Problem: Shields aren't that great.
Problem 1: Between armor check penalty, a flat +1 or +2 shield bonus to AC (without magical enhancement) unless you burn a feat on shield focus (+1 to the AC bonus your shield provides).
Problem 2: Shields compete with the ability to use a 2-handed weapon, which will have higher raw damage dice and that x1.5 STR mod to damage.
Problem 3: Shields are both treated as armor and/or weapons arbitrarily, and there's no benefit to shields of a special material except mithral (to reduce ACP).
Tentative solution to problems 1 and 2:
Would adding 1/2 STR modifier (rounded down) to the shield bonus to AC that shields provide sweeten the option? That 1-2 flat bonus to AC just feels a bit wrong in comparison with the scaling 1.5 STR modifier bonus to damage that 2-handed weapon-users get. Or perhaps adding 1/2 STR modifier OR the base AC bonus of the shield (1 for light, 2 for heavy), whichever is greater?
I could be completely wrong here, and it could be that the potential +5 magical enhancement bonus in addition to the +2 of a heavy shield is sufficient. I was thinking that it'd be nice crunch AND fluff if shields scaled off of the abilities of the user rather than their money/amount of magical enhancement, reflecting the concept that a skilled combatant could use a shield more effectively than a commoner.
problem was solved:
for melee 2 handed tank : pick a heavy shield, get shild focus and then take shield brace. make sure te shield doesnt have ac panilty via mithril or darkwood. also i recomand the polearm -nodachi .
its a martial weapon 2 handed deal 1d10 and got crit range of 18-20. by anything it is far batter then a falchian and unless you play a non martial half orc and get falchian for free. there is raelly no reason ANYONE would pick a falchian instead of a nodachi.
it cost 15 gp less. whiegh the same and have brace weapon ability which the falchian lack.
also it's traditinly the longeast sword ever.(some are ment to be wielded by two figters agasint horse riders.crazy tings the japanize think off ;)
for 1 handed fighting,like swashbuckler, magus, a caster or even a monk (but then you need to grab buckler proficncy feat as well.for the sield focus feat). take a buckler. shield focus(buckler) and grab unhindering shield
enjoy.
Problem 1: Between armor check penalty, a flat +1 or +2 shield bonus to AC (without magical enhancement) unless you burn a feat on shield focus (+1 to the AC bonus your shield provides).
Costs for "the next +1" tend to be exponential, not linear. Having an extra means available at a lower cost is how you build a high AC character while staying within WBL.
Shields are the cheapest means to get "the next +1".
Problem 2: Shields compete with the ability to use a 2-handed weapon, which will have higher raw damage dice and that x1.5 STR mod to damage.
Shield Brace + Nodachi
Problem 1: Between armor check penalty, a flat +1 or +2 shield bonus to AC (without magical enhancement) unless you burn a feat on shield focus (+1 to the AC bonus your shield provides).
Problem 2: Shields compete with the ability to use a 2-handed weapon, which will have higher raw damage dice and that x1.5 STR mod to damage.
Problem 3: Shields are both treated as armor and/or weapons arbitrarily, and there's no benefit to shields of a special material except mithral (to reduce ACP).
If these are the only problems with shields, I disagree. Shields are very powerful in one simple way: You can get +7 to AC. When monsters need a 15 on the dice to hit you in the first place, +7 is a big boon. It can negate a monster's ability to use power attack. It can make it so that a monster (likely) doesn't get rend. If you take the right combination of feats to go along with high AC and/or use tactics to make sure the tank is most often the one facing monsters, you can easily trivialize a large number of encounters simply by using a shield.
Now it's quite possible shields are underwhelming for a number of other reasons. I just don't think the above 3 "problems" outweigh a shield's innate benefits.
It's a good idea, and might work with custom AC rules, but as plug and play, it's too much.
I have been playing a Fighter/Slayer, and took the bastard sword, with the intention of using the shield only when scary things were hitting me. Turns out, between Weapon Training, Power Attack, and Specialization, the damage feels pretty good with one hand. Better than I thought it would (I love me some two-handed Power Attack), and after a nasty fight at mid-level, the AC is totally worth it. I did take Shield Focus, and use a Heavy shield; and at 18th level, his +5 shield is 8 places of AC. But for most of his career, he has had a +2 shield, that's +5 AC for like 10 levels, not bad.
Also don't forget the Phalanx archetype from APG.
While I otherwise agree with a lot of your points, the Weapon Training class feature was buffed massively in the Weapon Master's Handbook, and archetypes that trade it away have basically all been invalidated. You're just giving up way too much for Phalanx Fighter and other archetypes that give up weapon training to be a serious option anymore.
