Disguise DCs... what are they, exactly?

[Tacticslion]

So, in the Skills chapter, under the Disguise skill, you have the ability to change your appearance.

The chart, below, mentions a "DC Modifier."

But... what DC, exactly, are you modifying? It's not really clarified anywhere in the text.

Disguise wrote:

Change Appearance
You can use Disguise to change your appearance with 1d3 × 10 minutes of work with a disguise kit, by casting a spell such as disguise self, or by using a technological device such as a holoskin. The GM rolls the Disguise check in secret, so you’re not sure how good your disguise is. This check is opposed by the Perception check (see page 144) of anyone who might realize that you are not who you appear to be. If you are not drawing attention to yourself, other creatures do not usually get to attempt a Perception check to pierce your disguise. If creatures are being particularly alert for suspicious activity (such as security personnel on a starship or space station), it’s assumed that such observers are taking 10 on their Perception checks.

The effectiveness of your disguise depends on how much you’re changing your appearance. Without the aid of transformative magic or technology that allows you to do otherwise, you can use Disguise only to appear as a creature that is your size or one size category larger or smaller than you. This does not change your actual size or reach. Disguises are general—you cannot disguise yourself as a specific person.

Certain magic spells, such as disguise self, grant you a +10 bonus to Disguise checks.

The DCs for Disguise checks are adjusted by the type of disguise as well as other circumstances determined by the GM. These modifiers are cumulative; use all that apply.

I've made bold the important part: the only part in the text that refers to DCs at all.

Now, while general DCs are explained in Gamemastering, on page 392,

Gamemastering wrote:

Skill DCs It is up to you, as the GM, to determine the DCs of the various skill checks the players will attempt during play. Many of the skill descriptions include guidance on typical DCs for skill checks, but there may be times when you need to come up with a DC on your own. If a skill check does not have a predetermined DC, or if a player wants to attempt a task that is not covered in a skill’s description, use the following guidelines. A challenging DC for a skill check is equal to 15 + 1-1/2 × the CR of the encounter or the PCs’ Average Party Level (APL). For an easier check, you might reduce the DC by 5, while increasing the DC by 5 makes for a more difficult check. Changing the DC by 10 or more makes for either a trivial check with little chance of failure or a prohibitively high check with little chance of success, so be cautious when adjusting skill check DCs!

... that isn't the method the Disguise skill uses. It's explicitly, "Roll a disguise check; others oppose it with a perception." - there isn't a set DC to make, unless it's generally expected that it gets harder to make disguises as things go along.

[Tacticslion]

Another way of putting the question in a more FAQ-like query is:

Potential Disguise FAQ wrote:

The Disguise skill seems to refer to DCs, but this doesn't appear to be the way the skill is designed to work.

Are the DCs for the skill intended to be modifiers granted to others' Perception checks to pierce the disguise, or is it intended that the GM make an arbitrary APL-based DC to succeed at the disguise at all, with these modifiers applying after the fact? Or is there some other explanation for how to apply the DC modifiers?

[Xenocrat]

Flagging to move to rules forum

[Tacticslion]

Arg! Thanks!

Is there something obvious like that I'm missing about DCs?

[Tacticslion]

No one has any other ideas about this?

I made my second post a potential FAQ, but I'm also curious if anyone from the community has more insight than I do!

[whew]

It's in the original post:

Quote:

This check is opposed by the Perception check (see page 144) of anyone who might realize that you are not who you appear to be.

Your disguise check and modifiers modify what they need to roll on their perception check.

[Tacticslion]

So you consider the opposed Perception check to be the DC listed? So the greater the difference between how you usually look and your disguise, the more likely you are to get recognized for yourself?

(This is not a one-way problem: if you interpret it the other way, you get reaarded for doing weirdly outlandish stuff.)

((I'm also not arguing: I appreciate the feedback. I'm just making sure of your opinion.))

:)

[Deadmanwalking]

I tend to agree with whew. The only thing relevant to whether Disguise succeeds is whether anyone sees through it. That's a Perception check.

