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Hey everyone,
I'm playing a core game and my party needs a rogue. And I want to play a rogue. But I know it's a bit of a weak class.
I want to make my rogue memorable and handy in a fight.
So: how do I build a great rouge/fighter (using Core only) and should I prestige into Shadowdancer or Duelist?
Using 20 point build.
Any and all input welcome. If you know if a thread/link that already address this issue, please point me to it!
Thanks.
Are you set on rogue/fighter? Rogue/ranger would give you a lot more skill points.
How about you try the Slayer?
It's a Hybrid class for the Ranger & Rogue. You can also get Trapfinding through a Slayer Talent.
Unchained Rogue isn't particularly weak and is a fine melee combatant.
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How about you try the Slayer?
It's a Hybrid class for the Ranger & Rogue. You can also get Trapfinding through a Slayer Talent.
Core Only. :(
Hey everyone,
I'm playing a core game and my party needs a rogue. And I want to play a rogue. But I know it's a bit of a weak class.
I want to make my rogue memorable and handy in a fight.
So: how do I build a great rouge/fighter (using Core only) and should I prestige into Shadowdancer or Duelist?
Using 20 point build.
Any and all input welcome. If you know if a thread/link that already address this issue, please point me to it!
Thanks.
Are you confusing Wants with Needs? You need Water to live, You want bottled purified water.
Does the party want a rogue or are they saying this is a trap extensive adventure where traps are so brutal that nothing can go around them, disable them by other means, and/or just plow through them with a Barbarian and a Cleric using a wand of Cure light wounds.
Cause I have never had a Need for a rogue.
But if you really want to go that route then Take the First few levels as Rogue and Go Ranger.
Why ranger?
Favored Enemy is very nice, But Favored Terrain giving you Bonus to perception is a god send for your trap spotting. At level 2 you can easily grab up Power attack without needing Pre-reqs or any other feat that interests you. With 4 levels of Ranger you can use Spell completion/trigger Items from their list without a UMD check. A few good spells on that list would help put you over the top.
Another reason to go Ranger is Skills and Saves. Ranger has better saves than BOTH fighter and rogue. You also get to keep being the skill guy without dropping to 2+Int per level of the fighter. Lets also face it you will not need the Heavy armor that comes from the Fighter. With Light armor and Longstrider you can move at 40ft. Barkskin is good for building defenses on a budget. Freedom of Movement scrolls are cheap and last a nice long time to keep you from being grappled.
Shoot you may just want to consider Ranger.
Do you know if they will be using the old Core rules for Traps and Perceptions or is he going to Hose you all and use the updated rules for it?
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Sorry missed that. Personally, unless it is at least a 5 player game and the other 4 are pretty willing to carry your mostly dead weight in exchange for trap finding, and you enjoy skills a lot, I wouldn't play a core rogue.
If you want to be a skilled character, go with Bard.
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If you want to be a skilled character, go with Bard.
Yeah, Bards and Rangers tend to just perform better all around than Core only Rogues.
Ranger-Rogue is a classic combo. TWF style works better with sneak attacks.
How far do you expect the game to go, level-wise? The two classes have a bit of overlap (with respect to Evasion at Ranger 9), but if you don't think you'll get that far it's a good mix. I'd probably either treat the Rogue as a dip (for trapfinding) or advance the classes somewhat evenly.
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Ranger-Rogue is a classic combo. TWF style works better with sneak attacks.
How far do you expect the game to go, level-wise? The two classes have a bit of overlap (with respect to Evasion at Ranger 9), but if you don't think you'll get that far it's a good mix. I'd probably either treat the Rogue as a dip (for trapfinding) or advance the classes somewhat evenly.
We're looking at 16 levels.
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Let's assume that these are my first seven levels:
Rogue (trap finding is what is needed here)
Ranger
Ranger
Ranger (Feat: Sable Company Marine - hippogriff animal companion) Allowed because it's a Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign.
Ranger
Ranger
etc..
So the build I'm going for is sneaky, flying mounted (sometimes)...
AND I want to go melee rather than ranged.
What's next?
Do I prestige into Duelist?
Do I prestige into Shadowdancer?
Do I just go ranger all the way up?
Why not just go straight Ranger then, and save yourself the trouble? They can certainly pull off the sneak aspects like a Rogue, and if you REALLY need Trapfinding & hate Ranger spellcasting, then you can take the Trapper archetype.
Bard is also a great alternative, especially the Archaeologist archetype, if allowed. With that archetype, you're basically a spellcasting Rogue in all but name.