The problem with shields isn't that they're bad, it's that the primary role of fighter-type characters is to deal damage. Defense is a secondary concern after offensive, and unless you have surplus damage output this makes it very hard to justify a trade of offense for defense. It's a common beginner mistake that can result in anemic and underperforming characters. If you do have a build that has the damage output to afford that trade, shields can give you a powerful edge defensively.
I'd just bump the AC benefit up by 1 rather than relating it to Str. Shields are OK if you TWF with spikes and all that but otherwise just don't match real life (not that PF is realistic...) and are a poor match against just doing more damage.
Sure, with a +5 large shield you can get +7 AC, but that's 25000gp that you're not going to have spare until at least 12th level and you'd rather spend on a better cloak or ring or amulet. And at very high levels AC is not your highest priority; saves are. Even if you do have a +5 shield, another +1 isn't going to make much difference.
The other thing you could do is add shield bonuses onto appropriate reflex saves (eg fireball but not falling into a pit).
Shields are fine.
I think people don't often think statistically what a shield does. +2 (very easy to get) sounds unimpressive; but it's a huge deal depending on your opponent's chance to hit:
AC 16 against a +0? 20% chance to hit
AC 18? 10%
Now; when you think about it it's not a big deal. But if it's 8 gobbos attacking you; the +2 gives you a 100% survivability upgrade. Your two-hander doesn't do anything there that your one-hander doesn't.
Of course there's the side of it you're considering it from:
AC 16 against a +11: 75% chance to hit
AC 18? 65% chance to hit
This is fairly mediocre, sure. But that's because your shield isn't going to do much against a giant weapon. Think of it a bit like dark souls: When you fight the Capra demon (unless you're overleveled) you can't block him or you'll just get stunned and killed. You can block all kinds of other stuff though. The little guys are what the shield is for, the big guys are not.
the Weapon Training class feature was buffed massively in the Weapon Master's Handbook, and archetypes that trade it away have basically all been invalidated.
Only if you allow the Weapon Master's Handbook in your games. I don't. Mostly because I don't think Fighters need to be better at "killing things" and that straight Core Rulebook fighters kill things just fine.
The problem with shields isn't that they're bad, it's that the primary role of fighter-type characters is to deal damage.
I disagree pretty strongly. The barbarian's primary role is to deal damage. That is literally all they can do. Fighters have very strong defensive options and can really trivialise combats by focusing on those options.
It's a common beginner mistake [to sacrifice offense for defense] that can result in anemic and underperforming characters.
Unless you're playing in a party that refuses to buff the party with their spells or if you play with a 15 minute work day, fighters that concentrate on defensive options work just fine and have little to no issue in significantly contributing in combat (unless you're playing on flat, featureless terrain 24/7).
My friends and I have been going through RotRL campaign and thoroughly enjoying it. I'm writing from the admittedly limited perspective of a warder from Dreamscarred Press' Path of War, which has its own options . At level 13 I have an AC of 36 (5 of that is the shield), and bosses have around +28-34 to hit. However, a lot of the threats at our level seem to come from things that don't target AC, but saves.
We have a sorcerer who can distribute the Shield spell (+4 bonus to AC, no ACP, doesn't take a hand, protects against magic missile) to anyone. He has plenty of uses to cover the normal 3-4 encounters per day, and so right off the bat a physical shield is 2 AC behind, has an ACP and actually costs money. While a shield can eventually have a +5 bonus applied to it, for most of a campaign it'll be unenchanted or up to a +3, so that's a +2 to +5 AC bonus. While shields can be used offensively, there isn't really a reason to, and you need the improved shield bash feat to keep the shield bonus to AC.
We have a sorcerer who can distribute the Shield spell ...
How does the sorcerer distribute a personal spell?
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Shields aren't supposed to be as good in the game as they are in real life. The bonus to AC granted by real-life shields starts at about +10 for a garbage can lid, and goes up from there.
-- But then we'd be playing a game in which 95% of melee attacks are whiffs and every encounter takes two hours.
We have a sorcerer who can distribute the Shield spell ...How does the sorcerer distribute a personal spell?
By having PCs as familiars... it's an intensive feat chain, but worth it.
Not a fan of using Str to get an AC boost.
Fighters currently have a choice between Str for damage or Dex for AC...this would make Str a no-brainer, giving them benefits for both for high Str.
