Can a GM do this?


Pathfinder Society


So we were playing a scenario and we ran into something which the GM took a lot of liberties at describing. Pretty much he described it a lot more menacingly and threatening than it should be, and the description also bore a lot of similarities to the confirmed enemies of the scenario. Even its weapon was one which is a lot more bad ass than it should be.

We had no Paladin, or we could have tried detect evil but the GM's description sold it for us because you know... it screamed evil, powerful and was a lot like the enemies which attacked the town. Unable to take any chances because we were unsure if it was the BBEG or something, we surprise round nova'd it to death.

Apparently it was a friendly NPC which was supposed to help us but looks like that didn't go as it should...

Later on the GM berated us as murderhobos and then SHOWED us the picture of the leshy we killed (which again, was completely different from what he described from its appearance to the weapon it had) I have no doubts he knew the effect of his description to us (or he would have showed the picture BEFORE), but he played the fool and acted like it was all our fault for deciding to murder something in cold blood.

We lost out on the scenario's boon and 1 PP by the way (which was the thing which pisses me off most since we all know those matter in the end) and the boon would have been very useful in the next scenario I played with another GM on this very same PC.

Needless to say, I no longer play PFS with his tGM anymore (although I still do homebrews with him because there is less evidence of losing out on anything) The VC also knows the GM really did some shifty nonsense here but instead of doing anything about it (since we are all friends) he just says to keep quiet about it and bribes me with stuff and other things.

But honestly (I actually forgot about this until I was auditing my sheets recently and VC also reminded me about it when I avoided said GM on RPG day because I wanted to try another game) this really pisses me off. Can a GM knowingly pull gotcha moments like this just to $%^&* over players? Because this is really unfair when details which players rely upon to make decisions are completely dependent on the GM.

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

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I recommend deleting this thread ASAP (since taking this public does more harm than good) and getting in touch with your RVC.

Liberty's Edge

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Kalindlara wrote:
I recommend deleting this thread ASAP (since taking this public does more harm than good) and getting in touch with your RVC.

THIS


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Third recommendation. Nothing good will come from a public posting of this.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Authors idea

Authors description

The DMs subjective evaluation of tone of the encounter from the authors description

Ham fisted attempts by non actors to convey said tone

6 Players (often completely different) interpretation of the dms ham fisted portrayal based on their subjective evaluation of the module written with a tone in mind by the author.

I know not getting all the PP sucks, but there there is WAY too much room to add anything definitive there. It's entirely possible that the thing is supposed to look scary, or the dm thought it was supposed to look scary, or it made for a better story if you were jumpy, or he just accidentally did it wrong, or he was aiming for a little jumpy and the party got paranoid.

Short of "the scenario will provide all descriptions, which will be read in the voice of ben stein" can you see any way to avoid situations like this?

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Kalindlara wrote:
I recommend deleting this thread ASAP (since taking this public does more harm than good) and getting in touch with your RVC.

Could just be a GM getting too caught up in running the scenario.

There are certainly similarities between the enemies and the NPC, but in this case the actions of the NPC are pretty set (and if he had the picture to show you, I have no idea why he didn't show you immediately).

Stil, the others are correct, without having heard his side of the story, there really is nothing we can do. Talk to your VC again and if that doesn't solve the issue talk to your RVC.

It might be too late/too unclear to fix this situation, so letting this one go... might just be the smart play here.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Sebastian hersh wrote:
and if he had the picture to show you, I have no idea why he didn't show you immediately).

Usually I just have the one tablet , so i can either read boxt text or show pretty pic, not do both at the same time

One of my dms has a trick where he cuts them out and puts them on popsickle sticks. Should do that more often. Or bring the second tablet.

1/5 5/5

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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Except this sounds more like *ATTACK OF THE SAVAGE embellished FLAVOR TEXT* and nothing good can come of that, or this thread?


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I would go to the VC. Trying to blast a GM in public tends to cause problems, more than it solves them.