Why not just go straight Ranger then, and save yourself the trouble? They can certainly pull off the sneak aspects like a Rogue, and if you REALLY need Trapfinding & hate Ranger spellcasting, then you can take the Trapper archetype.
Bard is also a great alternative, especially the Archaeologist archetype, if allowed. With that archetype, you're basically a spellcasting Rogue in all but name.
He can't. He's Core only.
So the build I'm going for is sneaky, flying mounted (sometimes)...
AND I want to go melee rather than ranged.
What's next?
Do I prestige into Duelist?
Do I prestige into Shadowdancer?
Do I just go ranger all the way up?
I'd suggest pure Ranger after your Rogue dip. Your mount will only level up when you take ranks of Ranger, and it's already a few levels behind what a druid would get, and you don't have access to any of the non-Core build features that would boost it, so if you switch to Duellist you'll eventually be riding a creature that's ten levels below you.
(I'd also suggest in your initial build: Int 8, Charisma 7. You'll still have enough skill points for key abilities - Stealth, Perception, Disable Device, Acrobatics. And you'll have enough points left over for all your other stats. Also, favored enemies: Humans and Undead. There aren't many APs that doesn't have lots of undead.)
What do you need the rogue for specifically?
You might want to consider making a caster built for rogue-ish things. Something like a Cleric of Trickery, or a Wizard, or even a Bard. It might be fun to show up with a character nobody was expecting, and yet meet all the requirements :D
Find Traps (clr2)
Detect Secret Doors (wiz1)
Just something to think about. Maybe slap together a few builds (pick feats up to level 20, etc) and see what sparks your imagination.
You can just take the Mount to have a nice mount. I really like a spitting camel...sickened condition is funny.
But you can also choose a bird/dog to help you scout out an area. As they are common animals for a City (Curse of the Crimson Throne) Speak with animal is a 1st level spell. Especially since Boon Companion is not Core only, sadly.
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Okay...I'm reading all your comments. The direction I'm leaning is this:
Rogue (1)
Ranger (5)
Barbarian (4)
Shadowdancer (7)
Sub-optimal perhaps, but flavourful.
So if you can still help me despite the dogs-breakfast of multiclassing, I need your help on CORE ONLY Feats.
My focus(es) are...
Ranged
Weapon Finesse
In short: dex based feats that will help in combat/archery.
The feats I already have in mind are: PBS, Precise Shot, Weapon Finesse, Sable Company Marine.
Any other dex based feats to help my sneaky/dexterous archer/shadowjumper?
So you want to ride a flying mount and jump around between shadows? I don't see these two things working together, one or the other would be fine, trying to do both probably means you will suck at both. At level 16 what are you going to do with your 4 HD Hippogriff?
I don't see the point of the barbarian levels either.
Personally, I wouldn't bother with weapon finesse, Rapid shot and many shot are obvious choices though. Improved Precise Shot is good too.
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So you want to ride a flying mount and jump around between shadows? I don't see these two things working together, one or the other would be fine, trying to do both probably means you will suck at both. At level 16 what are you going to do with your 4 HD Hippogriff?
I don't see the point of the barbarian levels either.
Personally, I wouldn't bother with weapon finesse, Rapid shot and many shot are obvious choices though. Improved Precise Shot is good too.
Fair points.
Having a flying mount will be fun for a while. And as long as I'm 80' off the ground, I can shadowjump down off of it. :)
All that said, maybe a straight Rogue 1/Ranger 16 is the easist build (and keeps my flying mount tenable).
The barbarian levels actually sync nicely with the shadowdancer uncanny dodge bump, and get rid of the repetitive Ranger abilities. How many favoured enemies do you need? :) As for the other ranger abilities like camofluage etc, the shadowdancer gets hide in plain sight. So it's simply better, faster.
All that said, I know it's a dog's breakfast, but it's not wholly illogical which is why I'm toying with it still.
Most Players I play with Have not liked Shadowdancer in play. THe last guy used Ranger to Qualify and ended up retraining back to pure ranger and was much more effective.
It looks cool on paper and flavor wise but in play it sadly disappoints most people. Like most PrCs
Having a flying mount will be fun for a while.Actually, you won't ever have a flying mount, since you can't ride it until you reach Ranger 8.
And as long as I'm 80' off the ground, I can shadowjump down off of it.
If you are in dim and going to dim light, with a standard action that ends your turn. And you would have to, because if you could ride it, you had better get off that Hippogriff fast before it gets killed.
The barbarian levels actually sync nicely with the shadowdancer uncanny dodge bump,
You are going to be maximizing perception, have a high dex and fighting at range. How often do you think you would end up using Uncanny dodge?
