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Are you asking if a crafter can put agile on a greatclub because somewhere out there is a fighter with Fighter's Finesse (hammers), because that means the greatclub is technically usable with Weapon Finesse by that fighter?
Personally, I'd go with "crafters can technically apply any kind of property to a piece of armour or weapon, but only ones whose prerequisites are met have any positive effect".
So somebody could place the agile property on a greatclub, but such a property would only be active if somebody was using weapon finesse (or another compatible ability) with that weapon.
Personally, I'd go with "crafters can technically apply any kind of property to a piece of armour or weapon, but only ones whose prerequisites are met have any positive effect".
So somebody could place the agile property on a greatclub, but such a property would only be active if somebody was using weapon finesse (or another compatible ability) with that weapon.
This one is not true, at least in the text.
The original question...
*sigh*
Thanks to the way the writer worded the feat, and the fact that in 2011 there wasn't any way to use Weapon Finesse with a weapon other than those allowed by the feat text, and the fact that JJ didn't change the text in "A Song of Silver", intentionally or not, . . .
. . .
. . . Yeah, fine, go nuts. PFS will probably produce bricks from undigested food over it, though.
Personally, I'd go with "crafters can technically apply any kind of property to a piece of armour or weapon, but only ones whose prerequisites are met have any positive effect".
So somebody could place the agile property on a greatclub, but such a property would only be active if somebody was using weapon finesse (or another compatible ability) with that weapon.
This one is not true, at least in the text.
The original question...
*sigh*
Thanks to the way the writer worded the feat, and the fact that in 2011 there wasn't any way to use Weapon Finesse with a weapon other than those allowed by the feat text, and the fact that JJ didn't change the text in "A Song of Silver", intentionally or not, . . .
. . .
. . . Yeah, fine, go nuts. PFS will probably produce bricks from undigested food over it, though.
There's a lot of things I wouldn't dare try in PFS. If this was a PFS question I would say something very different.
I think that that interpretation is the one that makes the most sense, though. Especially since one man's one-handed weapon is another man's light weapon (character sizes!), and it's not like there's some objective quality to a weapon that decides whether it is possible to use it with weapon finesse or not. (Merely the ease of doing so for various people)
Ultimately, it all comes down to what the table wants to run with. So, OP, please do ask the other players/GM what they think would be the most fun.
As written, you can do it. As intended, ask JJ in his thread, he might answer. It probably won't break anything either way.
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For the record, you cannot use weapon finesse with an oversized light weapon or an undersized one-handed weapon.
With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls.
Such a weapon could have the Agile property, but a medium creature cannot finesse a large Shortsword or a small Longsword. A large Shortsword could have Agile, because it is a light weapon in its normal category. A small longsword could not have Agile, because it is a one-handed weapon.
Being able to be finessed is a property of the weapon, so I believe you can only put Agile on a weapon that is either explicitly useable with finesse, like an Elven curved blade, or which is a light weapon for the size it was crafted.
Being able to be finessed is a property of the weapon, so I believe you can only put Agile on a weapon that is either explicitly useable with finesse, like an Elven curved blade, or which is a light weapon for the size it was crafted.
The ability to finesse is a property of the wielder, with far too many examples to quickly list.
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It is also a quality of the weapon per the weapon design rules. It's unclear which one Agile is referring to.
The Bastard Sword FAQ may tangentially be important. Regardless of whether the wielder has exotic proficiency and can wield it in one hand, or only martial proficiency and can wield it in two hands, it is a one-handed weapon. So the weapon itself is unchanged by the ability of the user to wield it in a particular way.
As written, you can do it. As intended, ask JJ in his thread, he might answer. It probably won't break anything either way.
Awwwww. It's like he's busy or something....
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Your previous message did not mention Foghter's Finesse when talking about oversized weapons.
in a way the wording is bad, since a huge light weapon its still a light weapon so its usable with weapon finesse with a -2 penalty for oversized weapon and must be used as a two-handed weapon of course, and i think a medium two-handed weapon would be usable with weapon finesse for a huge creature since it would be a light weapon for them but for that i am not sure.
What you wrote in that quote was not in the context of using Fighter's Finesse, and is not correct. That's what I was responding to.
