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You are the one making up rules and restrictions that are in no way shape or form in the class or archetype. So you might want to hold off on accusing people of not reading since absolutely nothing in the archetype says they don't know how to reload or can't reload while Raging.Try reading my posts. I was suggesting the intention of the class, not debating the rules. For rules, I've already said
Intentions aside, RAW you can certainly reload a weapon while raging.
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Thank you all for your input. Even if we still have some disagreement, the content of your arguments has been helpful.
My conclusion:
The rules state that spell-casting requires concentration. The rules do not state that reloading a gun requires concentration. Reloading also does not count as a dexterity based skill because there is never a check. A Pathfinder character can therefore reload a gun while raging.
I agree that you and I would need to concentrate to reload an early firearm in real life, but we aren't battle-hardened firearm experts. Experts have enough muscle memory to make reloading second nature. This is also Pathfinder. In real life, nobody can cast fireball.
If your GM goes by RAW you'll have a chance if by RAI, maybe not
Role: Barbarians excel in combat, possessing the martial prowess and fortitude to take on foes seemingly far superior to themselves. With rage granting them boldness and daring beyond that of most other warriors, barbarians charge furiously into battle and ruin all who would stand in their way.
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I feel like a barbarian with a gun is a bit of an oxymoron. It kind of makes since to me on the crossbow point. "lousy stupid thing crank faster! ARGH" *smashes crossbow over enemies head instead*
I'm generally opposed to the idea of a barbarian loading a musket while raging but it don't look like RAW specifically says they can't.
(I had thought they just didn't use range weapons at all aside from throwing and bows while raging.)
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You are the one making up rules and restrictions that are in no way shape or form in the class or archetype. So you might want to hold off on accusing people of not reading since absolutely nothing in the archetype says they don't know how to reload or can't reload while Raging.Try reading my posts. I was suggesting the intention of the class, not debating the rules. For rules, I've already saidIntentions aside, RAW you can certainly reload a weapon while raging.
I did read your posts, so stop claiming I'm not reading them or the class and archetypes just because you don't agree with the evidence I'm providing that contradicts your claim that the class is intended to work the way you are positing.
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I feel like a barbarian with a gun is a bit of an oxymoron. It kind of makes since to me on the crossbow point. "lousy stupid thing crank faster! ARGH" *smashes crossbow over enemies head instead*
I'm generally opposed to the idea of a barbarian loading a musket while raging but I don't look like RAW specifically says they can't.
(I had thought they just didn't use range weapons at all aside from throwing and bows while raging.)
Curious, are you also opposed to them drawing and switching weapons, equipping shields, and drinking potions while raging?
Curious, are you also opposed to them drawing and switching weapons, equipping shields, and drinking potions while raging?I feel like a barbarian with a gun is a bit of an oxymoron. It kind of makes since to me on the crossbow point. "lousy stupid thing crank faster! ARGH" *smashes crossbow over enemies head instead*
I'm generally opposed to the idea of a barbarian loading a musket while raging but I don't look like RAW specifically says they can't.
(I had thought they just didn't use range weapons at all aside from throwing and bows while raging.)
Drawing a new weapon (as long as it its not in a bag of holding or something.) no problem.
Hmm equipping a shield after raging yeah Kind of unless their just reaching for something to bludgeon someone with. I probably wouldn't call my player out on it.
Drinking a potion I'm heavily leaning towards No on that one too.
Mind you I wouldn't tell my players they can't but it does seem somehow wrong to me.
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Curious, are you also opposed to them drawing and switching weapons, equipping shields, and drinking potions while raging?I feel like a barbarian with a gun is a bit of an oxymoron. It kind of makes since to me on the crossbow point. "lousy stupid thing crank faster! ARGH" *smashes crossbow over enemies head instead*
I'm generally opposed to the idea of a barbarian loading a musket while raging but I don't look like RAW specifically says they can't.
