Ockies so I'm DMing (woe is me) for context I use pathfinder pantheons and outer dimensions I just don't use Golarion itself because I know very little about the geography and political climate.
So I made my own continent with its own political climate and one of the main issues of the setting is a vast forest which acts as a connection to the first world, so fey are a big theme in some of the major themes of the settlement. One kingdoms has a norn as an adviser for example.
Now where the players will be starting is a heavily forested kingdom thats main export is oak, the closest comparison I can think of is house forester from tell tale games game of thrones, but like much bigger, more influential and way more prosperous.
Now said kingdom's political climate is on a knife edge with a couple of the more powerful noble families vying from control after the previous royal line died out. The power behind the throne actually being a rather devious hedge witch who is playing them off against each other after actually being the reason the previous line died out. She intends to take control on the kingdom in the ashes so that she may pursue her own coven based ends. For now however she is simply acting as a "neutral" mediator and adviser to the noble families at large as she was previously adviser to the aforementioned royal family.
All this is relevant because my players are telling me they want politics and intrigue in their campaign as well as the usual fighty fighty stuff. Also I much prefer making a complex setting to running a game so thats that.
Now the players are a druid who plans to turn into a bear and eat things in combat, I think he has a 16 in wis so probably will do some control but I don't anticipate impressive DCs. Who consistently makes in-effective druids so I'm a bit dubious about him. We have a illusionist wizard, who has only ever played a telekineticist for about 4 levels and a paladin for a couple one shots, so I'm highly dubious over his ability to manage a prepared caster who relies almost exclusively on his spells. And on top of that he picked illusions .-. stress. I'm an open minded DM when it comes to illusions and think he needs all the help he can get so I'm not planning to say nope to much but yeah. I still hope he doesn't find himself useless. Finally we have a fire kineticist who I think will be perfectly good at what he does. They're starting at 5 so that A - the druid can have natural spell going from the start, because apparently he wants that. B - the main reason, I want to give the wizard a chance to not instantly be out of spells.
Now I'm thinking about how the PCs will meet eachother.
My current plan is to have the wizard be going to meet a colleague and be on a trade caravan heading for the aforementioned city. I plan to have it be raided by bandits.
I'm thinking of having the gate keepers when this all starts happening, he will here a ruckus going on in the distance (heavily wooded area, so they bandits can be attacking from round a bend with the cover of trees, however not far enough away that they couldn't be heard. The guards won't intervene as they will have been paid off. If the players think about it they may realize this is the first sign of corruption within the city they will encounter. So the kineticist player will have the choice to intervene should they desire and if not they will be standing with the guards when the wizard pulls up to the gate with his cart and a possible social confrontation will go on there with the guards having done nothing. Hopefully the PCs will interact at which point.
Similarly I'm thinking of having the druid skulking around at the same time, this character is big into emeralds and also spent almost all his life in seclusion, so I am planning the reason he is there is that he went in search of the emerald city only to find that the city gained its name for the green leaves of the oak trees, their main export, not the gem stones. Hence he is skulking disappointedly outside at the time of the ambush and will also have chance to intervene.
Now the wizard colleague's field of research is Golems, and he is interested in trying to make gemstone Golems hence the druid will have a hook to go with the wizard inside the city. I am bit unclear as to why the fire kineticist will join them. There is in his backstory a theme of gullibility and a string of unfortunate events following his seeking gainful employment so perhaps he will do the same with the wizard guy the player in question is quite co-operative usually so I'm thinking it will be fine.
When they get to the wizard however (should something happen on the way? any ideas here would be great) they will find that he seems glassy eyed and distracted and no longer interested in his research. Instead he is no entwined in a political plot, in which a powerful hedge witch is trying to take control of the city to build a coven with eyes on the fey forest to the north. He has a new partner in a Danthienne who has be thrown from the royal court after the royal line dried up, by none other than said hedge witch. She was acting as a representative of the fey royalty residing on the forest.
She has now worked her charm magic and used her high social skills to manipulate the wizard into helping her reveal this witches' plans. The wizard is offering his store of gems as a reward. She got him to ask his colleague here in the hopes that he could help with this problem and will be more than happy to add the other PCs to the pay roll.
Now this is where I hit a blank the question is what should they do to start exposing this, I'm thinking of her pointing them back to corruption with the guards and following that up. Also trying to connect with the thieves guild. Possibly finding a loyalist faction committed to exposing what the witch did to the previous royal family. Possibly pick one of the other noble families to champion, or to try and make them build bridges and ally against the witch. In the end if they fail to stop the witches plan she will begin recruiting and kidnapping to build a coven and they will be encouraged to leave and ally with another city on the government or royal family on the continent, so that they can invade and stop the witch before she starts a war with the fey or worse an alliance through the power of her coven. If they succeed and stop her then I'm thinking the city gets invaded either by the fey or another government royal family seeing that the forest one is weak and disorganized.
anyone got any suggestions? what threads to follow, which plots to explore, what fights to have where? I've got the beginning, and the end planned, and a rough idea of the middle, but I want a more clear idea of the different plot hooks and threads they might be able to follow through the middle to get to the end.