The issue of how a particular character treats a weapon and what the weapon actually is pops up several places in Pathfinder, and doesn't really have a clear answer. A lance wielded one-handed is still a two-handed weapon for power attack. Any other two-handed weapon wielded one-handed is not considered a two-handed weapon for power attack.
The bastard sword FAQ I mentioned states it is a one-handed weapon regardless of how you are required to wield it.
I think there is probably a distinction between what a weapon actually is vs how a character treats it. And I think that probably means class features work off of how a character treats it (Fighter's Finesse combined with Rogue's Finesse Training, for example), but things like enhancements, which are limited by the weapon independent of who or how it is wielded, probably can't take class abilities into account.
It's not completely clear. It may be that Finesse Training doesn't combine with Fighter's Finesse at all. Or it may be that Agile can be placed on anything. Agile, unfortunately, is unlikely to get an FAQ. Just ask your GM, as it's pretty much their call. For strictly RAW, you're going to run into table variation.
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The issue of how a particular character treats a weapon and what the weapon actually is pops up several places in Pathfinder, and doesn't really have a clear answer. A lance wielded one-handed is still a two-handed weapon for power attack. Any other two-handed weapon wielded one-handed is not considered a two-handed weapon for power attack.
The Agile property requires the enchanted weapons must be useable with the Weapon Finesse feat.
Weapons don't have a "Finesse" quality. The Weapon Finesse feat is what defines which weapons the user can apply the feat towards. Feats and weapons subsequently published modify the list of applicable weapons provided by the Weapon Finesse feat.
In the case of Fighter's Finesse, the list of usable weapons is expanded to include all weapons in the selected weapon group.
As a follow up to Fighter's Finesse.
You should look into Trained Grace instead of the Agile property.
As an example: Sample Fighter
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EDIT: You message about trained grace snuck in while I was typing. This was a response to the one right before that. Also, I agree about Trained Grace.
But you just said where a weapon that can be used with finesse is defined... In the feat and in the individual weapon descriptions. Those are the weapons that can be used with finesse independent of the abilities of the character. Finesse Training (or Swashbuckler's Finesse) doesn't change that list. It changes the list for that character. So the question is, can a character enhance a weapon with Agile if they can finesse it, or only if anyone with the feat can finesse it? I don't know if we'll get a definitive answer on that.
For a home game, it's GM's call. For PFS, usually a list like is in the feat is considered exhaustive, unless something specific, like the individual weapon descriptions, adds to that list.
As for finesse being a quality of the weapon or not, it isn't spelled out as directly as that is the core Rulebook. It would be better if it were listed alongside things like reach and brace in the weapons table. But in the rules for designing weapons, it is listed as a weapon quality.
Weapon Qualities
When designing a new weapon, you can choose from the following weapon qualities. Each quality can be selected once unless otherwise specified....
Finesse (3 DP): The weapon can be used with Weapon Finesse as if it were a light weapon. Only one-handed and exotic melee weapons can have this quality.
So, yes, it is a weapon quality, explicitly, at least when using those rules. Again, it's unclear how much that is meant to interact with something like Agile, but something listed as a weapon quality is most definitely a weapon quality.
Let's take the line of reasoning that since someone can finesse a weapon type, it is a finesse weapon and apply it elsewhere. Sapping can only be placed on weapons that deal non-lethal damage. Any weapon can deal non-lethal damage by taking a -4 to-hit. Does that mean any weapon can be made into a Sapping weapon and the line limiting Sapping is pointless? Or only weapons that are called out to deal non-lethal like a sap or a whip? And what happens if you add Merciful to a Greatsword or you have the trait to allow Scimitars to deal non-lethal? One of those things is a quality of the base weapon, dealing non-lethal damage. One is a quality of a specific weapon, Merciful. The others are ways that a specific character can use a weapon that is not normally a non-lethal weapon.
So, yes, it is a weapon quality, explicitly, at least when using those rules. Again, it's unclear how much that is meant to interact with something like Agile, but something listed as a weapon quality is most definitely a weapon quality.
The weapon creation rules are an optional subset, much like words of power, custom races, or stamina rules. I avoid referencing optional rules for all of these systems in rules discussions.