[Yeil]

Agree with Whew as well.

In the skill entry, it mentions 2 skill checks as part of the contest check, a disguise check and a perception check, but only one check has a target to succeed(a DC). The perception check. It is impossible to modify the disguise check DC because it doesn't have one, so the only logical place for these modifiers to go is the DC of the perception check. In this case the DC is whatever the GM rolled for the secret disguise check + any modifiers from the character's disguise skill, and tools used, etc.

This is consistent with the table values as well. a superficial alteration like a fake mustache is easy to see through, so you lower the DC of the perception check (disguise roll - 5). Using a spell or holographic projector to change your appearance to a different species that looks nothing like your original appearance makes it very difficult to spot any similarities, so you increase the DC of the perception check (disguise roll + 10).

[Tacticslion]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

I'm not sure we're all communicating.

Let me put it differently, and see what we come up with.

There are two different possible arguments:

1) It is more difficult to succeed at Disguise

2) It is more difficult to succeed at Perception

So, to be clear, is whew and Deadmanwalking (nice to see you're doing okay, guy! Hopefully your part of Texas is okay!) and Yeil all thing that it's number two?

Here is the issue with that, though: the weirder and farther "out-there" the disguise is, the easier it is to see through.

So if I want to disguise myself, the best bet that I can manage is becoming a purple-and-green octopus with pink-orange rhino feet on my head and an ostrich body with green feathers underneath?

That seems... implausible. I mean, I'd be hypothetically difficult to recognize, but pulling that off seems... hard.

Sure, maybe you can use magic to make those things work, but the problem is that said magic and effects already include bonuses to make that sort of thing function properly. So... are you getting rewarded twice? Are they referring to the other bonuses you already get?

[Yeil]

The flaw I see with option 1, is as I stated before, there is no DC to modify. There is no check to succeed at disguise mentioned anywhere in the skill. Only the opposed check to see through a disguise with perception. You just announce your plan to the GM, the GM rolls in secret, and you hope whatever they rolled holds up well to any perception checks you run into.

As far as pulling off an implausible costume with only a disguise kit... This is sci-fi ;) Think like the robot head Arnold uses when he disguises himself as a large woman in Total Recall. If you can make a totally convincing robot head, why not octopus limbs, rhino feet, an ostrich head, and some feathers?

That said, magic or a holographic generator would be easier than all that machinery, so I would think you would get those bonuses as well. I don't think that is imbalanced as most disguises are very situational, and the player doesn't necessarily get a lot of choice in the matter. For example, if you are trying to sneak past the all human crew of a space pirate ship, you are probably going to have to disguise yourself as a medium sized humanoid if you hope to walk through undetected. Now if the pirates are smuggling large exotic alien creatures, and the players were creative enough to let a number of them lose, then slipped into the fray, they deserve those bonuses!

I think the skill works this way to try and streamline the gameplay a bit. if you are using a holoskin or magic, it doesn't really make sense to have to roll a check to see if you can even create the disguise. you could certainly argue for needing a check for using a disguise kit, but at that point you are adding a whole new rule to a system to support one subset of a skill's uses. Also having a skill check to create the disguise would just lead to arguments about if its appropriate to take 20, or refusing to enter the pirate's den until they roll a high enough check, discarding multiple "bad" disguises until they feel its right. This way, its one dice roll, and the game moves on.

[Shinigami02]

Just one slight flaw with your interpretation.

CRB page 220, Holoskin wrote:

When you use a holoskin, you can disguise major features, race, or creature type without the DC of your Disguise check increasing, except against Perception checks that involve physical examination.

This sentence pretty well describes where those DC modifiers go. In fact, if your interpretation were correct, this would mean the super advanced disguise tech would actually make you worse at disguising yourself than a simple disguise kit.

[Brew Bird]

I noticed this too. There's no "DC" to modify, despite all these things saying they modify a DC. Unless I'm mistaken, opposed rolls have never been referred to as "DCs", so I think the DC language is probably an error.