Sorry for the absolute wall of text and the inevitable typos. Not really clear on how to spell kineticists honestly xD
Interesting campaign. I will post some thoughts once I have time to digest what you have written.
Didn't think anyone would respond to this once I actually saw what a waffley wall of nonesense it was xD
thanks for taking the time to read it.
I'd suggest rescuing someone - perhaps one of the first of those kidnapped/recruited by the witch - as a hook to get basically good PCs involved. Perhaps keep them around as a useful contact (sage information, thief contacts, noble contacts, whichever seems most useful/appropriate) assuming success. A face they can imagine is probably better than a general principle.
You've got what sounds like two goons who can fight without having to drag around heavy armor/weapons, and an illusionist wizard. No one who can handle magical traps and maybe no one who's stealthy when not invisible, but they may be able to socially engineer their way into places. Plan for them wanting to do that and support it.
oooo good idea
maybe another fey that was a diplomatic partner of Danthienne any suggestions for the particular type would be interesting.
I'm thinking that saving the fey is a good idea though, she could be being held by one of the lords that the witch has convinced she is backing covertly. Of course she'll be doing the same with the other guy xD.
Bump before bed time.
You've gotten a rough idea of how the party meets laid down.
Now comes the tough part:
No plan survives contact with the PCs
Be ready to improvise and adjust, and don't hold any cows sacred to get the party together.
Further, keep it seamless, so the illusion of player agency is preserved.
If you pull it off, you may not even need to go to extremes to get the party to 'gel'.
I'm following this with interest. But as I'm rather tipsy right now, I can't really gather my thoughts, for any complex campaign planning ^^'
Random thought: Create a handful of Npc's and scatter them about the institutions, families and factions of the city. These all have small pieces of the puzzle of the hedge witches rise to "a power behind the throne". They are all keeping quite until being approached (for different reasons: guilty, fear and so on) by the party, mostly out of fear of exposure. They then confess what they know to the party and pledge to act as spies for them in their respective positions (this could be really useful if they later on have to attack the city, as a way to gain secret reconnaissance).
Thoughts
1. Why is the former court wizard so fixated on this?
2. Why is her colleague helping her?
3. The easiest way to at least stop the witch would be to show that she's not unbiased to the different noble houses
4. Ultimately I assume they are going to find out and then try to prove that the witch is behind the fall of the last leader. In this case making her assassin would make a good recurring villain. Perhaps they have to complete objectives before he can get rid of the evidence
5. Do you think your players will ally with a noble house or merely try and avoid war between them as a 3rd party? That seems to be the biggest real decision they can make
6. How did she eliminate the last royal line? Also what was done with their bodies? The answer to these can easily make for a good quest. A royal crypt can make a really fun dungeon
7. I've found for intrigue the most important part of NPCs is motivation. Usually asking questions about why will lead to interesting plot hooks
Here is an idea:
The witch writes a prophecy, vaguely worded and totally fake of course. The prophecy hints that the key to the throne is one of the PCs and their companions. Don't worry if any of the PCs die along the way because new details can come to light as the campaign evolves. The prophecy is a red herring intended to distract the noble houses while the witch executes her real plan. Unfortunately for the witch the noble families embrace the prophecy too eagerly and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy where the PCs really do influence who will take the throne. This will eventually force the witch's hand resulting in the end of campaign boss fight.
From a metagaming perspective the prophecy is simply a mechanism to ensure that the PCs stay embroiled in the court intrigue.
You've gotten a rough idea of how the party meets laid down.
Now comes the tough part:
No plan survives contact with the PCs
Be ready to improvise and adjust, and don't hold any cows sacred to get the party together.
Further, keep it seamless, so the illusion of player agency is preserved.
If you pull it off, you may not even need to go to extremes to get the party to 'gel'.
Thanks xD for the errm words of wisdom. I'm not actually too worried about them meeting up together anymore. I have no sacred cows in this plan really, there are other bits of the setting I care about more but still XD
I'm following this with interest. But as I'm rather tipsy right now, I can't really gather my thoughts, for any complex campaign planning ^^'
good for you! xD
Random thought: Create a handful of Npc's and scatter them about the institutions, families and factions of the city. These all have small pieces of the puzzle of the hedge witches rise to "a power behind the throne". They are all keeping quite until being approached (for different reasons: guilty, fear and so on) by the party, mostly out of fear of exposure. They then confess what they know to the party and pledge to act as spies for them in their respective positions (this could be really useful if they later on have to attack the city, as a way to gain secret reconnaissance).
