation with regard to the Medicine skill and what can be done without equipment first, then add what can be done with what equipment, and finally add how the Medical Expert feat changes things, I think we can understand both RAI and RAW.
First, medicine is a "trained only" skill, meaning that without the skill and without any equipment, one can't do any of the things listed under the Medicine skill.
If someone untrained in Medicine has a Medpatch, however, he can attempt to administer first aid (which only stops bleed damage or stabilize a dying creature, but it heals no hit points, DC 15), to help with long term stability (which improves the chance of recovering consciousness while stable, DC 15), to treat disease, or to treat drugs or poison. The last two give bonuses to the chance of making saving throws for disease, drugs, or poison and have a DC based on the disease, drug, or poison, but both also require a medkit. It is a gray area whether the medpatch eliminates the need for a medkit or not. RAW you need the medkit and a medpatch for the long term stability, treat disease, drugs, or poison aspects of the medicine skill.
So if you are not trained in medicine but you have a medpatch, you can attempt the listed medicine skill tasks as if you are trained and you get a +10 circumstance bonus toward making the DC of the roll.
If you are trained in medicine there is a little ambiguity about whether you get the +10 bonus when using the medpatch in conjunction with these various checks, but it seems reasonable that the bonus would apply since what helps the untrained person should work the same when applied by a trained person.
If you are trained in Medicine, it opens up the use of the Treat Deadly Wounds ability. This requires a both ranks in medicine skill and medical equipment. Let's say you have ranks in medicine but no equipment, then you can't Treat Deadly Wounds. Having a medpatch doesn't help since the medpatch does not list Treat Deadly Wounds as one of the medicine skill tasks you can attempt untrained. You need a medkit to treat deadly wounds and the medpatch doesn't help even if you have a medkit. Furthermore, it takes 1 minute and you can only use it once every 24 hours for a given patient. If you have sprayflesh, you can treat deadly wounds a second time in 24 hours.
Now add the feat Medical Expert. Getting the feat assumes you are trained in Medicine skill. "You can use the Medicine skill in conjunction with a medpatch or sprayflesh to treat deadly wounds as a full action.... When used in this way, the medpatch or sprayflesh does not perform any of its normal functions." To gain this benefit, you need two pieces of equipment: a medkit and either a medpatch or sprayflesh. But in this case, the medpatch does not give you any bonus nor does the sprayflesh allow you to do this if a patient has already received healing via the treat deadly wounds within the past 24 hours. The DC of the check remains 25 if using the basic medkit or 20 if using the advanced medkit. Used in this way, the time required is a full action.
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glad i found this thread! (great deduction @shantidas!)
so, i’m building a healer-as-secondary ability and wanted to see how it would look at 5th level, and with all the things mentioned above set up (feat, skill, equipment, etc.). the pc has +4 int bonus and +14 medicine bonus.
here’s the thing: with this build and best case scenario (i.e. result medicine roll exceeded 5 of dc 25 — which would be around, like what, 25% chance?), i can heal a fellow 5th companion a max of 9 hp (1 hp x 5 levels + my pc’s int mod), according to treat deadly wounds rule.
if the above is correct, would someone please convince me why i would want to spend 50 cr on a medpatch (one time use, that won’t allow +10 to med check) + 100 cr on a med kit (dc 25, which is no joke), plus picking up a medical expert feat, and plus boosting my medicine skill, to make sure i have a better chance of hitting dc 30, to heal max 9 hp...
as opposed to...
50 cr on a serum of healing mk1 for 1d8 healing? or maybe 2 for 2d8 for 100 cr?
outside of the feat benefit of taking only a full action yaddy yaddy ruling (doesn’t administering a serum take a standard anyway?), how would the first option outweigh the second so drastically and be deemed better?
i’m a bit new to starfinder so forgive me if i got something wrong, but what am i *missing*?!
Regular treat deadly wounds is decent free healing at higher levels, but medical expert is a bad feat. You don’t want to bother with in combat healing unless you’re a Mysric using high level heal spells.
The medical kits are not consumable. It is a one-time purchase (as long as you don't lose it somehow). So I typically don't take that cost into account when calculating HP healed per credit.
With just the medkit, you should have a reasonable chance of making the base DC, which will heal the 5 HP for free.
I don't know what GM would not allow the +10 to the check for using a medpatch. So that is 50 credits to have a good chance of adding another 4 HP.
Serums on the other hand, you have to roll how much healing they do.
So for free, you can have a HP recovery of min 0, typical 5, max 9.