(I had thought they just didn't use range weapons at all aside from throwing and bows while raging.)
Drawing a new weapon (as long as it its not in a bag of holding or something.) no problem.
Hmm equipping a shield after raging yeah Kind of unless their just reaching for something to bludgeon someone with. I probably wouldn't call my player out on it.
Drinking a potion I'm heavily leaning towards No on that one too.
Mind you I wouldn't tell my players they can't but it does seem somehow wrong to me.
As my previous posts in here show I obviously disagree, but okies, thank you for elaborating.
I guess we are imagining rage differently. I guess its fair to say experience of emotion is varied enough to warrant the discrepancy.
I once upon a time had semi-severe anger issues that I worked very hard to rid myself of. I think about how I felt then and can't imagine myself thinking to grab a shield for protection or a potion to heal just seeing red. whether It hurts me or not mattered very little to me in that state of mind. Definitely couldn't imagine loading a musket or winding a crossbow in that mind set.
Hmm, true, but then, rage and anger tend to work differently when you have something to focus them on.
See the cold rage I kind of think of as the calm stance unchained gets. Similar to that to represent that kind of control.
I do see what your saying though Channel the emotion and kind of ride it out. Use the energy and give it purpose. Hmm I'd have to put some thought into it.
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Hmm, true, but then, rage and anger tend to work differently when you have something to focus them on.See the cold rage I kind of think of as the calm stance unchained gets. Similar to that to represent that kind of control.
I do see what your saying though Channel the emotion and kind of ride it out. Use the energy and give it purpose. Hmm I'd have to put some thought into it.
I will point out that the rages of Chained and Unchained Barbarians are exactly the same in the flavor department, none of that wording was changed.
*nods*
Chained or Unchained, whether the player wants the Rage to be screaming ferocity or a cold tranquil fury is up to them.
Hmm I feel like tranquil fury should be a feat. Seems like something that should be learned.
I have a hard time calling fury tranquil heh.
Reading over rage again I guess it is pretty vague on descriptions of it.
part of my mind set may be carry over from different editions of dnd I'm pretty sure at some point it was described as foaming at the mouth berserking etc. etc.
Heck That what I needed to learn to do... Eh still probably bad for your blood pressure etc.
I see what your saying. Still feels like that should of been or could of been a cool rage power option or something instead of assumed.
Still probably not how I'll play my barbs, but like I said I won't be opposed to others doing it that way.
I always think of Sláine from 2000AD when thinking Barbarian rage, or the numerous accounts of Viking berserkers or Indonesian Amoks. All of whom (to me) have more similarity to the PFRPG idea than 'Tranquil Fury' if you read the blurb in the CRB.
I still don't get the bow/ranged rather than thrown thing, do you chaps mean you have actually played as/with a Barbarian in a game where they have gone into a rage to shoot a bow or crossbow etc? which wouldn't benefit from the bonuses Rage provides. Why would they do that rather than just fire at them and then go into a Rage when they get within melee range?
Yeah unless you had a bow that adjusted to strength (and that is impossible for a crossbow and gun right?) why would you rage when using one?
I guess you could carry one raging bow and one non raging bow...
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Yeah unless you had a bow that adjusted to strength (and that is impossible for a crossbow and gun right?) why would you rage when using one?
I guess you could carry one raging bow and one non raging bow...
And the Savage Technologist and Urban Barbarian Archetypes get/can get DEX bonuses while raging.
Ah ok that makes since then. I wasn't terribly worried about the bow. I figure it worked for the Mongolians. raging to gun seemed weird
Also Savage Technologist Is definitely an oxymoron. Urban barbarian is pushing it.
I would see absolutely no problem with those archetypes reloading weapons etc. that feels strongly like the tranquil fury you were talking about.