While individual published weapons state they are usable with Weapon Finesse, (modifying the list of useable weapons provided by Weapon Finesse) no Paizo published weapon that I know of has the finesse quality as described under the Weapon Creation rules.
The issue of how a particular character treats a weapon and what the weapon actually is pops up several places in Pathfinder, and doesn't really have a clear answer. A lance wielded one-handed is still a two-handed weapon for power attack. Any other two-handed weapon wielded one-handed is not considered a two-handed weapon for power attack.The Agile property requires the enchanted weapons must be useable with the Weapon Finesse feat.
Weapons don't have a "Finesse" quality. The Weapon Finesse feat is what defines which weapons the user can apply the feat towards. Feats and weapons subsequently published modify the list of applicable weapons provided by the Weapon Finesse feat.
In the case of Fighter's Finesse, the list of usable weapons is expanded to include all weapons in the selected weapon group.
You are technically correct, but if it were ever FAQ'd I'd be willing to be $100 this not how it would be ruled.
The general concept is that being able to be used with Finesse is a property of the weapon, and some special abilities change which weapons can be used with Finesse.
Since Agile weapon is written, in such a way that the weapon in question must be usable with Weapon Finesse it technically works.
However, I'm certain that wasn't the intention at all and it was only ever intended to work with weapons that are called in the weapon finesse feats or other weapons which specifically state they work with weapon finesse (Elven Branched Spear).
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The fact that a special ability is required to use Weapon Finesse with a given weapon is the proof that the weapon itself doesn't fit the criteria of a weapon that works with Weapon Finesse.
The fact that a special ability is required to use Weapon Finesse with a given weapon is the proof that the weapon itself doesn't fit the criteria of a weapon that works with Weapon Finesse.
You mean, other than the fact that Weapon (or whatever) Finesse is limited to specific types and sizes of weapons? Realistically, (not applicable from a rules standpoint) finesse should be a function of a weapons balance and leverage. Problem is, if you go with that, the humble 2h spear should also be a finesse weapon, which must not be so, because it is a cheap, Simple weapon, and many similar side-effects.
Now, for war-gamey reasons, a tax must be paid to replace Strength with Dexterity for melee combat. This is inherent to .
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Weapons don't have a "Finesse" quality. The Weapon Finesse feat is what defines which weapons the user can apply the feat towards. Feats and weapons subsequently published modify the list of applicable weapons provided by the Weapon Finesse feat.
In the case of Fighter's Finesse, the list of usable weapons is expanded to include all weapons in the selected weapon group.
Volkard is correct, and the RAW isn't at all arbitrary:
Weapon Finesse: "With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain..."
Fighter's Finesse: "The fighter gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with all melee weapons that belong to the associated fighter weapon group (even if they cannot normally be used with Weapon Finesse). The fighter must have the Weapon Finesse feat before choosing this option."
-- It's pretty clear to me: A martial finally got a nice thing. However, that thing is not "broken" (i.e. "too powerful"):
Agile: "...A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with an agile weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons."
-- So no 1.5x damage with that polearm or greatsword (as you'd received with normal STR usage). And you'll still need Double Slice to get the full amount added to an off-hand weapon while TWF'ing.
Power Attack: This feat doesn't care about weapon type (although granted damage is reduced for off-hand or secondary natural weapons). The main annoyance for Finesse martials is the STR:13 requirement (which many won't have because STR is their dump stat).
Piranha Strike: "When wielding a light weapon, you can choose to take a -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls...." -- Basically the "Power Attack" for the finesse guys. But unlike PA, the wording here explicitly refers to a weapon property: "light".
~ ~ ~
In summation, what is a DEX-fighter going to gain by taking Fighter's Finesse (in, say, heavy blades or polearms) and then spending fat stacks to upgrade his greatsword or fauchard with Agile?
...well, he's going to do less damage with it than a Power Attacking STR-fighter. With a greatsword, he'll do one or two points more than Mr. Elven Curved Blade guy finessing that weapon on average swats, but won't get as many crits and can't use a shield. Slightly MAD (he needs to keep STR up for Power Attack) and TWF'ing bastardsword and shortsword (or other heavy+light combo), he'll do less damage than a STR-dumped TWF specialist with a pair of light weapons exploiting Piranha Strike.
