Bugbear PCs


Rules Questions


Is there a reason goblins and hobgoblins are playable races, but not bugbears? Seems odd to have only two of the three goblinoid races available.


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In general I'd say they are too powerful and have racial hd, so they won't work as a standard race.

Dark Archive

Yeah, same reason for Gnolls and Lizardfolk not being playable. Those racial HD are annoying and need to go away first. The stats might also be a little 'too good,' but not worse than the Drow Noble.

Reincarnate seems to be the only way to get away with a Bugbear PC, officially. :)


Set wrote:

Yeah, same reason for Gnolls and Lizardfolk not being playable. Those racial HD are annoying and need to go away first. The stats might also be a little 'too good,' but not worse than the Drow Noble.

Reincarnate seems to be the only way to get away with a Bugbear PC, officially. :)

except there are playable gnoll and lizard folk races

Grand Lodge

Lady-J wrote:
Set wrote:

Yeah, same reason for Gnolls and Lizardfolk not being playable. Those racial HD are annoying and need to go away first. The stats might also be a little 'too good,' but not worse than the Drow Noble.

Reincarnate seems to be the only way to get away with a Bugbear PC, officially. :)

except there are playable gnoll and lizard folk races

iirc those are only unofficially in the example portion of the race builder section of the ARG.


As poor as the race builder is, you might benefit from looking at 3.5's Savage Species as a starting place for making a playable Bugbear.
It's not any better than the race builder so it shouldn't be considered a good alternative without A LOT of scrutiny.

Scarab Sages

ChucklesMcTruck wrote:
Is there a reason goblins and hobgoblins are playable races, but not bugbears? Seems odd to have only two of the three goblinoid races available.

You could play one, just start at 4th level with 1 class level and your 3 racial HD.

If I had to guess why they aren't a PC race, I suspect it has to do with their diet. Says humans are their favorite food. Difficult to have one in a normal party, since humans are supposed to be the most common race. Seems like you'd invite trouble just by traveling with a bugbear.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
ChucklesMcTruck wrote:
Is there a reason goblins and hobgoblins are playable races, but not bugbears? Seems odd to have only two of the three goblinoid races available.

You could play one, just start at 4th level with 1 class level and your 3 racial HD.

If I had to guess why they aren't a PC race, I suspect it has to do with their diet. Says humans are their favorite food. Difficult to have one in a normal party, since humans are supposed to be the most common race. Seems like you'd invite trouble just by traveling with a bugbear.

bug bears are only cr 2 so it would be lvl 3 with 1 class lvl or lvl 4 with 2 class lvls


Set wrote:
Reincarnate seems to be the only way to get away with a Bugbear PC, officially. :)

This happened to my wife's human wizard in a 3.5 game: she rolled that 01, and came back as a bugbear (and through another random roll, male). As a wizard, the Str change never had any appreciable effect, but the Con boost saved her character's butt more than a few times.

Because reincarnate leaves your mental stats unchanged, she was suddenly the smartest bugbear to have ever lived, and the greatest bugbear wizard, too (and later in the campaign, the first-ever archmage of that race). The DM got very creative in working out the consequences of that: Hruggek, god of the bugbears, tried everything he could to cajole and bribe her character into siring a new, improved bugbear race, but the mage was having nothing to do with it.


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Bugbear
Medium Humanoid (Goblinoid), Speed 30ft
+4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha
Senses: Darkvision 60ft, Scent
+3 natural armor
Skill bonuses: Intimidate +4, Stealth +4
Languages: Common, Goblin
Race Points: About 22?

This is consistent with the abilities of the bugbear in the Bestiary and with the bonuses you get for reincarnating as one. A bit overpowered for a PC race - though you could easily tone it down a bit.

Dark Archive

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Matthew Downie wrote:

Bugbear

Medium Humanoid (Goblinoid), Speed 30ft
+4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha
Senses: Darkvision 60ft, Scent
+3 natural armor
Skill bonuses: Intimidate +4, Stealth +4
Languages: Common, Goblin
Race Points: About 22?

This is consistent with the abilities of the bugbear in the Bestiary and with the bonuses you get for reincarnating as one. A bit overpowered for a PC race - though you could easily tone it down a bit.

This seems like a great start.

The first change I'd suggest is to reduce the Natural Armor bonus to +1.

Lizardfolk get a +5, as 'monsters,' but are recommended to only have +2 as a PC race, so I'd use that as precedent / guidance to bring the +3 down to a +1.

Scent is also rare for PC races, and probably should be gated off as something that can be purchased with a feat, with some sort of 'lesser scent' racial property (or just a bonus to Perception checks in which scent could play a factor) replacing it until then.