The baseline barbarian probably should avoid ranged weapons just for mechanical reasons really. except thrown ofcourse
Yeah I get those archetypes doing it, it's what they are designed to do after all. I suppose you are right about the adaptive enchantment as well, I hadn't thought of that. It still seems out of the Barbarian's idiom, at what range would you say that you need to concentrate to hit the mark?
I don't have a problem with that one honestly I don't think the rage would interfere with concentration on a bow so much. It can make you amazingly focused in fact. Just hard to focus on not violent things.
Definitely not worth doing most ranged unless you using those archetype I would say however. Composite bow and throwing is ok.
Seeing how shooting at increasing range increments doesn't take any extra concentration or actions over their standard abilities, none.
You don't shoot then? Barbarian rage doesn't just call out Concentration purely in the PF spell use sense as they add the proviso patience. If you want to hit a target at 300' you definitely have to concentrate whatever you are using.
If the intention was a "cold tranquil fury" why wouldn't they be able to do things that require patience? Or even concentration. I'm not sure I'd give players a "cold tranquil fury" option in my games at least not one that gave them Rage bonuses.
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For arguments based on the flavor of rage, let me suggest reading Neal Litherland's 50 Shades of Rage,. For example,
50. Black Powder Frenzy: There's something about the spark of the hammer, and the thunder of the gun that calls out to Rage. Fire and brimstone fly free, and the barbarian follows, shooting and striking as needs be. While the number of people who think guns and fantasy mix well is small, and the number of people who think barbarians and guns mix well is even smaller, there is something to be said for the benefits that come from the Savage Technologist archetype, even if it isn't paired with something like the Underground Chemist, or the standard gunslinger.
On the other hand, I play a bloodrager with a homebrew archetype that adapted savage technologist to bloodrager. She does not reload during combat; instead, she carries three pistols. This is mainly because she lacks a gunslinger's ability to Quick Clear a misfired gun, but she also preferred buying more pistols over spending a feat on Rapid Reload.
She once had a problem with the lack of Dexterity skills during rage. The party was rescuing a kidnapped person by sneaking past the criminal guards. The fighter in heavy armor was left outside the door, since he could not sneak, but the bloodrager wore light armor and had good Dex for her ranged attacks. The victim was unconscious, so had to be carried out. The bloodrager could lift the weight while raging, but could not maintain stealth while raging. She raged, hoisted the victim, and ran.
i see that people saying that a barbarian can do this because RAW don't say you can't which is pretty stupid, since by RAW while raging i can have a complex philosophical discussion about the meaning of life, nothing stop me by RAW, while raging i can still sculpt a statue via profession sculptor since its WIS not INT or CHA or DEX and that it is never stated that it require concentration or patience (which anybody know that sculpting something, especially those who tried, that it require a lot of patience), while raging i can trade with people since it is never stated i can't, while raging i can hunt nothing say i can't and every hunter even those who do it for sport will tell you it require a lot of patience to hunt, hunting is not that simple as a lot of people think it is.
I believe that John Murdock was arguing by reductio ad nauseum, but imagination can cover those extremes.
My adult daughter created a barbarian focused on survival, with rage powers such as Raging Climber, Raging Swimmer, and Night Vision. Raging while stealthily stalking prey would deplete the rounds of rage before the kill, but brief bursts of feral rage to climb a tree or for enhanced tracking senses or for pouncing with Beast Totem claws make sense for a wilderness-survival barbarian.
I can also imagine a barbarian sculptor who uses his raging strength to chop a log with an axe, creating a statue resembling modern chainsaw sculptures. But if I created such a barbarian character, I would take Skilled Rager(Craft(sculpture)) to allow a craft skill check. Profession is about managing a business, not creating art.
As for philosophy while raging, read Eric Flint's The Philosophical Strangler.
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Seeing how shooting at increasing range increments doesn't take any extra concentration or actions over their standard abilities, none.
You don't shoot then? Barbarian rage doesn't just call out Concentration purely in the PF spell use sense as they add the proviso patience. If you want to hit a target at 300' you definitely have to concentrate whatever you are using.