Dis sounds like a fun idea, probably have one going round dominated and being a bit vacant constantly too xD because that could be fun.
Thoughts
1. Why is the former court wizard so fixated on this?
he isn't a court wizard, he is just a wizard thats been charmed by a Danthienne, a fey from the court, who is a representative of the fey in the court. I get the impression you might not have understood big chunks of what I wrote.
2. Why is her colleague helping her?
I don't know what you're talking about, the only she in the whole thing is the witch and Danthienne.
3. The easiest way to at least stop the witch would be to show that she's not unbiased to the different noble houses
you're assuming that would be easy. The witch could easily tell party a that she is working for party b as an informant and vice versa whilst appearing neutral to the rest of the world. Everyone likes to assume they're the ones doing the sneaky clever stuff, appeal to a nobleman's ego.
4. Ultimately I assume they are going to find out and then try to prove that the witch is behind the fall of the last leader. In this case making her assassin would make a good recurring villain. Perhaps they have to complete objectives before he can get rid of the evidence
Making her assassin? what do you mean? anyway I don't really mind how they go about taking her down, its leading them to that point thats difficult. Although I don't think this is a good idea.
5. Do you think your players will ally with a noble house or merely try and avoid war between them as a 3rd party? That seems to be the biggest real decision they can make
Up to them. One of the noble's will be more manipulative and appear nicer than the other but neither are particularly good guys.
6. How did she eliminate the last royal line? Also what was done with their bodies? The answer to these can easily make for a good quest. A royal crypt can make a really fun dungeon
she cursed them with infertility.
7. I've found for intrigue the most important part of NPCs is motivation. Usually asking questions about why will lead to interesting plot hooks
Coven > Control of the fey > continental dominance. A bit like Baba Yaga but much less powerful and much more manipulative.
Here is an idea:
The witch writes a prophecy,
I think her writing the prophecy might be attracting a bit too much attention to herself for her style but she might "find" one.
vaguely worded and totally fake of course. The prophecy hints that the key to the throne is one of the PCs and their companions. Don't worry if any of the PCs die along the way because new details can come to light as the campaign evolves. The prophecy is a red herring intended to distract the noble houses while the witch executes her real plan.
I suppose she could also use it to alienate the houses from the PCs depending on how things are going for her
Unfortunately for the witch the noble families embrace the prophecy too eagerly and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy where the PCs really do influence who will take the throne. This will eventually force the witch's hand resulting in the end of campaign boss fight.From a metagaming perspective the prophecy is simply a mechanism to ensure that the PCs stay embroiled in the court intrigue.
this part I'm not quite so fond of, one of the players has vocally objected to being in a the chosen one campaign so whilst I don't mind doing a fake prophecy I do want it to end with it quite clear that it was in fact fake. I think if I did a "oh it was all self forefilling" it might come across as me trying to subvert what the player asked for.
I think I might have the players run into where the witch "found" the prophecy and "find" that its nothing at all after she uses it to turn the nobles against the PCs. or at least, one of the noble families, depending on if the PCs make allies of one house.
You could have the PCs know the prophecy is fake because it has numerous details about them that they know are not true. Proving it is a fake to the noble houses might be harder.
Oooo good idea.
It would be interesting if one of the noble house were secretly descended from the fey or fey in disguise and the witch didn't know.
I think the closest I'd get to doing that is maybe when the houses eventually come to blows, either with eachother or with neighboring governments, a surviving younger member of the family might manifest a fey bloodline of some type or variety.
Could do a whole restoration type plot
Ockies so I'm DMing (woe is me) for context I use pathfinder pantheons and outer dimensions I just don't use Golarion itself because I know very little about the geography and political climate.So I made my own continent with its own political climate and one of the main issues of the setting is a vast forest which acts as a connection to the first world, so fey are a big theme in some of the major themes of the settlement. One kingdoms has a norn as an adviser for example.
Now where the players will be starting is a heavily forested kingdom thats main export is oak, the closest comparison I can think of is house forester from tell tale games game of thrones, but like much bigger, more influential and way more prosperous.
Now said kingdom's political climate is on a knife edge with a couple of the more powerful noble families vying from control after the previous royal line died out. The power behind the throne actually being a rather devious hedge witch who is playing them off against each other after actually being the reason the previous line died out. She intends to take control on the kingdom in the ashes so that she may pursue her own coven based ends. For now however she is simply acting as a "neutral" mediator and adviser to the noble families at large as she was previously adviser to the aforementioned royal family.
All this is relevant because my players are telling me they want politics and intrigue in their campaign as well as the usual fighty fighty stuff. Also I much prefer making a complex setting to running a game so thats that.