For 50 credits you can have a HP recovery of unlikely/unlucky 0, normal of 5 - 9 HP.
Or for 50 credits (serum) you can have HP recovery of 1-8 flat probability.
For 100 credits (2 serums) you can have HP recovery of 2 - 16 HP, weighted towards the middle of 9.
So really any of these options are viable. And really they are mostly balanced with each other.
So do you want to play a master of mundane healing? If so, go for it. If that isn't really part of the character that you want to be, let everyone buy a handful of serums and call it good.
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@breithauptclan the +10 not allowed is from feat restriction, not gm’s ruling, and i already know the math for the cost and healing hp variables... not sure if you understood and answered my question.
you think the resources needed (medical expert feat, medicine skill boost, 150+ credits in equipment, and 5 levels of mystic — build in option 1) to maxing a healing of 9 hp is *balanced* with spending no resources except 50-100 cr for possible 2-16 hp (in option 2)?
if in combat and out of heal spells, i am just not seeing how it wouldn’t be better just to load up on a bunch of serums to treat deadly wounds, rather than building/allocating (at this point, useless) feat and (wasting) skill points to achieve such minimal gains. furthermore, the restrictions and high dc to fanagle for treating deadly wounds in option 1 has about 50% to work to gain 5hp, if lucky 9hp at 25%, whereas serum is 100% sure thing despite the variable amount of heal.
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Medical Expert can be done by any class, although the Envoy is the best since they can get their Skill Expertise with Medicine skill. The only other class I know of that can get a bonus to that skill is the Operative.
I agree that it doesn't compete with the Mystic for healing. What it does do is give other classes a way to heal people other than themselves. The Medical Expert allows you to do that slightly faster than normal and allows you to provide Long Term Care with just a medkit. Normally Long Term Care requires a MedBay or Medical Lab. With this feat, you can do it in the field.
I don't think that Medical Expert is a strong feat, but it does fit some builds.
Medical Expert can be done by any class, although the Envoy is the best since they can get their Skill Expertise with Medicine skill. The only other class I know of that can get a bonus to that skill is the Operative.
Mystics with the geneturge or healing connections, and crazy people who spend a Skill Focus feat on it.
Guess it depends how you value credits. If you want to buy a bunch of cool stuff (armor, weapons, upgrades) spending a lot of serums may be tough.
If you end up using healing 20 times during the course of an adventure, you can spend 20 x 2 x 50 = 2000 credits on serums. Or only spend 100 CR on the Medkit, with skill pt and feat investments (and a few medpatches). Anyway, the investment can save you a lot of CRs so you have more to spend on other stuff. Seems like a reasonable trade off.
Certainly spending 2000 CR is not everyone’s ideal way to deal with healing.
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@zaric you def have a point. no, it’s not the best way to do it, but i’m trying to weigh the benefits and want to feel convinced it’s worth it.
(not sure why you x2 cost of serums tho: 20 serums = 1000 cr?)
the way i see it though, a medpatch is also a one-time use, like the serum, to provide heal, but require *additional* resources (feat, skills, melkit, etc) to make it effective.
per use, it costs as much as a serum, but serum doesn’t require any other resources besides simply 50 cr. so yea, i’d rather spend credit on other stuff, but the way medpatch is ruled (cost per use) and how it isn’t effective on its own to treat deadly wounds like a serum is kinda weak. even with a medpatch plus medical expert feat, dc is still 25.
besides my still thinking it’s not worth it, i am also imagining a scenario: ally gets wounded during heated combat. healer (my build), healing abillities/powers spent, runs up, using full action (actually can’t run up to ally because it’s a full action, so healer has to already be adjacent), and pulls out medkit *and* medpatch (not even sure if there’s any actions left allowed to pull out all that stuf at this point). attempts a heal a wound (on ally who’s currently, say, in a sword fight!) with 50% chance of success on dc 25 for 5 hp. all in one round (lol). just all seems so silly and hard to feel immersive in role playing.
whereas another more “realistic” scenario: healer runs up next to ally and injects healing serum with a standard action.
either way, expending 50 cr. there is no getting around not expending the medpatch at 50 cr.
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I have an Envoy who will eventually get Skill Focus and Expertise in Medicine. We have a 6 person party and the person that was supposed to play a Mystic decided that an Operative was what was really needed instead.
So it falls on me to do the healing. I got lucky once during Reach of the Empire by rolling an 18 on the die for Treat Deadly Wounds and healed 1 hit point to the Solarian. Sigh. Luckily I'm also the quartermaster and simply allocated a couple thousand credits of the party's money to healing serums, medpatches, and nanopens.