If the intention was a "cold tranquil fury" why wouldn't they be able to do things that require patience? Or even concentration. I'm not sure I'd give players a "cold tranquil fury" option in my games at least not one that gave them Rage bonuses.
No, my "none" was that the Barbarian doesn't need to "Concentrate" to hit at any range increment, just like any other shooter or archer doesn't need to.
You absolutely do not have to concentrate to hit a target 300ft away from you in Pathfinder.
A cold tranquil fury is still fury and rage, just because I'm not screaming at the top of my lungs doesn't mean I'm not angry enough to kill someone. By saying people playing barbarians have to play them as raging frothing at the mouth berserkers is entirely a house rule you are insinuating, not anything supported by the rules.
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I can also imagine a barbarian sculptor who uses his raging strength to chop a log with an axe, creating a statue resembling modern chainsaw sculptures. But if I created such a barbarian character, I would take Skilled Rager(Craft(sculpture)) to allow a craft skill check. Profession is about managing a business, not creating art.
Oooo, I love chainsaw sculptures!
And yeah that's what I was thinking, you can get pretty impassioned while creating art, whether sculpting or painting or drawing, it's not all zen and logic.
No, my "none" was that the Barbarian doesn't need to "Concentrate" to hit at any range increment, just like any other shooter or archer doesn't need to.
You absolutely do not have to concentrate to hit a target 300ft away from you in Pathfinder.
A cold tranquil fury is still fury and rage, just because I'm not screaming at the top of my lungs doesn't mean I'm not angry enough to kill someone. By saying people playing barbarians have to play them as raging frothing at the mouth berserkers is entirely a house rule you are insinuating, not anything supported by the rules.
Can you give me PF examples of actions that require patience? Where patience is stated in the rules and is not just common sense? Just curious.
Can you also give me something from the rules that says your tranquil fury is in the PF rules? It certainly doesn't indicate that version of rage in the description of a Barbarian or his role. "For some, there is only rage. In the ways of their people, in the fury of their passion, in the howl of battle, conflict is all these brutal souls know. Savages, hired muscle, masters of vicious martial techniques, they are not soldiers or professional warriors—they are the battle possessed, creatures of slaughter and spirits of war" Who coldly, tranquilly but furiously reload their muskets and shoot people 300' away...
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Seems like some people have a pretty narrow minded concept of barbarians, rage and what it means to be fueled by anger. You think someone can't shoot and reload while raging go see the first John Wick.
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No, my "none" was that the Barbarian doesn't need to "Concentrate" to hit at any range increment, just like any other shooter or archer doesn't need to.
You absolutely do not have to concentrate to hit a target 300ft away from you in Pathfinder.
A cold tranquil fury is still fury and rage, just because I'm not screaming at the top of my lungs doesn't mean I'm not angry enough to kill someone. By saying people playing barbarians have to play them as raging frothing at the mouth berserkers is entirely a house rule you are insinuating, not anything supported by the rules.
Can you give me PF examples of actions that require patience? Where patience is stated in the rules and is not just common sense? Just curious.
Can you also give me something from the rules that says your tranquil fury is in the PF rules? It certainly doesn't indicate that version of rage in the description of a Barbarian or his role. "For some, there is only rage. In the ways of their people, in the fury of their passion, in the howl of battle, conflict is all these brutal souls know. Savages, hired muscle, masters of vicious martial techniques, they are not soldiers or professional warriors—they are the battle possessed, creatures of slaughter and spirits of war" Who coldly, tranquilly but furiously reload their muskets and shoot people 300' away...
Something that takes more than 1 full round I would say or that calls out requiring patience.
"Can you also give me something from the rules that says your tranquil fury is in the PF rules?"
Can you also give me something from the rules that says your frothing berserker is in the PF rules?
Neither are, how a person flavors their rage is entirely up to them. And nothing in the description in the "" that you posted leans to either way.
