If you apply the Reach Spell feat to any of the spells that give multiple touch attacks (converting them to ranged touch attacks), does that in any way limit the number of total ranged touch attacks you can use for a given spell combo?
For example, Reach Spell applied to the 2nd level spell Elemental Touch should still give me as many ranged touch attacks as I want to attempt due to the 1 Round/Level Duration?
Or Reach Spell applied to the 1st level spell Chill Touch ... allowing me to range touch attack up to 1 / CL?
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I'm just trying to understand if the conversion from Touch Attack to Ranged Touch Attack does any significant alteration to the spell's mechanics besides range.
Thank you!
No, all it changes is the range. Everything else stays the same.
I think you're correct in the case of Chill Touch: The only difference would be that instead of making melee touch attacks, you make ranged touch attacks at the proper range bracket for the number of spell levels you decided to increase the spell by.
Elemental Touch cannot be used with Reach Spell, however - it works somewhat differently than Chill Touch. Its range is "personal", and Reach Spell can only alter spells with ranges of "touch, close, or medium". While Chill Touch is an offensive touch spell, where the target is the enemy, Elemental Touch is a personal spell, where the target is yourself, that grants you the ability to make melee touch attacks for the duration.
Have a look at produce Flame.
It's a Hold a Charge Spell that has multiple charges and can be used for Ranged or Melee touch attacks.
No, Produce Flame is not a 'Hold a Charge' spell.
Produce Flame has no charges. What it has is a duration. You have evoked a self-renewing ball of fire in your palm. Unlike a spell with charges, you cannot use any other appendage to deliver your melee touch attack. Unlike a spell with charges, you cannot deliver it with an unarmed strike. It cannot be used with Magus Spellstrike, because it is not a spell with a range of touch.Produce Flame is its own thing. Looking at it does not help resolve Calth's contention.
The spell description for chill touch qualifies as "unless otherwise noted", I would think.
I honestly wouldn't have thought that reach spell would cause you to lose charges. I can see how you get there but when I initially read it, I thought that reach spell *just* changes the range, all other aspects of the spell remain the same. Meaning you could hold the charge. But RAW seems to be that by virtue of changing to range touch, you lose the ability to hold the changes. I'm not convinced that that is what was intended.
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My reading of the rules:
1) you can't hold chargers for a ranged touch, so unless there is a very explicit text allowing that, you get only 1 ranged attack, then the spell end.
2) Elemental Touch has a range of personal, not of touch. You can't apply the reach metamagic to it as it say "Spells that do not have a range of touch, close, or medium do not benefit from this feat."
Spells like elemental touch essentially give your hand/appendage a power. From my point of view with those spells you are not holding a charge. You get a specific effect that is applied to the appanage, like getting magic fang.
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I honestly wouldn't have thought that reach spell would cause you to lose charges. I can see how you get there but when I initially read it, I thought that reach spell *just* changes the range, all other aspects of the spell remain the same. Meaning you could hold the charge. But RAW seems to be that by virtue of changing to range touch, you lose the ability to hold the changes. I'm not convinced that that is what was intended.
Not all metamagic are equally effective when applied to different spells. My opinion is that you lose the charges. Reach, simply, is not meant to be applied to spell with multiple touches, it is mostly to be able to extend the range of some spell (like having a close range Breath of life).
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Chill Touch never once mentions holding a charge, it simply says you can use the attack up to one time per level. So, if you are using it normally, you cast the spell, and attempt a touch attack. If that fails, you would then move to the Holding the Charge rules. Once you discharge the spell, that would count as 'using' the attack, and you move to the next 'use'.
For a Reach version of the spell, as I see it, you cast the spell, and immediately try a Reach touch attack. Regardless of success or failure, you have 'used' the attack. Next round, you get to try again, as another 'use' of the spell.
Note that there are other spells that use the same wording, and I'd expect them to work the same way. Frostbite, for instance.
To provide the rules reference, it is in the Combat Section of the core rulebook and can be found on the PRD:
Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn.
Reach metamagic does not specify that you can hold the charge, so therefore using reach metamagic on a touch spell yields a single attack that may or may not hit and then all charges of the spell are lost.
The way that I read the bolded text is that in order to use the spell, you must make your ranged touch attack on your turn each round. The only time the spell ends early is if you fail to attempt to make said attack. Not that there is only one attack, period.
The other interpretation would make the reach spell feat so limited as to be mostly useless.
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So it follows the rules of holding the charge, which means if you change it to a ranged touch attack you cant hold the charge.
I disagree with your conclusion. That FAQ entry is asking if, in between 'charges' of a multi-charge touch spell, are you considered to be holding the charge, which then allows you to do things like make AoOs with a second 'charge' of the spell, even on a round when you've already used a 'charge'.
So, yes, I do agree that you aren't considered to be holding a charge with a multi-use ranged touch spell, so you don't threaten, and you don't discharge the spell if you touch something. But I still believe you will be able to utilise the spell multiple times, at range, as intended.
The other interpretation would make the reach spell feat so limited as to be mostly useless.
Silly hyperbole. The majority of touch spells do not have multi turn use and are not affected at all by this interpretation.
So it follows the rules of holding the charge, which means if you change it to a ranged touch attack you cant hold the charge.I disagree with your conclusion. That FAQ entry is asking if, in between 'charges' of a multi-charge touch spell, are you considered to be holding the charge, which then allows you to do things like make AoOs with a second 'charge' of the spell, even on a round when you've already used a 'charge'.
So, yes, I do agree that you aren't considered to be holding a charge with a multi-use ranged touch spell, so you don't threaten, and you don't discharge the spell if you touch something. But I still believe you will be able to utilise the spell multiple times, at range, as intended.
Agreed here. The simple use of the reach metamagic being wholly detrimental to a large category of spells that it qualifies for it something I don't think the designers looked at when issuing the FAQ.
"not being able to hold the charge" is a simple way of saying you can't delay your attacks with the ranged-touch spell -- if you don't make one, it's over -- but no where is there a statement saying changing a multi-use touch spell to a ranged touch spell makes it a one use spell.
Silly hyperbole. The majority of touch spells do not have multi turn use and are not affected at all by this interpretation.
The other interpretation would make the reach spell feat so limited as to be mostly useless.
True. My Myrmidarch finds Reach Shocking Grasps very useful with Ranged Spellstrike.