Posting so I can flag for FAQ when the thread's moved.

[Shinigami02]

Notably I looked at Pathfinder's Disguise rules and they're pretty much the same thing, so Paizo at least has the precedent of the Perception being the "DC" so to speak.

[Matthew Downie]

If you have +7 Perception and are taking 10 as normal, I'd need 18 (or 17?) on my Disguise check to succeed, so the effective DC is 18 (or 17). If I'm attempting a difficult disguise - maybe I'm trying to pass myself off as your mother? - this DC could be made higher.

[Tacticslion]

Yeil wrote:

you could certainly argue for needing a check for using a disguise kit, but at that point you are adding a whole new rule to a system to support one subset of a skill's uses.

But... it's the only subset of the skill - the only thing it does at all.

Yeil wrote:

Also having a skill check to create the disguise would just lead to arguments about if its appropriate to take 20, or refusing to enter the pirate's den until they roll a high enough check, discarding multiple "bad" disguises until they feel its right. This way, its one dice roll, and...

... mmmmmmmmeh?

I mean, this way it's one skill check, but I'd still be up for, personally, making as many checks as it could, or take 20.

In the end, having anything means you can argue about whether or not it's appropriate to take 20.

But that's personal, and your point about the robot head is well-taken...

Shinigami02 wrote:

Just one slight flaw with your interpretation.

CRB page 220, Holoskin wrote:

When you use a holoskin, you can disguise major features, race, or creature type without the DC of your Disguise check increasing, except against Perception checks that involve physical examination.

This sentence pretty well describes where those DC modifiers go. In fact, if your interpretation were correct, this would mean the super advanced disguise tech would actually make you worse at disguising yourself than a simple disguise kit.

Hrm...

If y'all would flag this so we can FAQ it...

[whew]

Acting is part of a disguise, and can't be done in advance, so taking 20 may not be appropriate. Maybe a +2 circumstance bonus for taking extra time with the makeup.

[Yeil]

Tacticslion wrote:

But... it's the only subset of the skill - the only thing it does at all.

in this case I am referring to Disguise self(or any other spells), holoskins, and using the disguise kit as separate subsets. Only one of those cases does the disguise not being properly made make any sense.

Tacticslion wrote:

I mean, this way it's one skill check, but I'd still be up for, personally, making as many checks as it could, or take 20.

In the end, having anything means you can argue about whether or not it's appropriate to take 20.

Here I was just referring to my GM experience and watching a fun table grind to a halt as someone obsesses over getting something just right. its not really fun for the rest of the table to watch someone pondering if an 18 is enough, then throwing it out, and re-rolling 7 times to try and get a 19 or 20. The current disguise description is pretty clear that you get one roll and move on, like it or not. Full disclosure, I am totally exaggerating the numbers here to make my point, but I'm sure almost everyone here has seen this happen to a reasonable degree :)

Brew bird wrote:

Unless I'm mistaken, opposed rolls have never been referred to as "DCs", so I think the DC language is probably an error.

I don't know about pathfinder, but the Starfinder CRB does refer to opposed checks as a DC.

CRB page 132 wrote:

With an opposed skill check, one creature attempts a skill check to try accomplish some action or task, while another creature attempts its own skill check to determine the DC the first creature must meet or exceed to accomplish its goal.

Shinigami02 wrote:

Just one slight flaw with your interpretation.

CRB page 220, Holoskin wrote:

When you use a holoskin, you can disguise major features, race, or creature type without the DC of your Disguise check increasing, except against Perception checks that involve physical examination.

This sentence pretty well describes where those DC modifiers go. In fact, if your interpretation were correct, this would mean the super advanced disguise tech would actually make you worse at disguising yourself than a simple disguise kit.

I had not considered this description before, but I still stick to my original interpretation. I agree with your interpretation of the holoskin description, That it seems to be talking about a DC to successfully create a disguise. However, this DC, as far as I know, does not exist in the core rule book. Even in the holoskin description, it seems to refer to it, but not cite it, or tell us where to find it. Since the other methods I know of for disguising oneself, the spell, and the kit, work fine with the skill description as is, I suspect the holoskin is in need of an update.

