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Concerning the Pathfinder Savant, most recently from the adventurer's guide.
If my base class is a witch with an 'animals' patron.
1 Does esoteric magic mean to say I can add possession as a level 3 spell from the medium spell list (because it's on my spell list, too, albeit at level 5)?
2 And does it also mean to say that I could add fireball at level 3 from the wizard spell list (because I could 'use my base class to cast it', if only I would have had an elemental patron)?
3 And if that's true, does that mean that if my base class were psychic, I could add any spell of level 8 or lower without it increasing in level (because a psychic with the rebirth discipline could theoretically cast it)?
Please faq this if you agree that this needs to be clarified.
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1- I'm not sure it's a loophole. It might be intentional. Otherwise, when would you ever add a spell to your class spell list that's already on there?
2- I know it's not on the spell list, but the ability doesn't refer to the spell list. It says: "if this (the savant's) base spellcasting class could not normally cast that spell", which has a much wider interpretation than "if this base class has the spell on its class spell list". Also, if getting spells early (as in question 1) is not the intention of the ability, then perhaps this is? I'm honestly guessing, here.
3- see 2
4- Unless you're completely sure of what it means and what the intention might have been, please hit the faq button?
This does affect pfs, after all. A level 7 wizard* 5 / savant 2 could cast possession this way if 1 is true.
*or witch or arcanist or sorcerer or psychic
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I don't think early access is ever intended by just about any ability to anything, unless it explicitly spells it out. Ranger combat styles are something that clearly intends early access for example.
I'm fairly sure Samsarans are such rare boons in PFS because of that silly racial trait.
The bona fide use case for taking spells that are already available in your own class would be for spontaneous casters looking for more Spells Known.
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The bona fide use case for taking spells that are already available in your own class would be for spontaneous casters looking for more Spells Known.
Except that they don't get more spells known. They get more spells on their class spell list. They still have to select them as spells known via normal means.
"Esoteric Magic (Ex): At each class level beyond 1st, the Pathfinder savant chooses a spell from any class’s spell list and thereafter treats that spell as if it were on the spell list of the base spellcasting class for which he has the most levels ; if this base spellcasting class could not normally cast that spell, it is treated as 1 level higher than it is on the original class’s spell list. If he could cast the spell using his base spellcasting class, the spell’s level does not increase. The spell is cast as if its type (arcane, divine, or psychic) were that of his base spellcasting class, and save DCs function as normal for spells of that class. All other restrictions of his normal spellcasting class apply. This ability does not grant other spellcasters special allowance to prepare, cast, or use spell-trigger or spell-completion items of esoteric spells (such as a sorcerer using a cure light wounds scroll prepared by the Pathfinder savant)."
Emphasis mine
This means that the +1 will only not come into effect if both or either of my questions 1 and 2 (top post) are true. Unless I'm missing something.
Ask your GM, for now.
If this is for PFS, we already have an answer. You select spell levels using the same system as pricing scrolls (so Level 5 Witch spell, using the OP's example).
Where is this stated? I'm horrible in finding my way through the jungle of pfs clarifications.
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My apologies. The Pathfinder Savant seems to be the one instance that wasn't addressed. But judging by every other similar ability, you would be wisest and safest to build your character using the same guidelines (or otherwise risk a detrimental setback when it does get clarified; this has happened too many times to count).
Here is clarification on the Samsaran's Mystic Past Life racial trait, for example:
Any spell selected with the mystic past life alternate racial trait must follow the same guideline used for determining the spell level for a scroll found onpage 25page 20 (Season 8) of the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide.
So if it's a Cleric, Wizard or Druid spell, you select the lowest spell level of those 3. If it's not on one of those spell lists, then you select the lowest spell level of all remaining class lists.
A Wizard-9/Psychic-5 would be a Level-9 spell for a Pathfinder Savant, whereas a Ranger-4/Bard-2 would be a Level-2 spell.
PFS tries to make it as easy as possible to find this out on your own, but obviously for a Campaign going into their 9th Season there's a lot to sift through. Luckily, Control-F is your friend. If you have questions about other abilities or legalities going forward, try these resources:
- Archivesofnethys.com (filter for PFS legal material)
- Additional Resources (if it's not listed here it's not legal)
- Campaign Clarifications (this is where the Pathfinder Savant should be listed, IMO)
- Guide to Organized Play (basic questions; updated every August)
- PFS FAQ (helps make the Guide shorter)
- The PFS Forum (check the Stickies first)
I'll go ahead and link this thread over in the Campaign Clarifications thread (EDIT: linky) so it will hopefully get addressed during the next update.
Bumping thread. I see no other way to read Esoteric Magic but as the OP reads it, and Paizo could have changed the text for this year's printing of the class if they intended differently (indeed, they did change it to include psychic magic).
With much respect for Nefreet reasoning, the advice offered is flawed in two respects:
1. This isn't PFS, so the "Additional Resources" document has no bearing in this particular forum--though in the PFS forum it would be the highest authority.
2. There are no similar abilities to compare with Esoteric Magic. No other ability both (a) allows you to treat a spell from another list as being on your class's spell list and (b) has specific language detailing what to do if the spell is already on your class's spell list.
This isn't a loophole; it's the intention of the class's publishers--allow a character to give up a level of her casting advancement and two levels of her base class powers to add a few spells from outside disciplines or "take the shorter path" for a few spells shared between their existing discipline and another. From a RAW standpoint, it's clear, and from a "balance-as-RAI" standpoint, the gains are in the same ballpark as the costs, especially if you omit the core summoner's spell list in favor of the unchained list, as Paizo's efforts would seem to encourage. (IIRC, poaching summoner spells was one of the original objections.) If there are exceptional cases, they are few and easily house-ruled into behaving, whether by PFS campaign leadership or any other competent GM. But removing the ability to do this essentially removes both the class's flavor and its purpose.
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With much respect for Nefreet reasoning, the advice offered is flawed in two respects:
1. This isn't PFS, so the "Additional Resources" document has no bearing in this particular forum--though in the PFS forum it would be the highest authority.
That's why I prefaced my reply with two conditions:
If it's a homegame, ask your GM, because currently there is no answer
and
If this is for PFS, go with the most conservative interpretation, otherwise you risk a backfire in the future
Then when the OP responded that he'd already gone through the various PFS documents, that signalled to me that this was meant for a PFS character, so I continued down that line of reasoning.
With much respect for Nefreet reasoning, the advice offered is flawed in two respects:
1. This isn't PFS, so the "Additional Resources" document has no bearing in this particular forum--though in the PFS forum it would be the highest authority.
That's why I prefaced my reply with two conditions:
If it's a homegame, ask your GM, because currently there is no answer
and
If this is for PFS, go with the most conservative interpretation, otherwise you risk a backfire in the future
Then when the OP responded that he'd already gone through the various PFS documents, that signalled to me that this was meant for a PFS character, so I continued down that line of reasoning.
There is an answer, though--it's right there in the text.