1/5

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I'm going to disagree with most everyone above. Since you're not naming names or even providing hints or clues as to who is at fault, I think it actually helps the community to expose bad practices, so other GMs know not to attempt these stunts.

This community refusing to publicly acknowledge and discuss bad GMing is to its detriment. Sometimes GMs don't know what their doing is inappropriate and reading about it can help them improve.


Quote:
The VC also knows the GM really did some shifty nonsense here but instead of doing anything about it (since we are all friends) he just says to keep quiet about it and bribes me with stuff and other things.

If true, this would seem to be very, very wrong to me. But I don't play PFS so maybe I just don't understand how the system works.

5/5

Why did you nova something to death without attempting to start a dialog? If it's intelligent enough to wield a weapon, it's intelligent enough to speak.

The PCs clearly were the aggressors here.

Let's put this from another perspective:

Should the players receive full prestige when they make unprovoked attacks on a creature that may or may not be an enemy?

The fact that something "looks or sounds evil" does not give the PCs a licence to attack it. We have entire factions that fit that criteria.

As I see it, the GM went above and beyond the scenario to flesh it out, and the players reacted poorly.

Lets not chase away GMs like that.

4/5 *

If you attack first without full information, that's on you. Knowledge skills are out there for a reason. There are multiple scenarios out there where the appropriate response for full PP is to talk to something that looks scary.

4/5 5/5 **** Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

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RealAlchemy wrote:
If you attack first without full information, that's on you. Knowledge skills are out there for a reason. There are multiple scenarios out there where the appropriate response for full PP is to talk to something that looks scary.

Except in the scenario the leshy is clearly aware of the bad guys and is telegraphed really easily that they aren't evil. I'm pretty sure that it's box text material.


Omnitricks wrote:
Can a GM knowingly pull gotcha moments like this just to $%^&* over players?

I can't answer to this without more details. GMs often try to sucker players into doing the wrong thing. It happens to me a lot, and I keep a grain of salt in each sharp eye.

PFS scenarios are supposed to be scripted, and if this GM this time intentionally mislead you, it should have been only because he was scripted to do so. But, I do like every GMing scenario better when I get personal flavor from the GM. I don't want a presentation with no soul.

Withholding the picture sounds bad, but judging based on appearances also is bad. If the GM erred in the way he sexed up his description to bring out and overabundance of caution to make you shoot first and ask questions later, he then shouldn't have berated you as murderhobos. If you did what he wanted you to do, he should have owned it. If he wickedly fooled you, he should have boasted of it. Perhaps it was a legit failure of communication on the GM's part, and/or yours, an honest mistake that no one is willing to honestly cop to.

Omnitricks wrote:
The VC also knows the GM really did some shifty nonsense here but instead of doing anything about it (since we are all friends) he just says to keep quiet about it and bribes me with stuff and other things.

Now this makes me think that insofar as you were in the right, you have been compensated for the way in which you have been injured by the poor GMing. And if that is the case, you should have dropped the matter.

Kalindlara wrote:
I recommend deleting this thread ASAP (since taking this public does more harm than good) and getting in touch with your RVC.

I see merit in this advice. Going public is the avenue of last resort, and your private complaint seems to have already yielded results.

There are other options. Your characters' profiles on your Paizo account shows which scenarios you participated in. And next to each one, there is an option to click called "report incident." I've never tried this myself, but it looks to me like that is an approved channel for registering complaints.

Also, Paizo has a customer service email address.

These are 2 things you should have done before publicly calling your Venture Lodge onto the carpet like this. Then again, you didn't name any names....

But again, it sounds like your complaints have been heard, and a legit offer was made to satisfy them. I don't know what "bribes of stuff and other things" entails, but it sounds like you should have declared victory and dropped the matter.

Omnitricks wrote:
(I actually forgot about this until I was auditing my sheets recently

My instinct is you should let sleeping dogs lie. This is old stuff you are bitter about. Let it go.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

It might be a case of a GM trying to make the adventure more fun by piling on, but accidentally messing it up. Good intentions, bad results.

I'm just looking into the adventure, there isn't any box text for that scene.