OK, so he does less than a DEX min/maxing TWF'er and breaks even with ECB. So what's it good for? Well, it broadens what he can used in one hand. Basically, more weapons become like an Elven Curved Blade for him. But given that the ECB is a d10 weapon, there's nothing he can hold in one hand that does more damage.
...so why would a DEX-fighter ever take this, except for "flavor" reasons (such as using your deity's weapon)? IMO, the best benefit is from changing your primary weapon's damage type. E.g. to bludgeoning/piercing with a morningstar because you're tired of constructs and aberrations.
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Sir Thugsalot - The question is not whether a Fighter with Fighter's Finesse can use an Agile weapon and gain the benefit of Dex-to-Damage. That's clearly the case.
The question is whether you can add the Agile property to a Greatsword, because some Fighter somewhere can finesse a Greatsword using Fighter's Finesse.
Volkard - Since we are throwing out optional rules, Fighter's Finesse itself is under the Advanced Weapon Training rules, which are an optional ruleset from a Player Companion and not part of the Core RPG line. Agile is also not from the Core RPG line, but it was written much earlier than Fighter's Finesse, or Swashbuckler for that matter, so it's safe to assume neither of those were considered when it was written.
Sir Thugsalot - The question is not whether a Fighter with Fighter's Finesse can use an Agile weapon and gain the benefit of Dex-to-Damage. That's clearly the case.
The question is whether you can add the Agile property to a Greatsword, because some Fighter somewhere can finesse a Greatsword using Fighter's Finesse.
Volkard - Since we are throwing out optional rules, Fighter's Finesse itself is under the Advanced Weapon Training rules, which are an optional ruleset from a Player Companion and not part of the Core RPG line. Agile is also not from the Core RPG line, but it was written much earlier than Fighter's Finesse, or Swashbuckler for that matter, so it's safe to assume neither of those were considered when it was written.
There is a difference between non-core and optional. I listed examples of optional systems to give context to my statement.
Nobody uses something min/maxed with the race builder rules when arguing optimal races.
Nobody uses Words of Power when arguing how magic works in RAW.
Nobody uses stamina rules when comparing casters/maritals
Nobody uses Spell Research when debating what casters can and cannot do.
Why should anyone use custom weapon creations rules when discussing what can and cannot be done with published weapons.
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The only significant difference between Advanced Weapon Training and the things you listed is that Advanced Weapon Training is a popular optional system.
My only point with the weapon building rules is that somewhere in the game system in Paizo material finesseable is defined as a weapon quality, so it is not wrong to call it that.
I am not saying that the weapon creation rules define what weapons Agile can be added to. I'm saying Weapon Finesse and the individual weapons define what a finesse weapon is. and there's no need to look at an outside source.
You are suggesting that an optional system that did not exist when Agile was written has fundamentally changed what weapons Agile can be placed on. If we are not supposed to look at optional material to define core ideas like what a finesse weapon is, then we should not look at Fighter's Finesse to do so. Why would anyone look at an optional fighter subsystem in a splat book to define what a finesseable weapon is?
How would you rule Sapping that I gave as an example earlier? To me that seems like a pretty direct parallel to Agile. Can I have a Sapping Greatsword, since there are abilities that allow Greatswords to do non-lethal?
The only significant difference between Advanced Weapon Training and the things you listed is that Advanced Weapon Training is a popular optional system.
The difference is, like the rules for custom races, the rules for weapon creation include this line:
this section introduces rules for GMs to use as guidelines.
These are not rules for players to tailor weapons to their characters, they are guidelines for GM's looking to delve into building custom worlds.
Should the DM choose to introduce new weapons into his campaign, he is free to do so, and this section provides guidelines for accomplishing this goal. No different than the guidelines for creating homebrewed races or the guidelines in the core rulebooks for creating homebrewed monsters.
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The only significant difference between Advanced Weapon Training and the things you listed is that Advanced Weapon Training is a popular optional system.The difference is, like the rules for custom races, the rules for weapon creation include this line:
this section introduces rules for GMs to use as guidelines.These are not rules for players to tailor weapons to their characters, they are guidelines for GM's looking to delve into building custom worlds.
