The Lashunta Retcon

[Indi523]

Wrath wrote:

Indi523 wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

Ouachitonian wrote:

Yeah, they've gone out of their way to make sure there aren't any gender roles, stereotypes, etc. in their games. Not even in aliens. Gender differences are effectively meaningless in all species now. Honestly, that makes aliens a lot more boring to me, when they're just humans with antennae or four arms or whatever. I'd like some that showed meaningful, stats-level sexual dimorphism (not just "males have beards/different colored hair/etc"), or had different sorts of life cycles, or something to make them something besides an RPG version of rubber forehead aliens. But c'est la vie.

Why does it have to be sexual dimorphism? Lashunta still exhibit stats-level dimorphism, it's just not tied to their sex.

Shirren and androids both have different lifecycles.

Short answer is that the only way to have a divergence in the appearance, sixe and capabilities of different members of a species and have those changes not be tied to a racial subtype that won't eventually diverge into two separate species is to have the changes tied to the sex of the individual. Other wise from a scientific version you have to come up with an explanation why in this case evolution does not work as it does for every other species.

Seriously though if there is sexual dimorphism it would be in the shirren. The females would be bigger, badder and probably more intelligent than the males who would be smaller, much weaker than the female mates and probably would become food for them after mating. One could rule that all Shirren adventurers you meet therefore are female.

Humans have a massively diverse morphology that isn't going to lead to evolutionary separation of the species.

So do many species of fish, in particular African Cichlids. Cichlids have both sexual dimorphism and subspecies colour morphs. But they cross breed very easily which means they won't spectate any time soon.

As long as there's a process of genetic flow between...

Skin coloration is a very minor genetic variation hardly worth mentioning. Humans are probably the least differentiated species given we are not separated. They did a study of a tribe in the African Congo which was thought to have been isolated from other populations to see about distinctions in DNA. They found the genes to make every other so called race on the planet. There is much more sexual dimorphism among humans with men having 20% more muscle mass and women being able to endure pain and fight off disease better than men

Many of those cyclids you speak about are different species or developing into different species. To have a creature like the deep sea angler where the female is 100 times the size of the male you need sexual dimorphism. Changes like this tied to race would preclude mating. There might be reasons it could happen but it would not be the norm.

[TheGoofyGE3K]

Honestly, I thought the Kasatha change to +2 Str instead of +2 Dex and adding a -2 to int and taking away their crazy jumping abilities was more jarring.

And it definitely makes sense to add more options for those who dont necessarily want to play one gender or the other to have access to the stats I need to make my character work.

But anyone saying its not a retcon, it doesnt work that way. It is a change that works with the pre-existing lore. But it's still a retcon, as its a retroactive change. Not that there's a problem with that.

If they really want to do something with gender dimorphism, it would definitely be better on something from the Archive, and perhaps something more cosmetic.

[HWalsh]

Well... I look at it like this... As a Theory:

In the Mythic Age of Golarion the 2 sexes of Lashunta had the following:

Female: +2 Int, +2 Cha, -2 Con
Male: +2 Int, +2 Str, -2 Wis

This made perfect sense for the Females to be in charge and have a matriarchy. They were (generally) wiser and more charismatic. Though... I will state... Not by much. The +2 to Charisma only gave them a +1 bonus and the -2 Wisdom only gave males a -1 penalty.

So, why then, were they a Matriarchy? There is only one answer. Tradition.

So, the years went by... We don't know what the life span of the Lashunta are, so we should assume human/other. That means there has been several thousand years of evolution.

Somewhere along the line (according to Starfinder) they figured out how to alter their characteristics at puberty. This may have started out by allowing them to choose a physical sex (which would have been a neat thing for Paizo to keep) but it isn't that much of a stretch for them to have also at this time developed the ability to alter physical sex without altering the other traits that they possessed at birth.

The original female are obviously the Damaya Tribe, having a +2 Int, +2 Charisma, -2 Constitution.

The original males are the Korasha Tribe, having +2 Strength, +2 Charisma, -2 Wisdom.

Which means that the Korasha (the former males) underwent the most radical change. They lost their +2 Int, but gained +2 Charisma. Why?

Well... This could have been a result of the ability to reassign/assign sex during puberty. Again, we know they can do this, it is stated in Starfinder that they choose their tribe-type. Since the Damaya tribe is identical to the old Female sex of the Lashunta. There also were probably a huge number of disaffected Korasha males who transitioned to female because it was the only way to really enter politics and be taken seriously.

Well, if we go based on the theory of evolution there must have been some kind of survival or propagation for the change. So, let us look at the former male traits...