"Who coldly, tranquilly but furiously reload their muskets and shoot people 300' away..."
Yep. They can do it 600ft away even.
I'm quoting the description of Barbarian in the rules.
John Wick is not in the rules. As far as I can see tranquil fury isn't in the rules. If it was why would you need Moment of Clarity as a Rage Power? Neither is patience as a condition/rule, you are expected to make some judgement calls when reading the rules.
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I know you were quoting the description in the Core book.
The same description that does not back up your claim that Barbarians have to act a certain way and have extremely limited actions while Raging. It does not say anything about them being frothing at the mouth berserkers nor about Tranquil Fury, that is all up to the player.
Moment of Clarity isn't Tranquil Fury, it's full on zen, a moment of calm in the storm.
Yes, things requiring patience are up to the GM to call, but if you're using that to say Barbarians can't use ranged weapons in rage and can't reload either that is a bad call.
i know that feel blahpers, but if it can help you i'm not from the US which might be the reason i don't know the showMr. Murdock, you really know how to make an old pig feel old.Alex Trebeck is the host of Jeopardy, a mid afternoon game show.oh ok, don't know the show though
Helps a bit, thanks. Apologies for my momentary Americentrism.
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This seems a lot like a gun rage to me. First came anger, then the rage and killing.
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"while raging you make a lot of noise"
Where does it say that? Absolutely Nowhere.
"RAI of barbarian is just to enter into an animalistic rage and run toward is enemies to crush them."
Where does it say or imply that? Nowhere.
"but the barbarian think of only one thing while raging, and it is to crush is opponent by brute force"
Where does it say that? Nowhere.
"are talking about the standard barbarian, so when someone is in an animalistic like rage they are not thinking like a normal person"
Where does it say this at all? Absolute nowhere.
"they won't go: oh dear i am hurt, i need to take my potion, now i need to find it in my bag, oh dear where it is."
Where in the book does it say this? Nowhere.
"because we need to use common sense"
Yes we do.
"exemple of the warhulk"
Those were living siege engines that weren't supposed to think, and were not meant to be taken by PCs.
"try to reload an early pistol,"
Reloading a flintlocke took 12-15 seconds. In Pathfinder you can fire and reload multiple times in less than 6 seconds. Reality can go the f$@+ over there.
You have 100% made all of your claims up, absolutely nothing in the Barbarian class suggests they work the way you are implying they do.
Barbarians can shoot while Raging.
Barbarians can reload while Raging.
Barbarians can take things out of their backpack while Raging.
Barbarians can drink potions while Raging.
Mr. Murdock, you really know how to make an old pig feel old.Alex Trebeck is the host of Jeopardy, a mid afternoon game show.oh ok, don't know the show though
You obviously aren't as old as I am. My reaction was "What happened to Art Fleming?" (It appears that he has been dead for over 20 years.)
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I feel like a barbarian with a gun is a bit of an oxymoron. It kind of makes since to me on the crossbow point. "lousy stupid thing crank faster! ARGH" *smashes crossbow over enemies head instead*
I'm generally opposed to the idea of a barbarian loading a musket while raging but it don't look like RAW specifically says they can't.
(I had thought they just didn't use range weapons at all aside from throwing and bows while raging.)
There is at least 1 archetype which is all about making barbarians gun good.
There is at least 1 archetype which is all about making barbarians gun good.I feel like a barbarian with a gun is a bit of an oxymoron. It kind of makes since to me on the crossbow point. "lousy stupid thing crank faster! ARGH" *smashes crossbow over enemies head instead*
I'm generally opposed to the idea of a barbarian loading a musket while raging but it don't look like RAW specifically says they can't.
(I had thought they just didn't use range weapons at all aside from throwing and bows while raging.)
Yep.
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dude i was not using an ad infinitum, especially since it was at the beginning and it is still in discussion, learn your fallacyI believe that John Murdock was arguing by reductio ad nauseum, but imagination can cover those extremes.