What about Str mod as DR? It's thematic and balances out the loss of 2WF or 2HF
By having PCs as familiars... it's an intensive feat chain, but worth it.We have a sorcerer who can distribute the Shield spell ...How does the sorcerer distribute a personal spell?
That is an interesting chain I'd like to see.
That is an interesting chain I'd like to see.By having PCs as familiars... it's an intensive feat chain, but worth it.We have a sorcerer who can distribute the Shield spell ...How does the sorcerer distribute a personal spell?
It's an unfortunate joke...
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...doesn't change the fact it would be awesome.
We have a sorcerer who can distribute the Shield spell ...How does the sorcerer distribute a personal spell?
That's a very, very, very good question. I just whack stuff until it stops moving.
Not a fan of using Str to get an AC boost.
Fighters currently have a choice between Str for damage or Dex for AC...this would make Str a no-brainer, giving them benefits for both for high Str.
Well, it would be reduced, since my proposal would be to get a fraction of STR added to your shield bonus (which is bypassed by touch attacks anyway), not the full amount. By the same token, a DEX-based character gets full DEX to AC as long as they're not flat-footed, to-hit with light weapons using weapon finesse, to damage (with caveats) using slashing grace. DEX also applies to 6 skills as opposed to STR's 2 (although swim and climb are pretty important), REF saves, applied equally with STR to CMD, and DEX builds almost always use mithral chain shirt which has no Armor Check Penalty, while builds with other armor types can get a significant ACP until they get mithral everything. For any martial class that can get damage types not based on STR, DEX is 'a no-brainer'.
Also don't forget the Phalanx archetype from APG.While I otherwise agree with a lot of your points, the Weapon Training class feature was buffed massively in the Weapon Master's Handbook, and archetypes that trade it away have basically all been invalidated. You're just giving up way too much for Phalanx Fighter and other archetypes that give up weapon training to be a serious option anymore.
The problem with shields isn't that they're bad, it's that the primary role of fighter-type characters is to deal damage. Defense is a secondary concern after offensive, and unless you have surplus damage output this makes it very hard to justify a trade of offense for defense. It's a common beginner mistake that can result in anemic and underperforming characters. If you do have a build that has the damage output to afford that trade, shields can give you a powerful edge defensively.
Having both high AC and high DPR will break many encounters far more reliably than high DPR alone.
The fighter can do both with the right sword & board build.
Not a fan of using Str to get an AC boost.
Fighters currently have a choice between Str for damage or Dex for AC...this would make Str a no-brainer, giving them benefits for both for high Str.
Fighters currently have Trained Grace, which allows for both.
A TWF fighter with Trained Grace, Focus Weapon, and Gloves of Dueling will deal significantly more damage with a pair of Kukri than a fighter focusing on a nodachi or earthbreaker.
If he hits, with the two-weapon fighting penalties. For a while Power Attack carries the same penalty, but then there's the feat that removes the penalty from your first attack too.
Furious Focus is a trap for most fighters because their to hit bonus will often exceed the AC they're facing once of a high enough level. It's good for low level fighters (and be auto replaced) and other (typically lower BAB) classes.
If he hits, with the two-weapon fighting penalties. For a while Power Attack carries the same penalty, but then there's the feat that removes the penalty from your first attack too.
Trust me, I've run the DPR numbers on quite a few builds to find the most effective.
Natural Attacks > TWF > THF
Sword & Board effectively no longer exists as a separate build with the introduction of Shield Brace. THF is now the lowest DPR, highest AC build for a fighter.
The bonuses that a shield provides feel a little lackluster at higher levels (10+), which is what prompted the creation of this thread. I haven't crunched any numbers and only have the narrow experience of playing a third party shield-based class, so I was curious what the community had to say.
Shields provide no bonuses to anything other than AC. If an enemy relies primarily on rays, breath attacks, gaze attacks, spells of any kind, touch attacks, or grapples/combat maneuvers of any kind a shield provides no benefit, and higher CR enemies often use all of the above. If the enemy has such a high to-hit that the shield rarely prevents them from hitting you, it's also pointless.
Shield bashing without 3rd party content seems pretty terrible.
As someone pointed out, +7 to AC is pretty high...but when you factor in other gear that you could have at lvl 20: +5 full plate, +5 amulet of natural armor, +5 ring of protection and the base 10 AC, a DEX mod of 1-2 and possibly haste, maybe the dodge feat, blur/displacement (total of 36-38 AC with 25-50% miss chance) it's not THAT significant, even if CR 19-20 creatures attempt to attack, rather than cast spells or use abilities.