+2 Int, +2 Strength, -2 Wisdom

Well, logically we would look into what females of the Lashunta found attractive and in mates. It is likely that they didn't highly value Intelligence in mates. That is not to say that they liked dumb mates, but from a survival perspective, they used their opposite sex counterparts to complete areas that they were lacking in.

Note:
I need to say this, I am in no way insinuating that REAL LIFE sexes have any differences. I am strictly postulating a theory on a FICTIONAL race that had actual differences in sex.

Obviously Lashunta females didn't care too much about the loss of wisdom. However we are told from Pathfinder that Lashunta females were physically more frail (-2 Con) and were physically weaker (Males had +2 Strength) meaning that, we can assume that they prioritized mates on their physical capabilities.

Namely that they looked for male mates that were physically stronger and more durable than they were.

Now we inject the fact that now, we know (or at least can assume) that they can change sex once they reach puberty. This causes a serious problem. This likely happened when advanced technology became a thing.

Suddenly you had Male Lashunta with the +2 Int, +2 Cha, and -2 Constitution. We will no longer, at this point, refer to this statistic array as the Female Lashunta, but as the Damaya.

Now... These probably became more attractive mates than the former all-male tribe (henceforth referenced as the Korasha).

Why?

Well, with technology on the rise ranged weapons were most likely better for the defense of their people specifically formorians. This makes the Con Score less important. This is also the time when they were encountering other races and using interstellar travel. Again, a great survival trait in this situation is charisma as these potential threats can be reasoned with.

We don't know why the higher Con became less important. This could also be that, in Starfinder, it makes far less of a difference as everything has far higher physical durability. A club in Starfinder does the same damage as a club in pathfinder. With the increased physical hardiness, a +1 HP per level was likely less important.

It is highly likely that the lower Wisdom of the Korasha males and females and the lower Charisma were no longer making up for the benefits of the Higher Strength and Constitution. Intelligence, in this case, isn't a highly valued survival trait because the general intelligence of the galaxy by this point was just so much higher.

Education got better over time, hence why everyone has at least 4+ Int as opposed to the old 2+ Int in skills. This, combined with the recession of magic in favor of technology, makes the +2 Int less attractive in a mate.

So, you would have seen a rise of a sub-group of Korasha that had +2 Strength (better for physical confrontations), +2 Charisma (good diplomatic abilities) and -2 Wisdom (less of a weakness as spells were less of a thing, and those primarily were what Wisdom save was good for.)

This meant that Dymaya tribe members preferred this new Korasha tribe. Though, it is likely, at this time that it was still a matriarchal society.

This meant that females chose mates instead of males. With males and females though now possessing the same traits, only now driven by genetic markers in tribe, this would have literally been far less important.

Indeed, Korasha can be just as good politicians as Damaya after all.

So what changed?

Probably the Gap.

Imagine that the amnesia hits. They are rebuilding their society and... Suddenly there isn't a whole lot of differences... They don't have memories of their old traditions. They might even know that they are old traditions but there is no longer and emotional attachment to them.

Damaya are the same, regardless of what sex they are. Korasha are the same, regardless of what sex they are. Both of them are equally capable politicians and neither Intelligence or Strength are truly make-or-break for survival.

Now, we get to the issue of why then did the Damaya not change. Well, simply put they were primarily in charge and so it was them who set precedent until the Gap. Thus we had the Damaya, former female-only Lashunt, and the Korasha, former male-only who evolved to become better mates hence the raised Charisma and the disregard of Intelligence.

They became the perfect mates. Greater strength. Greater constitution. Comparable charisma.

The gap hits. The matriarchy crumbles as it simply makes no sense and the traditions no longer have attachments. 300 years pass. Bam. Modern Lashunta.

[Alzrius]

The NPC wrote:

Its not a matter of like or dislike. It just wanted to know if my guess was right.

Your guess, if I'm reading you correctly, is right. Crystal Frasier said over here that they've "taken some steps to correct problematic elements of the lashunta for Starfinder." She explains the in-game nature of the retcon in more detail in this post.

[captain yesterday]

I like the retcon. :-)

[Gark the Goblin]

This reminds me of a concern I had after running a con game earlier this month.