Now the players are a druid who plans to turn into a bear and eat things in combat, I think he has a 16 in wis so probably will do some control but I don't anticipate impressive DCs. Who consistently makes in-effective druids so I'm a bit dubious about him. We have a illusionist wizard, who has only ever played a telekineticist for about 4 levels and a paladin for a couple one shots, so I'm highly dubious over his ability to manage a prepared...
You note that the starting level will be 5th, what level do you expect the PCs to be at the end of this story arc? I ask this generally since you seem mostly concerned about the middle to end of the story arc.
Concerning the hedge witch, since I would imagine this is a NPC that will be discussed extensively it might help to know her name, so don't have to call her hedge witch all the time. You mention she cursed the previous family line with infertility and waited for them all to die. What race is she? How long has she been manipulating the political scene at
From what I can tell in order to create a coven there needs to be at least one Hag Coven, unless you mean coven in a more general sense as in a group of witches. Either way though, I'd imagine that a witch or group of witches would be delighted to have a hag among them. A green hag, perhaps with some class levels could work. A night hag could work too if the story arc goes high enough level. It's especially interesting since they enjoy killing slowly, kind of fits in with the Hedge Witch's plan. Since hags I'm pretty sure that in some versions of D&D hags are giants so why not have some trolls around, it'd make the fire Kineticist happy. :P
It would help to know more about the noble families and how they are being manipulated. Since the old noble family died out from old age why didn't they appoint a successor? Perhaps this named successor has been kidnapped or killed? Maybe that night had is slowly taking his soul, perhaps as a payment for joining hedge witch's coven? I would imagine that each noble family has an area of influence, such as logging, carpentry, furniture making ect... perhaps the manipulation is also causing the noble houses to suspect foul play in a business sense and not just political? Perhaps the lumber family is secretly selling the choicest lumber to the one to the competing houses (like competing furniture houses).
Also I'd like to know more about the bandits, are they secretly working for the Hedge Witch or is it unrelated? Perhaps they miscalculated the arrival of the caravan and had to make an impromptu attack closer to town than they would have liked?
Concerning Danthienne what race is she, is she fey? Does she have class levels? How about the wizard colleague, race and level please?
What kind of criteria are you using to determine if the PCs fail? A certain number of failure before a certain number of successes? A time limit? All by ear?
Edit: What kind of political set up does the city/kingdom have? While an autocracy is probably the go to A single individual chosen by the people rules the community. This leader’s actual title can vary—mayor, burgomaster, lord, or even royal titles like duke or prince are common. A Council could work too, A group of councilors, often composed of guild masters or members of the aristocracy, leads the settlement. This could give more room for the other royal families to maneuver.
Its pretty hard to say without knowing how many threads of story I'll have or how to weave combat into them so I don't know basically.
I consider everything after they meet the Danthienne to be middle so yeah, I am mostly concerned with middle xD.
I don't have a name for her yet.
I'd basically chucked out the hag rule because I find it awkward (witches can't have covens on their own but can be easily more powerful than any hag so it doesn't make sense to me). I could make her a hag sure but I'm not too familiar with them and I'm s*&+ at tacking class levels onto monsters so it all seemed like a lot of work when I was considering doing it :/. Making a deal with some neighboring giant kin could a nice idea though. Especially if the PCs manage to turn one of the houses to their side. Make for a nice little battle. Or big battle I suppose.
The old family was the crowned nobility in the area, it was a bloodline thing hence with the infertility thing from the witch there is no successor. Family died out the two most influential families remain to pick up the pieces. I'm thinking one can be more of a militaristic family and the other be more responsible for exportation of oak, so therefore more wealthy. So you've got martial rule being threatened but with the threat of poverty if the martial family take control. This is because the a lot of this kingdom/city's food comes from exports from another government run city, which is more pastoral and their trade deals are connected with the family that does the oak trade.
I have had on the backburner the idea that the more trade based family has through an allegiance with yet another kingdom been trying to bully some of the more northern kingdoms which has been provoking some small skirmishes on their borders so that corruption could be unveiled.
The bandits I've thought could actually be connected to the witch or the militaristic family, either works, bottom line, they'd be hampering in coming trade which hurts the more trade based family. They could even have a note on them signed by whomever their boss is. Could be working for the military family on the Witches advice.
A Danthienne is a race of fey. XD so yeah she's fey. The Wizard colleague is human, venerable and of an appropriate level to be making constructs, not sure what that is, need to look it up.
All by ear was the plan for the PCs to fail, it doesn't really matter either way as I have plans for both eventuality. I suppose if they fail it leads to them exploring more of the setting than they might in a success but other than that its not big deal.
So yeah I wanted to be realistic as to the consequences of their efforts rather than doing like a score card type scenario.