Anyway, I don't think the medpatch's +10 applies to Treat Deadly Wounds when used with Medical Expert, because the feat says that none of the object's regular effects apply; it _just_ lets you do the Treat Deadly Wounds action quickly.
Frankly, this is not a great option at early levels when a Mk. 1 serum will do the trick without a hard skill check for the same cost, but is a reasonable value later when the ratio between a 1d8 serum and Level+Intelligence Bonus becomes a bit more skewed on the latter end.
There are a number of Envoy options that help with Treat Deadly Wounds, if I recall. Inspired Medic, Battlefield Medicine, Bedside Manner, and Surgeon all let you do more with it.
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@doctorzorkfield you’re right that the medpatch +10 bonus is nullified when used in conjunction with medical expert feat, which i understood, and was another reason why i think it’s weak and not worth it. the only “benefit” is being able to performing the skill “faster.” perhaps it could be worthwhile if that synergy brought the dc to 20, or allowed the medpatch to keep the +10, or some other benefit [shrug].
as you mentioned, and i’d agree with assessment: it sucks and is useless at lower level. with lower medicine skill bonus, hitting that dc 25 is not easy. i haven’t played enough to know exactly how it would be more useful/worthwhile at higher level. right now, i’m giving the feat a big fat thumb’s down (lol)
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@doctorzorkfield you’re right that the medpatch +10 bonus is nullified when used in conjunction with medical expert feat, which i understood, and was another reason why i think it’s weak and not worth it. the only “benefit” is being able to performing the skill “faster.” perhaps it could be worthwhile if that synergy brought the dc to 20, or allowed the medpatch to keep the +10, or some other benefit [shrug].
as you mentioned, and i’d agree with assessment: it sucks and is useless at lower level. with lower medicine skill bonus, hitting that dc 25 is not easy. i haven’t played enough to know exactly how it would be more useful/worthwhile at higher level. right now, i’m giving the feat a big fat thumb’s down (lol)
Well, let's look at how it scales up.
At 4th level, the minimum level that you can have an Advanced Medkit in Society play (without having it on a chronicle sheet), a typical doctor Envoy will have 4 skill ranks, +2 Intelligence bonus (assuming investment in Charisma and Dex as well), and a +3 class bonus, and +1d6 Expertise, for a total of +10-15 (there are of course floating bonuses like the Lashunta racial and Biotechnician, but let's discount those for now as optimizations). That is about a 60% chance of succeeding at a DC 20 action each time to heal 4 hit points and a 35% chance to heal 6 hit points. About an average of 2.75 points of healing per medpatch (.055 hit points per credit). That really isn't a good use of money, when a healing serum is a 100% chance of healing 4.5 hit points (.09 hit points per credit).
There's a big jump at 5th level. Now 5 ranks, +3 Intelligence bonus, and +1d6+1 Expertise for a total of +13-18 for a roughly 75% chance of healing 5 HP and a 50% chance of healing 8 hp. While there's still a chance you get nothing; let's call the average heal 5.25 (.105 hit points per credit). So, all other things being equal, an average doctor Envoy will start to pull ahead in value-per-50-credit-consumable at level 5.
At level 6 you can pick up Bedside Manner, which adds your Charisma bonus to your Treat Deadly Wounds hit points healed. I'm going to say that the typical Society Envoy starts with 16 Cha, buffed it to 18 at 5th level, and bought the Mk. 1 Personal Augmentation (probably can't afford the level 7 Mk 2 augment yet) for a total Cha bonus of +5. New total Medicine bonus of +14-19 with expertise for an 80% chance of healing 11 and a 55% chance of healing 14. Average heal of 10.45, now over double of what you get from a Mk. 1 healing serum and .209 hit points per credit. Now, by this point you're likely to be packing Mk. 2 healing serums that have an average heal of 13.5, but they cost 425 credits (an abysmal .038 credits per hit point).
Of course, if you're picking up Bedside Manner at 6th level, you're not getting Improved Get 'Em, which seems like folly, but it's a pretty solid level 8 choice.
So, overall, by the time you are level 5, any reasonable investment in medicine will render Medical Expert slightly better than a Mk. 1 healing serum (minus the action economy), and the economy only gets better from there (not to mention potentially free healing between encounters).
I have an Envoy who will eventually get Skill Focus and Expertise in Medicine.
Skill Focus doesn’t stack with Envoy Expertise. They both give an Insight bonus. Do one or the other, not both.
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Ah, this thread made me feel like posting my notes on my envoy medic.
