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Alright... that makes sense, I suppose. Makes it seem a little strange. PvP will be especially odd, or characters that are built as enemies by the gm using pc levels? Hmm
The first is quite intentional, in order to keep mind controlled PCs from leading to party wipes. The second is not supposed to happen in Starfinder, ever.
Also, for the record, your math is a little off. A 20th level Operative can grab Weapon Focus and get +26 to hit. Add in the -2 AC he can inflict automatically with Trick Attack and we're talking an effective +28.
Soldiers and Solarians can get +30 (a Soldier with Laser Accuracy can actually get +31).
Of course, AC maxes out around 42 for most people in Heavy Armor, too. Technically it maxes at 44/45 on a Vesk Guard Soldier with a Phase Shield and Armored Advantage.
Still the disparity isn't quite as bad as your original example makes it out to be.
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The second is not supposed to happen in Starfinder, ever.
Did they actually state that? If so, that's completely, absolutely, blazingly stupid and drastically limits the potential of the game.
How so?
You'll still be able to build enemies if you want to, and presumably there'll be ways to give NPCs class features from PC classes or something equivalent, gear the PCs could use and loot, and occasionally even have them tag along as cohorts.
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The second is not supposed to happen in Starfinder, ever.Did they actually state that? If so, that's completely, absolutely, blazingly stupid and drastically limits the potential of the game.
They did. And it really doesn't. Heck, a fair number of systems already do precisely this, and it's not actually a problem for most of them.
It can certainly be done badly (I think 4E did a poor job with this, for example), but having divergent PC and NPC rules is not at all unheard of in games. Indeed, it's quite common and not particularly limiting if done properly.
The intent is for NPCs to be able to acquire the vast majority of PC abilities, but it's seemingly gonna be done with Class Grafts, much as is done in the Simple Monster Creation system in Pathfinder Unchained. Which is quite workable even in Pathfinder, and much more so in a system built to operate in that fashion from the ground up.
So in our supposedly simplified game they're introducing something additional in order to complicate making enemies out of player races, which they're telling us we're not allowed to do anyway because badwrongfun. Gotcha.
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So in our supposedly simplified game they're introducing something additional in order to complicate making enemies out of player races, which they're telling us we're not allowed to do anyway because badwrongfun. Gotcha.
Wait, what? You're allowed to make enemies out of PC races. First Contact has Human Soldier enemies, for example.
And a simplified game using simplified enemy creation rules seems very consistent to me. And immensely time and effort saving as a GM.
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I loved 4E statblocks when GMing. A complete encounter with 3 kinds of monsters, including the full text of their special abilities, fit on one page!
I personally strongly disliked that particular implementation, but I'm liking Starfinder's so far, and that can easily fit two or three non-spellcaster enemies on a page.
I personally strongly disliked that particular implementation, but I'm liking Starfinder's so far, and that can easily fit two or three non-spellcaster enemies on a page.
What was there to dislike about 4E NPCs? Was it recharge? I quite liked recharge.
So in our supposedly simplified game they're introducing something additional in order to complicate making enemies out of player races, which they're telling us we're not allowed to do anyway because badwrongfun. Gotcha.Wait, what? You're allowed to make enemies out of PC races. First Contact has Human Soldier enemies, for example.
And a simplified game using simplified enemy creation rules seems very consistent to me. And immensely time and effort saving as a GM.
You said that they stated enemies with PC classes is never supposed to happen in Starfinder, and now you're saying they didn't.
Alright... that makes sense, I suppose. Makes it seem a little strange. PvP will be especially odd, or characters that are built as enemies by the gm using pc levels?The first is quite intentional, in order to keep mind controlled PCs from leading to party wipes. The second is not supposed to happen in Starfinder, ever.
Emphasis mine.
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You said that they stated enemies with PC classes is never supposed to happen in Starfinder, and now you're saying they didn't.
Ah! I see where the confusion comes in.
There will absolutely be Human Soldier enemies, and Ysoki Operatives, and Lashunta Envoys. Conceptually, any PC-type character you can make can also be made as an NPC.
What there will never be is an enemy who is a Ysoki Operative 3 built using the PC rules. All NPCs are intended to be built using the NPC rules, which are different.
The NPC rules will have room for all the same kinds of characters (as well as many more, like Demons), but they are not the same and will not result in characters with quite the same skill bonuses, to-hit bonus, AC or any of that.
And that's what I was saying. And was a relevant direct response to what I was responding to, since that was saying that two characters created via the PC rules fighting would be weird.
What was there to dislike about 4E NPCs? Was it recharge? I quite liked recharge.
I wasn't a huge fan of recharge, but it had a lot more to do with them not being able to actually approximate what a PC could do (and vice versa in some cases) with little real mechanical justification for why it worked that way.
To take Starfinder as an example, Starfinder has explicit mechanical reasons for simplified NPCs and asymmetrical treatment of PCs and NPCs. It serves a purpose, several of them actually, beyond simply making stat-blocks simple.
I never felt that this was the case in 4E. Nor was creating truly new monsters actually simpler (or at least nit never felt that way)...so if I wanted to create a Wizard NPC for the players to fight, it was almost as much work as making a Wizard PC, poorly approximated what such a PC could do, and felt unsatisfying.
Based on what we've got so far on Starfinder, a Starfinder Technomancer NPC will be able to do most of what a PC Technomancer could do, will be quicker to create by quite a bit, and should feel more satisfyingly complete once done.
Bloodrealm, you swapped player CLASSES for player RACES. Word substitution.
Deadman, how did you get those numbers for soldier and solarian? Weapon Focus and strength bonus?
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Bloodrealm, you swapped player CLASSES for player RACES. Word substitution.
Deadman, how did you get those numbers for soldier and solarian? Weapon Focus and strength bonus?
Yep. Or Dex bonus at range.
BAB 20 + Str or Dex 28 for a +9 + Weapon Focus for a +1.
Almost no Solarian will actually manage that, MAD as they are (though I'd expect +29 to be the norm), but those are the theoretical maximums at the moment.
Got it and thanks. An Exocortex Mechanic (Ranged) can manage a pretty respectable attack bonus of 30 with the same resources against a tracked foe, while also using Miracle Worker to give a +2 enhancement bonus to attack/damage for 1 minute. That can up it to 32 for several combats a day, depending on level. I wasn't sure if the Solarian or Soldier had class specific bonuses being counted in that - haven't looked at them that closely. Against the AC of the OP operative, at best a Mechanic could hit on a 8 or better. Pretty sure the operative gets immunity to being flat-footed, but against anyone else that's a possible -2 to AC.
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Got it and thanks. An Exocortex Mechanic (Ranged) can manage a pretty respectable attack bonus of 30 with the same resources against a tracked foe, while also using Miracle Worker to give a +2 enhancement bonus to attack/damage for 1 minute. That can up it to 32 for several combats a day, depending on level. I wasn't sure if the Solarian or Soldier had class specific bonuses being counted in that - haven't looked at them that closely. Against the AC of the OP operative, at best a Mechanic could hit on a 8 or better. Pretty sure the operative gets immunity to being flat-footed, but against anyone else that's a possible -2 to AC.
The big advantages of Soldier and Solarian in combat at high levels are their third attack and (to a lesser degree) in-class damage bonuses. People might well get better to-hit on specific attacks, but nobody can come close to those two on DPR.