I have found it actually works better to have the players come up with the reasons they are a team, rather than the GM or hoping that they will form a team during the game. One, this forces the players to actually think about that, and makes it more likely that they will end up with characters that can work together. Two, sometimes a GM interfering in a characters backstory and telling them what their character did (even when it is just putting them somewhere for the plot to hook them) can really go against a players concept for the character and cause resentments. And three, not railroading a backstory, including how the band got together, helps me personally to avoid not railroading the game itself, and give me a lot of insight into what the players believe would motivate their characters. Since they will have a pretty incomplete understanding of the world compared to you, you might have to fill in some details and expand on thing.
I would be concerned about the initial hook you have planned. Basically you have an evil witch opposed by an evil fey (at least I would interpret mind controlling someone to bankroll my revolution as evil) and I could see a lot of parties just deciding that neither side was worth fighting for. Also, in an intrigue based game I probably wouldn't want to reveal right in the beginning who the big bad was. The PCs not knowing that the trusted mediator who is the only thing keeping the country from falling apart is actually the big bad until they find some evidence seems too good for me to pass up.
I have found it actually works better to have the players come up with the reasons they are a team, rather than the GM or hoping that they will form a team during the game.
I have actually asked them about doing this because I think it's a better way too but well it didn't go well.
For one they seemed to find it hard to wrap their head around the idea and thought it meant they had to be in each other's back stories extensively. Then when that was cleared up they just sort of stared blankly at me and eachother and said they didn't know. I asked them to talk to eachother online later whilst I wasn't there. Thinking maybe they felt awkward with me around. A week later none of them had done anything. So as much as I like this idea it doesn't work for these players sadly.And three, not railroading a backstory, including how the band got together, helps me personally to avoid not railroading the game itself,
Can you explain the cause and effect relationship here? Im a bit confused. Whilst I'm a bit stuck with having to engineer a meeting, I would like to avoid railroading pit falls where possible.
I would be concerned about the initial hook you have planned. Basically you have an evil witch opposed by an evil fey (at least I would interpret mind controlling someone to bankroll my revolution as evil)
I wouldn't. I'd call it utilitarianism, the one for the many whilst unsavoury is not in my book evil, especially when the one in question isn't even dead or hurt, he's just being manipulated. In order to prevent mass enslavement and a war .. I think it's fine.
and I could see a lot of parties just deciding that neither side was worth fighting for.
And aside from the utilitarian bit, they're not fighting for a side, they're fighting for a massive stockpile of gem stones, which is one of the characters main motivations, another being basically seeking gainful employment, which this is also. And the final getting his wizard friend back.
The players aren't fighting for a moral side, they aren't all good aligned(wizard is neutral and I think the Druid is too) so that wouldn't be the best motivation in my opinion. Loot is the way to motivate players in my experience.
Also, in an intrigue based game I probably wouldn't want to reveal right in the beginning who the big bad was. The PCs not knowing that the trusted mediator who is the only thing keeping the country from falling apart is actually the big bad until they find some evidence seems too good for me to pass up.
Hmmm an interesting point, maybe the witch excommunicated the fey through someone else she is black mailing/manipulating/dominating. What do you think? Better idea?
I'm not saying it would be a problem for you, but for me meddling with character backgrounds too much, putting them where I want them for 'my story' even at the start of the game has a tendency of getting me in the habit of doing it elsewhere, telling the story I want to tell, rather then letting the PCs build a story of their own. To an extent you have to do some setup of course, but if I use as light a hand as possible in that, it makes it easier for me to continue using a light touch.
As far as the evil of the basically mind controlling someone to take their stuff, I guess we will have to differ on that. A lesser evil is still evil in my book. For your ends justify the means argument, it seems that in your story, a war will happen in any event, and while the Witch is certainly evil and probably will be something of a despot, I don't see anything in what you wrote that would lead to mass enslavement. In any event, it matters less if you don't expect the party will care about the morality of their employer.
If they are just fighting for money (and the whole 'if the cash is there, we do not care' campaign can certainly work) then I would expect them to at least explore the possibility of deciding to work FOR the witch. Since she seems to be winning, it seems like the smarter and more lucrative thing to do. Given that this nation seems to be surrounded by enemies just looking for any weakness, supporting the strongest leader seems like something a moral ambiguous person could justify without difficulty.
The interest of the witch being evil, and waiting on that reveal kind of hinges on the PCs caring that the witch is evil. An intrigue game with a motive of nothing but earning money, rather than a cause is something that I don't really have a good grasp on how it would work, so I guess I'm pretty stuck giving any further advice.