Basically, this Sword and Planet (Pathfinder RPG) adventure had a bunch of pregens, and to make it easier for people to get into the roles, I wanted to allow the players to choose names and genders for these characters. But this turned out to be tricky with the lashunta I built. I used the "male" statistics, but still left the gender up to the player who chose that character - and then just so happened to have a player who was knowledgeable about Pathfinder (not something I expected, given I'm in Sweden and I've never even seen a Pathfinder book at the local game store). This player told the player who chose the lashunta that because they had the male stats, they should choose the male gender. And I was confused but I suddenly wasn't sure if it was cissexist to assume that lashunta didn't automatically get to determine their physical and mental strengths when they chose gender. Like, that would be a cool thing for an alien species to have. Yet it seemed like a transphobic thing to say and I regret not having a discussion with that player. But the whole situation (and the accompanying NB erasure) could have been avoided if lashunta had had this "retcon" from the start.

[spectrevk]

CountArioch wrote:

Alternate Lashunta: Lashunta are now genderless with two castes instead. Pic related:

http://pm1.narvii.com/6199/fba02dd5bbc63b43cac98124a3b3e8fdb42ee4a3_hq.jpg

I hope you're happy: I'm definitely playing a Lashunta named Picolo the first chance I get :P

[evilnerf]

I for one, think that they made the right move. It's always best to err on the side of having fun.

[Ouachitonian]

evilnerf wrote:

I for one, think that they made the right move. It's always best to err on the side of having fun.

Seems to me there's a lot of fun to be had in overcoming gender differences. All the more when there are actual differences. Was the tv show Pitch, about the first woman in the MLB, wrongbadfun because it portrayed a woman succeeding in a men's league? If lashunta males were still hairy meatheads, couldn't we tell some fun stories about how one nevertheless succeeded in a career field traditionally held by females, despite his not being totally suited for it? Isn't that story more powerful if he's actually statistically worse at the job, instead of it just being a matter of unreasoning prejudice?

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Ouachitonian wrote:

...If lashunta males were still hairy meatheads, couldn't we tell some fun stories about how one nevertheless succeeded in a career field traditionally held by females, despite his not being totally suited for it? Isn't that story more powerful if he's actually statistically worse at the job, instead of it just being a matter of unreasoning prejudice?

You can still pursue and develop that storyline with male korasha lashuntas. It sounds fun. But, if you want to play a female korasha lashunta following your same premise, you're not locked in to the old attribute bonuses/penalties either.

[Ouachitonian]

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Ouachitonian wrote:

...If lashunta males were still hairy meatheads, couldn't we tell some fun stories about how one nevertheless succeeded in a career field traditionally held by females, despite his not being totally suited for it? Isn't that story more powerful if he's actually statistically worse at the job, instead of it just being a matter of unreasoning prejudice?

You can still pursue and develop that storyline with male korasha lashuntas. It sounds fun. But, if you want to play a female korasha lashunta following your same premise, you're not locked in to the old attribute bonuses/penalties either.

If a lashunta wanted to make it in a typically-damaya field, they can just choose to be a damaya. That's boring. It's a much more interesting story when they're overcoming limitations they didn't choose.

[Ventnor]

Ouachitonian wrote:

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Ouachitonian wrote:

...If lashunta males were still hairy meatheads, couldn't we tell some fun stories about how one nevertheless succeeded in a career field traditionally held by females, despite his not being totally suited for it? Isn't that story more powerful if he's actually statistically worse at the job, instead of it just being a matter of unreasoning prejudice?

You can still pursue and develop that storyline with male korasha lashuntas. It sounds fun. But, if you want to play a female korasha lashunta following your same premise, you're not locked in to the old attribute bonuses/penalties either.

If a lashunta wanted to make it in a typically-damaya field, they can just choose to be a damaya. That's boring. It's a much more interesting story when they're overcoming limitations they didn't choose.

A way to have this concept in Starfinder would be to have your lashunta's parents be strict traditionalists who forced their children to conform to the old lashunta gender roles.

[evilnerf]

Ouachitonian wrote:

evilnerf wrote:

I for one, think that they made the right move. It's always best to err on the side of having fun.

Seems to me there's a lot of fun to be had in overcoming gender differences. All the more when there are actual differences. Was the tv show Pitch, about the first woman in the MLB, wrongbadfun because it portrayed a woman succeeding in a men's league? If lashunta males were still hairy meatheads, couldn't we tell some fun stories about how one nevertheless succeeded in a career field traditionally held by females, despite his not being totally suited for it? Isn't that story more powerful if he's actually statistically worse at the job, instead of it just being a matter of unreasoning prejudice?

You are describing two seperate phenomena. You're right that there IS fun to be had in breaking gender stereotypes and biases. There have been whole RPGs based on that. *cough*Night Witches*cough*

But if all female members of a species are mechanically inferior at something so it is harder to break those stereotypes, then are you really helping to encourage that kind of play, or are you just reinforcing that kinda play?