Scarab Sages

Lady-J wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
ChucklesMcTruck wrote:
Is there a reason goblins and hobgoblins are playable races, but not bugbears? Seems odd to have only two of the three goblinoid races available.

You could play one, just start at 4th level with 1 class level and your 3 racial HD.

If I had to guess why they aren't a PC race, I suspect it has to do with their diet. Says humans are their favorite food. Difficult to have one in a normal party, since humans are supposed to be the most common race. Seems like you'd invite trouble just by traveling with a bugbear.

bug bears are only cr 2 so it would be lvl 3 with 1 class lvl or lvl 4 with 2 class lvls

They are CR 2, but they have 3 racial HD.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
ChucklesMcTruck wrote:
Is there a reason goblins and hobgoblins are playable races, but not bugbears? Seems odd to have only two of the three goblinoid races available.

You could play one, just start at 4th level with 1 class level and your 3 racial HD.

If I had to guess why they aren't a PC race, I suspect it has to do with their diet. Says humans are their favorite food. Difficult to have one in a normal party, since humans are supposed to be the most common race. Seems like you'd invite trouble just by traveling with a bugbear.

bug bears are only cr 2 so it would be lvl 3 with 1 class lvl or lvl 4 with 2 class lvls
They are CR 2, but they have 3 racial HD.

yes and racial hit die mean jack all in pathfinder

There are a number of monsters in this book that do not possess racial Hit Dice. Such creatures are the best options for player characters, but a few of them are so powerful that they count as having 1 class level, even without a racial Hit Die. Such characters should only be allowed in a group that is 2nd-level or higher.

For monsters with racial Hit Dice, the best way to allow monster PCs is to pick a CR and allow all of the players to make characters using monsters of that CR. Treat the monster's CR as its total class levels and allow the characters to multiclass into the core classes. Do not advance such monsters by adding Hit Dice. Monster PCs should only advance through classes.

If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian.

Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.

Scarab Sages

Lady-J wrote:
yes and racial hit die mean jack all in pathfinder

Racial HD are equal to class levels for the purposes of determining the total character level or for spells that affect opponents based on their total hit dice (like color spray and daze). Suggesting that racial HD are meaningless will result in some interesting balance issues if you do not consider them equal to character levels when allowing players to create characters.

I do agree that the Bugbear is a weak race option and that despite 3 racial HD, it has only 2 CR to reflect this. But I don't think this means you should treat a Bugbear with 1 Barbarian Level as if it were a 3rd level character creature that has 4 Hit Dice. And a PC version of a Bugbear will be an improved Bugbear anyway.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
yes and racial hit die mean jack all in pathfinder

Racial HD are equal to class levels for the purposes of determining the total character level or for spells that affect opponents based on their total hit dice (like color spray and daze). Suggesting that racial HD are meaningless will result in some interesting balance issues if you do not consider them equal to character levels when allowing players to create characters.

I do agree that the Bugbear is a weak race option and that despite 3 racial HD, it has only 2 CR to reflect this. But I don't think this means you should treat a Bugbear with 1 Barbarian Level as if it were a 3rd level character creature that has 4 Hit Dice. And a PC version of a Bugbear will be an improved Bugbear anyway.

Racial hit dice aren't really equal to a class level (though they are treated that way for certain things). That is why Pathfinder changed how it is done for PC monsters.

Quote:

For monsters with racial Hit Dice, the best way to allow monster PCs is to pick a CR and allow all of the players to make characters using monsters of that CR. Treat the monster's CR as its total class levels and allow the characters to multiclass into the core classes. Do not advance such monsters by adding Hit Dice. Monster PCs should only advance through classes.

If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian.

Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.

A monsters hit die has nothing to do with it in Pathfinder. It is based on CR. Regardless of what you think, a bugbear with 1 level of barbarian is equivalent to a 3rd level PC as far as the rules are concerned and is suitable to be included in a party with other 3rd level characters.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
yes and racial hit die mean jack all in pathfinder

Racial HD are equal to class levels for the purposes of determining the total character level or for spells that affect opponents based on their total hit dice (like color spray and daze). Suggesting that racial HD are meaningless will result in some interesting balance issues if you do not consider them equal to character levels when allowing players to create characters.

I do agree that the Bugbear is a weak race option and that despite 3 racial HD, it has only 2 CR to reflect this. But I don't think this means you should treat a Bugbear with 1 Barbarian Level as if it were a 3rd level character creature that has 4 Hit Dice. And a PC version of a Bugbear will be an improved Bugbear anyway.

racial hit die being equal to character lvl thing is a 3.5 thing not a pathfinder thing something that is cr 4 with 7 racial hit die and 2 class hit die is character lvl 6 in pathfinder

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