How many favoured enemies do you need?Ummm. Unless the campaign is totally focused on a single type of bad guy, all of them would be nice. Beyond that, even if you are facing only one type of bad guy, having the bonus against that bad guy go up is pretty awesome.
As for the other ranger abilities like camofluage etc, the shadowdancer gets hide in plain sight.
Most of the 'random' Ranger abilities are indeed pretty situational and crappy. I think you are forgetting spells though, which make up for a whole lot. Also, what is really the point of hide in plain sight for an archery character that has a whole 1d6 of sneak attack? Are you really going to want to give up a full attack in exchange for hiding?
Not trying to ruin your fun, but this concept is just a mess, and I think you would find if you actually tried to play it you couldn't do any of the things you imagine it doing.
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Suggestions:
* If multiclass, make 1st-level in a martial for maximum hitpoints.
* 15,14,12,12,12,12 is the most bonus-dense 20pt "no dump" array
* 15,14,14,14,12,07 is the most bonus-dense 20pt "one dump" array
* 17,12,12,12,12,07 is the most bonus-dense 20pt specialized array
* There will be traps and AoE galore in APs; rogue is a fine choice.
* Don't go Sable Company Marine; without access to splatbook feats (such as Boon Companion), that hippogriff will be quite weak compared to anything a druid can run around with.
~ ~ ~
What do you need the rogue for specifically?
A rogue with the Trap Spotter talent gets automatic Perception checks whenever coming within 10' of a trap; those spells above have 1min/lvl durations, and are therefore not terribly useful in a run-on-forever dungeon crawl. Even when situationally appropriate, they're a thing that needs to be memorized (how many slots for it? 1?) instead of something else, then cast (instead of something else) at the time. Basically it just doesn't happen the way you want that often. Meanwhile, the rogue just motors along without any of the headaches limited-uses-per-day classes are continually frustrated by.
Aside from that, the OP specifically wants to play a rogue.
~ ~ ~
Core rogue
halfling (15,14,12,12,12,12 array)
STR-10 (2)
DEX+17 (7)
CON:12 (2)
INT:14 (5)
WIS:12 (2)
CHA+14 (2)
01 ranger1 Track, martial proficiency, medium armor proficiency, spell list
...unless there's a druid or ranger already in the party, there might be no one capable of tracking, and that can be a pretty big deal when trying to solve AP mysteries.
02 ...now go all rogue (with the exception of one more ranger dip for probably Archery:Rapid Shot), or all ranger (with the exception of one more rogue level for Evasion), or rogue4/ranger2/(fighter or barbarian martial asskicker).
Exploit: You won't need to UMD-check to activate wands and scrolls of spells on the ranger list; you just cast them.
Feats: TWF, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise (K.I.S.S. principle at work here; goal is to be very durable and not a drain on party healing resources. You are not trying to be as destructive as a fighter. You have 10 skills/level to splash around.)
01 rang1 [track], Weapon Finesse
02 rogu1 [SA+1d6]
03 rogu2 [Talent:Trap Spotter], Two Weapon Fighting
04 rang2 [Archery:Rapid Shot]
05 rogu3 [SA+2d6], Dodge
06 rogu4 [Talent:combat trick:Mobility]
07 rogu5 [SA+3d6], Spring Attack
08 rogu6 [Talent:???]
09 rogu7 [SA+4d6], FEAT(g)
10 rogu8 [Talent:???]
11 rogu9 [SA+5d6], FEAT(g)
12 rog10 [Advanced Talent:Skill Mastery(Acrobatics,Disable,Perception,Diplomacy,etc)]
13 (etc)
He can't. He's Core only.Why not just go straight Ranger then, and save yourself the trouble? They can certainly pull off the sneak aspects like a Rogue, and if you REALLY need Trapfinding & hate Ranger spellcasting, then you can take the Trapper archetype.
Bard is also a great alternative, especially the Archaeologist archetype, if allowed. With that archetype, you're basically a spellcasting Rogue in all but name.
Even with only Core,the base Bard and Ranger classes are great Rogue-alternatives that can pull Roguish stuff off way better while still being incredibly useful to the party.
Even a Barbarian could probably pull it off better than a Core Rogue (though having access to non-core stuff certainly helps replacing the Rogue).
And when traps are your only problem, just play Wizard and use a Mount spell or something as a meatshield to set off traps for free. You also have stuff like Open/Close as a cantrip, and Knock as a spell. Wizards, as always, can replace any class, or at least make them obsolete.
Edit: For a core Rogue/Warrior? Elven Curved Blade wielding Rogue/Fighter 4. DEX to strike, some STR and Specialization and Power Attack with a deadly sword for damage.