My adult daughter created a barbarian focused on survival, with rage powers such as Raging Climber, Raging Swimmer, and Night Vision. Raging while stealthily stalking prey would deplete the rounds of rage before the kill, but brief bursts of feral rage to climb a tree or for enhanced tracking senses or for pouncing with Beast Totem claws make sense for a wilderness-survival barbarian.
I can also imagine a barbarian sculptor who uses his raging strength to chop a log with an axe, creating a statue resembling modern chainsaw sculptures. But if I created such a barbarian character, I would take Skilled Rager(Craft(sculpture)) to allow a craft skill check. Profession is about managing a business, not creating art.
I apologize to John Murdock for suggesting that he was trying to wear us down. The Latin phrase I wanted was "Reductio ad absurdum" rather than "Reductio ad nauseum." Reductio ad absurdum means an argument which attempts to disprove a statement by showing it inevitably leads to a ridiculous, absurd, or impractical conclusion. Ad nauseum, also called argumentum ad infinitum, means arguing until people are tired of the argument. I am embarrassed that I forgot so much of my 5 months of high school Latin 37 years ago.
The barbarian class is based on the Norse berserker, and I suspect this is the source of John Murdock's assertations. Their fury was viewed as a gift from Odin, so perhaps it was a religious ferver. Wikipedia describes the berserker fury as:
This fury, which was called berserkergang, occurred not only in the heat of battle, but also during laborious work. Men who were thus seized performed things which otherwise seemed impossible for human power. This condition is said to have begun with shivering, chattering of the teeth, and chill in the body, and then the face swelled and changed its colour. With this was connected a great hot-headedness, which at last gave over into a great rage, under which they howled as wild animals, bit the edge of their shields, and cut down everything they met without discriminating between friend or foe. When this condition ceased, a great dulling of the mind and feebleness followed, which could last for one or several days.
The Pathfinder barbarian rage is greatly toned down from the berserker fury. Taking minutes to enter a rage, wasting time in shield biting, hitting both friend and foe, and being disabled for a day afterwards don't fit into dungeon-delving roleplaying. The Pathfinder barbarian can end the rage at will, can tell friend from foe, and is fatigued for only minutes. The one-minute barbarian rage is more like an adrenaline rush, described in Wikipedia under Epinephrine. The adrenaline rush is associated with the fight-or-flight response, so it would create a focus on fighting or fleeing. But adrenaline rushes are the not rules as written, either.
The rules are the rules. A barbarian in rage:
1) gains a +4 morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves;
2) takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class;
3) cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration; and
4) is fatigued afterwards.
It does not say it closes down class abilities or feats. Firearm proficiency is a class ability or a feat. Firearm proficiency includes the ability to load firearms properly.
Some class abilities have built-in weaknesses. Spellcasting requires concentration. Fatigue prevents rage. Weapons can be disarmed. Loading ammunition would have been a good place to put a weakness in firearm use, but Paizo decided to go with a misfire mechanic instead. Loading provokes an attack of opportunity, but a successful attack of opportunity does not hinder loading. Therefore, loading is not as vulnerable to distraction as spellcasting or combat maneuvers.
Just felt like making this argument is pointless now.
If your using one of the calm ranged barbarian archetypes there is no reason they can't reload etc.
If your not you shouldn't be using a gun or crossbow anyways. At least not while raging it is a waste of the rage. If they still feel they need to do this I say let em. Their not doing anything overpowered by far.
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@Mathmuse: Just a snipet of clarification, and despite common sense, Firearm Proficency doesn't affect your ability to load firearms. It just negates that -4 penalty on to hit rolls with firearms. Plus most feats which improve firearms/weapons will require proficency.
In pathfinder, anyone can load firearms. There's no feat for it. It's not a skill either. A peasent can load firearms. Just how the game mechanics work.