"You're playing a female Lashunta soldier? Why don't you just play male instead, you'll be better."

[thejeff]

Ouachitonian wrote:

evilnerf wrote:

I for one, think that they made the right move. It's always best to err on the side of having fun.

Seems to me there's a lot of fun to be had in overcoming gender differences. All the more when there are actual differences. Was the tv show Pitch, about the first woman in the MLB, wrongbadfun because it portrayed a woman succeeding in a men's league? If lashunta males were still hairy meatheads, couldn't we tell some fun stories about how one nevertheless succeeded in a career field traditionally held by females, despite his not being totally suited for it? Isn't that story more powerful if he's actually statistically worse at the job, instead of it just being a matter of unreasoning prejudice?

Maybe, but overwhelmingly you don't get those stories. You get characters built for their roles rather than ones built to be bad at them. And you also get players unhappy because they can't use the race for the character they want without playing a gender they don't want to play.

If you do want to play the character succeeding in a non-traditional role, you can still do that by choosing a race that's bad at it.

[Luthorne]

Ouachitonian wrote:

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Ouachitonian wrote:

...If lashunta males were still hairy meatheads, couldn't we tell some fun stories about how one nevertheless succeeded in a career field traditionally held by females, despite his not being totally suited for it? Isn't that story more powerful if he's actually statistically worse at the job, instead of it just being a matter of unreasoning prejudice?

You can still pursue and develop that storyline with male korasha lashuntas. It sounds fun. But, if you want to play a female korasha lashunta following your same premise, you're not locked in to the old attribute bonuses/penalties either.

If a lashunta wanted to make it in a typically-damaya field, they can just choose to be a damaya. That's boring. It's a much more interesting story when they're overcoming limitations they didn't choose.

You could always choose to be a member of practically any race that possesses sexual dimorphism (such as humans) who hails from a colony that has a society with gender roles. You can even choose to have ability scores that don't necessarily match what would be optimal, because while a player chooses the ability scores, the character doesn't, and have them seek to overcome their natural limitations. And all that without having to force it on every single other player interested in playing a member of that race.

Edit: This is leaving aside that lashunta choose during puberty...which is not necessarily indicative of someone who knows what they intend to do with the rest of their life. I mean, how many of us knew what they wanted to do with the rest of their life as a teenager...and for how many of us was what we wanted to do what we actually did? It's still entirely possible. Also note that most lashunta believe a child has the right to choose...not all of them. Given the psychic rituals involved and techniques that do the choosing...it's possible that choice could be imposed upon them. It's not entirely clear as to whether the rituals and techniques are performed by the child, by others for the child, or perhaps possibly either. Leaving aside potentially being pressured by parents, friends, or other family into a choice they ultimately regret...

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Ouachitonian wrote:

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Ouachitonian wrote:

...If lashunta males were still hairy meatheads, couldn't we tell some fun stories about how one nevertheless succeeded in a career field traditionally held by females, despite his not being totally suited for it? Isn't that story more powerful if he's actually statistically worse at the job, instead of it just being a matter of unreasoning prejudice?

You can still pursue and develop that storyline with male korasha lashuntas. It sounds fun. But, if you want to play a female korasha lashunta following your same premise, you're not locked in to the old attribute bonuses/penalties either.

If a lashunta wanted to make it in a typically-damaya field, they can just choose to be a damaya. That's boring. It's a much more interesting story when they're overcoming limitations they didn't choose.

Right. But what I'm saying is that a lashunta doesn't have to be a damaya to pursue a typically-damaya field. I suspect that most korasha lashunta like being korasha, feeling it deep down to their bones, and wouldn't switch for the mechanical benefits of damaya. The only difference now is that female lashunta have the option to be korasha, and male lashunta have the option to be damaya. And agender and gender-fluid lashunta can be either korasha or damaya. Every lashunta PC can still work to crack and shatter their subrace's social glass ceilings.

Edit: Ninja'd (ghost operative'd) multiple times.

[Chris Lambertz]

Removed a baiting post and the resulting discussion. If you'd like to debate real-world politics and the influence they may or may not have on the gaming industry, take it to another online venue.

EDIT: Removed an additional post. If you take issue with a moderation action, you may provide your feedback to the Website Feedback subforum or [e-mail].

[Deadmanwalking]

That would be considered problematic, yes.

Of course, Lashunta were all originally equally intelligent. The males had less Wis and Chr, but not less Int. Makes things a bit less problematic whichever gender is more physically powerful.