I'm not saying it would be a problem for you, but for me meddling with character backgrounds too much, putting them where I want them for 'my story' even at the start of the game has a tendency of getting me in the habit of doing it elsewhere, telling the story I want to tell, rather then letting the PCs build a story of their own. To an extent you have to do some setup of course, but if I use as light a hand as possible in that, it makes it easier for me to continue using a light touch.
That's fair, sadly I don't feel as though I have much choice, I need them to be a party so that has to happen somehow and sadly they aren't doing it themselves so what else am I to do.
As far as the evil of the basically mind controlling someone to take their stuff, I guess we will have to differ on that. A lesser evil is still evil in my book.
I guess I prefer to look at the big picture, the attitude you have is one I recognise from a lot of Heroic character which I find kind of frustratingly short sited. Although I think my players might agree with you IRL, don't know if they will in character.
For your ends justify the means argument, it seems that in your story, a war will happen in any event,
But the fey (and players) don't know that. As far as she is concerned she is saving the fey from falling under the witches yoke as well as the city's civilians from going through a potential civil war.
and while the Witch is certainly evil and probably will be something of a despot, I don't see anything in what you wrote that would lead to mass enslavement. In any event, it matters less if you don't expect the party will care about the morality of their employer.
She'll do all sorts of things to get people to do as she wants, especially to fey or to protestors within the coven.
If they are just fighting for money (and the whole 'if the cash is there, we do not care' campaign can certainly work) then I would expect them to at least explore the possibility of deciding to work FOR the witch.
True, although I don't think they're evil, so they might do what you would call a lesser evil for loot, if they decided to help a true despot for loot I'd call that real evil.
Also the Druid is very explicitly looking for emeralds, and the wizard would in theory get his friend back from the fey. The only one who is going for pure loot is the kineticist. Although the witch could probably find some emeralds.
Since she seems to be winning, it seems like the smarter and more lucrative thing to do.
And capital E evil. Not that, that is a problem, don't mind them going that route, the only issue is she doesn't really need their help so hmmm what would you have her have them do if they came to her? I guess go kill the fey thing and then go to work on some errands and build trust. Maybe they betray her later on who knows. Heck this sounds fun actually although I think it would start them on the of evil route.
Given that this nation seems to be surrounded by enemies just looking for any weakness, supporting the strongest leader seems like something a moral ambiguous person could justify without difficulty.
I think I mislead you they're not surrounded by enemies they have 2 enemies to the north and one ally to the east, if the witch makes an enemy of the fey they gain a third enemy to the north. There are also 2 neutral cities on the continent, one to the north east and one just slightly north. Although they're in no position to help anyone.
The interest of the witch being evil, and waiting on that reveal kind of hinges on the PCs caring that the witch is evil. An intrigue game with a motive of nothing but earning money, rather than a cause is something that I don't really have a good grasp on how it would work, so I guess I'm pretty stuck giving any further advice.
Not nothing but loot they're neutral and good they may be initially attracted by loots but given a session or two they should uncover the scope of the danger thousands of people are in. I'm hoping they're interested in acting on this in some way, whether that means working with the fey, seeking allies in other cities, joining the witch as a double agent, working on their own within the city against her or anything else at all really. Including joining her. I don't mind so long as they do something.
Okay, having finally read your lay-out fully, I would offer the following advice.
If your player are having problem finding some common footing as a group, I would consider doing the following:
1: Target them. -> while very general, there nothing that bring people together as experiencing being targeted by "the man" (who ever he or she might be).
a: Have the corrupt guard demand an extra toll, every time they leave the city, enter special districts or the like. make sure that the amount collected is small enough, that they won't start a fight over it, but large enough that it will become an annoyance for them.
b: Have the guard demand random searches of "foreigners", especially when the political climate starts heating up.
c: Have hostel/inn/tavern owners insist that "they only have one room left som they'll have to share". Later on they might discover that the owner has been "asked" to do this by the guard, so that the "trouble-makers" are easier to pick up.
d: Have them see the guard questioning any shopkeeper they have bartered with. Give them the inclination that the questions are clearly about them.
E: Come up with your own ways of "targeting" the characters...
Stuff like that should give them pause in trusting anyone from the city, yet at the same time, give them plenty of reasons to think of their fellow adventures, as being more trustworthy. Furthermore it also motivate the character to mistrust the "city management" giving them all the more reason to see it "changed".
Now a question from me:
I'm not sure I understand the deal with the Danthienne.
Is she charming a college of the wizard character (who's also a wizard)?
(More advice may follow depending on laziness levels ^^)
Okay, having finally read your lay-out fully, I would offer the following advice.