Dr. DuQuesne
Gray Biotechnician Envoy 7
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 18
Non-medicine related healing:
Inspiring Boost recovers 18 stamina points, or 25 if I spend one resolve point.
Envoy improvisation: Quick Quaff gives an ally one extra standard action that can be used to pick a healing serum and use it.
Medicine checks
Skill expertise: 1d6+1 insight bonus to medicine checks. You can wait to see the result before adding the 1d6+1 or just re-roll 1d20 again (expertise talent: Inspired Medic).
Treat Deadly Wounds: DC 20 for regular healing or DC 25 to heal 3 extra hit points (advanced medkit); heals 1 hit point per level/CR of the creature + 4 (charisma bonus from envoy improvisation: Bedside Manner); also using a sprayflesh or medpatch expedites to 1 full action instead of 1 minute (medical expert feat); 1 extra treatment per day, DC 25 for regular healing, DC 30 to heal 3 extra hit points, takes 1 hour (expertise talent: Surgeon).
Treat Disease/Treat Drugs or Poison: +6 bonus to saving throws instead of +4, and each success counts as two successes towards curing the affliction (envoy improvisation: Bedside Manner).
Long-Term Care: You can use the advanced medkit to provide longterm care to one patient instead of a medical lab or medical bay (advanced medkit), and you can also use the Medicine skill to provide longterm care with just a medkit (Medical expert feat).
Right now the character has a medicine of +14. I’m looking into acquiring a physician drone, if it can Aid Another my medicine checks, and grab some more Nanite Hypopens.
Also considering a Subdermal Extractor and a bunch of Diagnostic Lozenges, but those are more for flavor than anything.
Skill focus for an envoy on an expertise skill is absolutely terrible. The consolation prize is once per day, rerolling the d6. Which you have to call in advance. Its objectively, mathematically, slightly more than a +1 to the check once per day.
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Skill focus for an envoy on an expertise skill is absolutely terrible. The consolation prize is once per day, rerolling the d6. Which you have to call in advance. Its objectively, mathematically, slightly more than a +1 to the check once per day.
It has use because if I choose to decline my expertise die to reroll my Medicine check with Inspired Medic, I still get +3 Insight bonus. With the Surgeon DC sneaking up to 30 for the extra HP, it is a valid option.
It isn't brain surgery.
Well. I suppose it could be.
Or just spend the resolve point
Or buy a six pack of healing serums
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Or just spend the resolve point
Or buy a six pack of healing serums
Resolve Point: rather keep those for stuff like Improved Get 'Em or, you know, not dying.
Healing Serums: by the time I can use RP on an Inspired Medic check, my healing will be around 18 per shot (going up to 21 per shot at level 10). I might not even hit that with a 1950 credit Mk. 3 serum.
Is it ideal play? Maybe not. But it is thematic for my character, and a choice that isn't taken without reason.
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good feedback and ideas!
i’m making a concept multi-class build, projecting it to 10 levels: envoy5 / mystic5.
these 2 classes have a mix of abilities / features that i think play up well with my concept: *very* loosely based on rocket raccoon from marvel’s guardians of the galaxy — have a knack for using computers and creating mechanical devices from piecemealing junk and parts. the added ability is healing but not being a full-time medic. so a chaotic neutral / good gregarious, fast-talking ysoki who bluffs her way out of situations or to get what she wants.
let me know what you think of these highlights — base stats, not accounting for any magic/enhacement/etc items:
- healing: high; social: high; knowledge: high; control: moderate; offense: low; defense: low
- ability scores: 10, 14, 15, 16, 18, 16
- main traits: expertise (1d6+1 to bluff +19, medicine +18, sense motives +17), certainty +2 (1/day)
- medicine abilities: quick quaff, surgeon, medical expert
- healing: channel 4d8 hp per rp (11 rp); healing touch 5 hp (1/day); medical expert 13 hp (assuming 10th level ally); life link 5 hp; inspiring boost 13 sp; mystic cure spell 1d8+wis hp; lesser remove condition spell
- debuff: clever feint (enemy flat-footed to party); force blast spell (enemy knocked prone on failed save)
- buff: supercharge weapon (feat: techno antic dabbler), life bubble spell, spider climb spell
- most knowledges (to identify enemy creatures) +13, certainty +2 (1/day)
- 13 languages
- tech skills: computer and engineering +18
the build *feels* solid on paper, but i haven’t played enough sf to know how it would play out, whether it might be too weak or too diluted/diversified at level 10. i don’t care to build min/max pcs, but maybe there are other mixes of abilities and such that could work even better together which strengthen the concept.