Should the DM choose to introduce new weapons into his campaign, he is free to do so, and this section provides guidelines for accomplishing this goal. No different than the guidelines for creating homebrewed races or the guidelines in the core rulebooks for creating homebrewed monsters.
Ok. For some reason I thought that Advanced Weapon Training did have a line similar to that, making to more of an optional ruleset like the Stamina rules. But looking back through Weapon Master's Handbook, it does not. So I'll concede the point and stop referring to finesseable as a "weapon quality," which is really what all of that was about.
You've focused in on that aspect, which has taken things away from the actual focus of the thread. Essentially, if the existence of Fighter's Finesse allows any weapon (that is in a weapon group) to be considered a "weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse," then it is vastly expanding that list of weapons, almost certainly unintentionally.
That has implications beyond just Agile. It means that a Rogue can select pretty much any weapon for Finesse Training, whether or not that particular Rogue can use Weapon Finesse with the weapon or not. It would make no sense for a Rogue to want to do that, unless they were planning to take levels of Fighter later in order to get Fighter's Finesse, but it would have some implications on the order of some builds.
I'm still of the opinion that a class feature which allows you to break a normal rule does not redefine the normal rule. A weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse is a weapon listed in Weapon Finesse or a weapon that specifically says it can be used with Weapon Finesse. The existence of a Fighter ability that allows it to use a weapon that can not normally, independent of that Fighter, be used with Weapon Finesse does not make that weapon, in general, sitting on a table being enhanced, a "weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse."
Otherwise, any rule anywhere, no matter how small or limited, would change lists like that. Say a monster existed that can finesse an Earthbreaker. That means somewhere in Golarion, someone can finesse an Earthbreaker. So by the logic of looking at Fighter's Finesse, that means an Earthbreaker is a weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse. Of course, Fighter's Finesse exists, so if you use that logic, it would already be considered as much.
I'll refer back one last time to the Bastard Sword FAQ, quoted this time.
Bastard Sword: Is this a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon?
A bastard sword is a one-handed weapon (although for some rules it blurs the line between a one-handed and a two-handed weapon).The physical properties of a bastard sword are that of a one-handed weapon. For example, its hardness, hit points, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on, are all that of a one-handed weapon.
For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it.
For example, if you are wielding it one-handed (which normally requires the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat), it is treated as a one-handed weapon; Power Attack only gets the one-handed bonus, you cannot use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.
If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.
An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.
Physically, the Bastard Sword is a one-handed weapon, which includes things like the Craft skill. Even if someone has an ability that treats it otherwise, it has a defined category for its physical properties.
I see no reason why finesse weapons wouldn't work similarly, other than that there is not currently an FAQ directly calling out that they do, and that "finessable" is not clearly listed on the weapon chart. But it's pretty clear to me how that aspect of it is supposed to work. Light weapons are finesse weapons, because Weapon Finesse tells us they are. Rapier, whip, and spiked chain are finesse weapons, because Weapon Finesse tells us they are. An Elven Curved Blade is a finesse weapon, because the description of Elven Curved Blade tells us it is. Etc. You don't look at a character's abilities to define what a weapon is. You look at the weapon. A Greatsword does not say that it is a finesseable weapon, and Weapon Finesse does not say that it is either, so it is not, regardless of how a particular character might be able to use it.
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using it for one handed weapon for thing like alchemical silver say that you take the most beneficial aspect of the weapon, but craft do not make a DC for one-handed or two-handed, the DC is for simple melee or thrown weapon, martial melee or thrown weapon and exotic melee or thrown weapon.
so for craft what categories it would fall, martial or exotic?
if we take the best categories it would be martial since the DC is lower
Adding a weapon enhancement that can only be placed on a one-handed weapon would seem to fall under Craft. Impact, for example, cannot be placed on a light weapon. Per the FAQ, a Bastard Sword is a one-handed weapon, so even if a particular character is allowed to treat it as a light weapon, that does not prevent Impact from being placed on it, because the actual weapon is a one-handed weapon with regards to the physical properties and the Craft skill, no matter how it is treated by any individual character.
The FAQ does not say take the lowest DC. It says this is what it is for these situations. Or are you saying Craft says somewhere to take the lowest DC? If it does, then that's a specific rule concerning crafting, and you should follow that.