If your player are having problem finding some common footing as a group, I would consider doing the following:
1: Target them. -> while very general, there nothing that bring people together as experiencing being targeted by "the man" (who ever he or she might be).
a: Have the corrupt guard demand an extra toll, every time they leave the city, enter special districts or the like. make sure that the amount collected is small enough, that they won't start a fight over it, but large enough that it will become an annoyance for them.
b: Have the guard demand random searches of "foreigners", especially when the political climate starts heating up.
c: Have hostel/inn/tavern owners insist that "they only have one room left som they'll have to share". Later on they might discover that the owner has been "asked" to do this by the guard, so that the "trouble-makers" are easier to pick up.
d: Have them see the guard questioning any shopkeeper they have bartered with. Give them the inclination that the questions are clearly about them.
E: Come up with your own ways of "targeting" the characters...Stuff like that should give them pause in trusting anyone from the city, yet at the same time, give them plenty of reasons to think of their fellow adventures, as being more trustworthy. Furthermore it also motivate the character to mistrust the "city management" giving them all the more reason to see it "changed".
All nice ideas I like :) thankyou, its these little details that really help the bigger picture work.
Just need them to first converge as a party. I ended up taking another run at asking them to come up with a reason why they know eachother, like Dave suggested. I reminded them of eachothers character back stories and motivation. It looked like it might work for about 30 minutes, the kineticist player went all proactive all of a sudden.
but not the wizard is saying his character needs more motivation to join in in their suggested arrangement and is yet to offer anything helpful to the discussion. I think its stalling out again. Very annoying.
Now a question from me:
I'm not sure I understand the deal with the Danthienne.
Is she charming a college of the wizard character (who's also a wizard)?(More advice may follow depending on laziness levels ^^)
yeah also using diplomacy on him. He is venerable and I maybe not as sharp as he once was if you catch my drift?
but not the wizard is saying his character needs more motivation to join in in their suggested arrangement and is yet to offer anything helpful to the discussion. I think its stalling out again. Very annoying.
If you have in mind a campaign where the PCs are going to be using intrigue and direct action to try and restore the 'proper' governance of a kingdom from an evil usurper, you need to tell the players that BEFORE they make characters, and it is their responsibility to make characters that will want to be of such a campaign. I'm not sure which side of that fell down here, but I suspect it is some of each, you not giving your players enough guidelines on what sort of themes the campaign is going to have, and them not really paying attention to what you did say.
It is of course possible to just throw them into the action and see what happens, and that can end up being very fun games. It can also end up being a total mess of a campaign that fizzles out after a few sessions.
At this point, if you want to get better player buy in, I would first confirm that this is a campaign theme your players are interested in, second, ask them if they need to rework their characters to 'fit' that theme better, and then specifically ask each player why their character is motivated to participate. It isn't your job to tell them why they are motivated to be involved in the action, it is theirs, and if they say their character wouldn't be, then the answer is they need to change or redo their character. If I say I am going to run a pirate game (and everyone agrees that that sounds fun) and you come to the table with a character that hates the sea, wants nothing to do with it, and only wants to be a political force in a landlocked kingdom, I'm going to tell you to try again.
You should be able to come up with a one or two sentence campaign theme that tells players what sort of characters to make without giving away any plot points. You can further add more detailed information if you wish, for example if you had decided that the church of Calistra was going to be a major player in the kingdom intrigues, then letting players know that divine characters would have some extra 'hooks' to the plot if they worshipped Calistra (while not requiring it) is a good thing to do. The Paizo APs do a pretty good job of this in the Player's Guides for their APs (which are free to download) and looking through a couple of them might give you some better ideas on how to give players information to make characters that will 'fit' the game you intend to run.
-Update
The parties introduction has been re-written with some painstakingly
gained player input and a bit of cajoling.
The players now all plan for their characters to have joined an archaeologists guild involved in the excavation of some ancient Elf settlement on the outside of the city the witch is taking control of. The druid says he is there looking for some jade and emerald jewelry that had been turned up previously. The Kineticist is their "blending" which makes me laugh. And the Wizard is their because some of the Elf pottery depicted imagery that resembled a Kasatha, which the wizard is. Now I'm planning bandits to run through the archaeological dig when making a getaway from raiding some trading carts. Possibly destroying the parties find in the process. Whilst being pursued by a cart owner's body guard, the cart owner injured back at his cart. Hopefully this should lead to an engagement, the bandits having a note on them signed with the seal of the militaristic family vying for the throne along with instructions to disrupt trade.
If they pursue this by going to the militaristic house they will be intercepted by an agent working for the fey who had been watching the bandits hide out after following the bandits from the militaristic noble house's base of operations. At which point they receive whomever's perspective of whats going on they visited and a job offer. If they go back to the archaeology guild then the guild master will send them to the trade family, in the hope that they might be able to help them confront the military nobility since both the archaeologists guild and the trading family were affected by the bandits.
if they do something else I'll have to improvise.
@Dave Justus, I've spoilered my reply to you so I didn't have to double post of confuse this one with a wall.