I've always preferred shields as offering a stackable source of DR or situational bonus to a save. The concept of a shield is more in line with soaking dmg than "dodging" it.
I've always preferred shields as offering a stackable source of DR or situational bonus to a save. The concept of a shield is more in line with soaking dmg than "dodging" it.
I agree. Providing a bonus to REF saves would be nice, to embody the fantasy of a shield-user bracing behind his/her shield against an explosion or dragon's breath attack. Oddly, even though adamantine armor gives DR, the rules specifically state that adamantine shields cannot provide DR, perhaps because it would stack with adamantine armor and give you a whopping (sarcasm) DR 6/-. Path of War has the Martial Power feat, which gives temp HP per round at the same to-hit penalty as Power Attack and increases it by 50% for shield users. That's about the best system I've seen so far.
Because this is homebrew, I would say you are within your perview to conveniently overlook that one line that could potentially solve your issue.
I also limit my barbarians to d10 HD because they have class features that increase their Con, and have built in DR as a class feature. With that in mind, Barbies with adamantine breastplates and shields are still absolutely capable of fulfilling their role because of the DR stacking. The situational ref bonus helps everyone as well. I will say this though, I would limit magical bonuses on shields to effects, not +X to AC.
Play with it, find a balance, and rock it.
Shields provide no bonuses to anything other than AC. If an enemy relies primarily on rays, breath attacks, gaze attacks, spells of any kind, touch attacks, or grapples/combat maneuvers of any kind a shield provides no benefit, and higher CR enemies often use all of the above. If the enemy has such a high to-hit that the shield rarely prevents them from hitting you, it's also pointless.
At higher level:
As for AC, A THF with shield brace can eventually reach a 60+ AC. For comparison, Cthulhu only has a +42 to-hit bonus. The Tarrasque and great red wyrms only have a +37 to-hit-bonus. (Fighters can use up to +7 dex mod to AC in full plate, without special materials. Insight bonus to AC, etc.)
As someone pointed out, +7 to AC is pretty high...but when you factor in other gear that you could have at lvl 20: +5 full plate, +5 amulet of natural armor, +5 ring of protection and the base 10 AC, a DEX mod of 1-2 and possibly haste, maybe the dodge feat, blur/displacement (total of 36-38 AC with 25-50% miss chance) it's not THAT significant, even if CR 19-20 creatures attempt to attack, rather than cast spells or use abilities.
Using your numbers and assuming an AC of 38 without a shield.
Adding a +5 heavy steel shield and shield focus results in red dragons hit rate dropping from 95% to 55%
That is a > 40% reduction in damage taken.
With a slightly more robust investment in AC, that dragon is only hitting on natural 20's.
I think you have a really good argument here and I will concede the point. I think my issue is that my group doesn't have weapon/armor master's handbooks, which contain a lot of your solutions. My Path of War warder has been getting by quite well using stances and counters, but as I was using those to survive encounters it got me wondering how a 1st party-only character would fare. I suppose those splatbooks really are nearly a necessity if one wanted to go that route. Thanks for the pointers!
I have been using a house rule for some time now that effectively bumps the AC of the shield up as it increases in size. The bump just makes the AC bit better but at higher levels the shield has more of an impact in protecting the player when you apply shield feats.
Buckler, Klar, Madu +1.
Light Shield +2
Heavy Shield +3
Tower Shield +5
We have played around using a DR as well but it has not been something we have used in campaign or playtested yet.
We talked about doing DR 1/- for light shield, DR 2/- for heavy shield, and DR 3/- for tower shield. As long as you can use the shield the DR is in use. If flat-footed or touch attack the DR does not apply.
This is just a simple solution nothing fancy.
SD
I wrote an article on an idea I had for adjusting shields to be more useful back about a year ago. We still use this technique at our gaming table even now, although we are certainly open to new ideas on how to make better use of them.
link: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tzr9?How-to-make-shields-useful-finally#1
If there's a problem it might be that the +1 or +2 seems insignificant to many players at lower levels. Once you've got +4 and +5 shields they make a pretty noticeable difference, especially if you have some other ways to avoid being hit (say Mirror Image)
If you're using a shield and one-handed weapon it can help to have some ways to boost damage, but the biggest problem my shield focused PCs have faced over the years wasn't with damage output but accusations that their AC was "too high".
There are tons of ways of over coming high AC however. Things like dousing them in oil and setting them on fire come quickly to mind. Of course tactics like this cease to work at all past about 10th level when most PC's are immune to damn nearly everything. At which point the DM has to really start thinking more creatively about how to challenge the party.