That said though, I am just another player, so my opinion is in no way binding. Since these two descriptions do seem to contradict each other, this does seem prime for an FAQ entry.

[Ravingdork]

Found this thread while looking for an answer to this very question myself. What exactly is the DC modifier supposed to be modifying?

I really want an answer! The skill is practically unusable without it.

[Xenocrat]

Well it finally moved to rules, so now we can FAQ it.

[NumenorKing]

SF CRB - Skill Checks wrote:

Sometimes you attempt a skill check not to accomplish a task, but to thwart someone else’s task or action. This is called an opposed skill check. With an opposed skill check, one creature attempts a skill check to try accomplish some action or task, while another creature attempts its own skill check to determine the DC the first creature must meet or exceed to accomplish its goal. Typically, attempting an opposed skill check to determine the DC requires no action, but it often requires you to be conscious or have the ability to take certain types of actions when you do so."

An opposed skill check does indeed set the DC of the other skill check in question. In other words: The DC of your Disguise check is the result of the opposing Perception check, and the DC of the Perception check is the result of your Disguise check.

[Qwert110]

Tacticslion wrote:

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

I'm not sure we're all communicating.

Hopefully this has been answered already, but if not, let me help.

Disguise is an opposed check, so there's no set DC for it. You roll your disguise check. That means you do your best to try to make yourself look like Random_Android_X. So you roll the check... lets say you come up with a total of 17.

Now, for anyone who looks at you, they make a perception check to see if they can tell you are disguised. The DC for that check is 17, because that's how well you disguised yourself... that is, you rolled a 17 to disguise yourself, I have to beat a 17 perception check to recognize the disguise.

This is a useful mechanic because it allows some people to see through your disguise if they roll well, while others will be fooled if they roll poorly.

Does that help?

[dragonhunterq]

Agreed, your disguise check effectively sets the DC for the perception check of anyone in a position to see through your disguise.

[Kalderaan]

I hate to resurrect this particular thread, but I came across something and want to clarify.

From what I've collected above, the Disguise skill is simply an opposed check vs. opponent's Perception skill. My total Disguise skill check must be beaten by their Perception skill check. Pretty straightforward.

However, the Disguise Self spell throws in a wrinkle. It gives a +10 to the Disguise skill check. But it also allows for a Will save by the opponent to break the illusion.

DISGUISE SELF:

School illusion

Casting Time 1 standard action

Range personal

Duration 10 minutes/level (D)

You make yourself—and any clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment on you—look different. You can seem up to 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You can’t change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype). Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could merely add or obscure a minor feature, or you could look like an entirely different person or gender.

The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment.

If you use this spell to create a disguise, you gain a +10 circumstance bonus to the Disguise check (since it counts as altering your form). A creature that interacts with you directly can attempt a Will saving throw to recognize your appearance as an illusion.

So if I interact with someone directly, do they get a Will save AND an opposing Perception check?

For the Will save, what is the DC? The hat mentions Caster Level 6, but it doesn't specify anything else.

[breithauptclan]

The Will Save DC for seeing through the illusion would be the spell DC of whatever cast the Disguise Self spell. Either a caster character or a piece of equipment (which should list a save DC or some way of determining a save DC).

If an opponent succeeds at the Will Save, I am seeing two options:

1) You un-modify your disguise check results and then the opponent makes their perception check against your lower disguise check.

2) The opponent makes the perception check against the full disguise check (including the +10 modifier from Disguise Self) but whether they succeed at recognizing who you actually are or not, they can detect that at least part of your appearance is due to an illusion.

I think that both of these options are valid according to the rules, and the choice of which one to use may actually come down to how you are role playing it and what else you are using to disguise yourself.

So it could be something that you determine at the start of the game and stick with, or you may want to allow for making a decision on a case-by-case basis depending on the circumstances.