If you have in mind a campaign where the PCs are going to be using intrigue and direct action to try and restore the 'proper' governance of a kingdom from an evil usurper, you need to tell the players that BEFORE they make characters, and it is their responsibility to make characters that will want to be of such a campaign.
1) Caps serve no purpose what so ever other than to be obnoxious.
2) As I said in the OP, the players asked for intrigue before they made their characters, they made them with intrigue in mind.
I'm not sure which side of that fell down here, but I suspect it is some of each, you not giving your players enough guidelines on what sort of themes the campaign is going to have, and them not really paying attention to what you did say.
In respect to the specific quote you're addressing, neither.
The players were coming up with reasons why their characters would know eachother and how they would first meet. (I asked them to take another run at it). One player suggested a way, a second agreed, then the wizard said he didn't feel like his character was motivated enough to join their thing, but didn't offer any actual suggestions. Hence frustration. Through some tweaking of their suggestions on my end and some new additions to my setting it has been worked out now, happily.
It is of course possible to just throw them into the action and see what happens, and that can end up being very fun games. It can also end up being a total mess of a campaign that fizzles out after a few sessions.
I don't think that would really set the right tone for an intrigue game, unless by into the action you mean something different to what I'm assuming.
At this point, if you want to get better player buy in, I would first confirm that this is a campaign theme your players are interested in,
Done.
second, ask them if they need to rework their characters to 'fit' that theme better, and then specifically ask each player why their character is motivated to participate. It isn't your job to tell them why they are motivated to be involved in the action, it is theirs, and if they say their character wouldn't be, then the answer is they need to change or redo their character.
I agree with you but I'm dubious as to how successful this approach would be, the druid and the wizard in particular seem very attached to their characters. They just get caught up thinking "would my character do that" to the point of paralysis. They're new to playing and have watched a lot of Matt Colville and Critical role type media and I think they got an inflated idea of how critically important being exactly in character all the time is. Character development also seems alien to them for some reason.
If I say I am going to run a pirate game (and everyone agrees that that sounds fun) and you come to the table with a character that hates the sea, wants nothing to do with it, and only wants to be a political force in a landlocked kingdom, I'm going to tell you to try again.
I mean, I know you're using Hyperbole but that isn't really what any of them did. They didn't rock up with investigators, bards and investigators but they all invested in int and planned to get skills and stuff. I think they maybe don't realize how much easier they could make the intrigue stuff despite me telling them. The kineticist has offered to change but I think he is doing so out of a feeling of obligation, which I'm not really comfortable encouraging.
You should be able to come up with a one or two sentence campaign theme that tells players what sort of characters to make without giving away any plot points. You can further add more detailed information if you wish, for example if you had decided that the church of Calistra was going to be a major player in the kingdom intrigues, then letting players know that divine characters would have some extra 'hooks' to the plot if they worshipped Calistra (while not requiring it) is a good thing to do. The Paizo APs do a pretty good job of this in the Player's Guides for their APs (which are free to download) and looking through a couple of them might give you some better ideas on how to give players information to make characters that will 'fit' the game you intend to run.
What they know so far (and have known from inception) is it is a intrigue game that will require them to be able to perform in social encounters occasionally.
I don't really see what I should add to that description. I feel like, character want to do that stuff should be implied. Although I'm beginning to feel like maybe it wasn't
What they know so far (and have known from inception) is it is a intrigue game that will require them to be able to perform in social encounters occasionally.
I don't really see what I should add to that description. I feel like, character want to do that stuff should be implied. Although I'm beginning to feel like maybe it wasn't
I certainly don't want to preach at you, or come across like I don't think you are doing a good job. It is certainly easier to see this sort of problem in hindsight than it is before hand, and I screw up a lot at this sort of thing myself.
In my opinion, you gave them enough information to build a character mechanically to accomplish the tasks of the campaign, but not enough to give them any guidelines on how to build a character that will have motivations to be interested in the campaign. They have the 'how' but not the 'why'.
If you want them to be motivated by patriotic duty to the kingdom, or love of money, or anything else you have to give them some sort of indication of that. Alternatively of course you can just let them come up with any personal motivations they want, and create hooks designed for them, but that often means trying to build multiple different hooks for a single task, character A loves money, character B just wants to do the right thing, character C is hoping to become a political power, and character D is just interested in becoming famous for his martial prowess. It is of course possible to design hooks to interest these 3 people with three very different goals to do a job, but it can be difficult, and doing it constantly over the course of the campaign can be even more difficult.
Personally, I find that a more unified goal oriented party is more effective. That doesn't mean the character's have to all be the same but if they share a motivaton or have compatible motivations that tie into the main theme in addition to any other motivations their character has, it tends to go smoother.