Overall the adventure is on the easy side; in the GM thread a lot of people advocated really focusing on mood and description because mechanically it was a bit thin.

Omnitricks wrote:
We had no Paladin, or we could have tried detect evil but the GM's description sold it for us because you know... it screamed evil, powerful and was a lot like the enemies which attacked the town. Unable to take any chances because we were unsure if it was the BBEG or something, we surprise round nova'd it to death.

I guess there's some lessons for you.

Paladin's Detect Evil is far from foolproof. Evil creatures with less than 5HD don't radiate evil unless they're clerics/undead/outsiders. And several evil creatures in scenarios use alignment-hiding spells.

Also, not all enemies are evil, and not all evil things should always be fought. There are multiple scenarios built around the trope of "cooperate with the unlikely ally". And in others you get penalized for murderising people for "walking on the street while radiating evil".

Omnitricks wrote:
We lost out on the scenario's boon and 1 PP by the way (which was the thing which pisses me off most since we all know those matter in the end) and the boon would have been very useful in the next scenario I played with another GM on this very same PC.

Honestly, PP isn't all that important. It's nice to get 2PP so you can quickly buy a wand, but it really isn't that crucial to get full prestige every time.

Think of it as a tuition fee, to teach you not to be too hasty to attack.

4/5 *

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N N 959 wrote:

I'm going to disagree with most everyone above. Since you're not naming names or even providing hints or clues as to who is at fault, I think it actually helps the community to expose bad practices, so other GMs know not to attempt these stunts.

This community refusing to publicly acknowledge and discuss bad GMing is to its detriment. Sometimes GMs don't know what their doing is inappropriate and reading about it can help them improve.

The community spends plenty of time discussing "bad GMing". This, however, isn't a discussion: it's a one-sided story we're hearing. When I get a GM who doesn't just say, "you encounter monster #67 with template #3, roll initiative", I am thrilled. YMMV, of course.

Better to remove dice rolls, and have everyone just take 10 on everything, than to remove the drama and storytelling ability of the GM. That way, everyone can calculate the most efficient formula to earn full prestige, and not have to waste so much time at the table with plot or story or character.[/sarcasm]

It sounds like the OP's group needs more GMs, if they have to keep one they don't like in circulation through bribery of players. There's a very clear option here: step up and be a better GM.

(And yeah... Knowledge skills. Not just for bards anymore.)

The Exchange 5/5

My comment copied from another "I'm upset with the judge" thread...

"I think my GM unintentionally "cheated" ... what do I do?"

This is just my opinion- realizing that I was not there and am not likely to be able to effect this in any way...

#1 - Talk to the judge to express the issues. Always give them a chance to know and understand your feelings on the job they are doing. Feedback is important, it is often how bad judges improve, and good judges become great.

#2 - if you aren't satisfied with his response to your concerns...Never play for him again. If you don't think he will improve... don't waste the game time with him. Life is too short to waste on bad games... and the number of scenarios are limited.

"If it's not fun, don't play"

something to think about::

A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her.

The senior monk carried this woman on his shoulder, forded the river and let her down on the other bank. The junior monk was very upset, but said nothing.

They both were walking and senior monk noticed that his junior was suddenly silent and enquired “Is something the matter, you seem very upset?”

The junior monk replied, “As monks, we are not permitted a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?”

The senior monk replied, “I left the woman a long time ago at the bank, however, you seem to be carrying her still.”

It is best to try to leave the bad games behind you... leave this judge at the river (if you can).

really - it's not worth the upset. Move on. You'll feel better. This judge could be great - he could be terrible, but at the moment you are still carrying your last game with him. Until you put that game down and move on, you will not be able to enjoy a game with this judge.

there, feel free to ignore me, after all, I was not there and am not likely to be able to effect this in any way...

4/5 *

Omnitricks wrote:
Unable to take any chances because we were unsure if it was the BBEG or something, we surprise round nova'd it to death.

You were also unsure if it was a friendly NPC.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
GM Lamplighter wrote:
Omnitricks wrote:
Unable to take any chances because we were unsure if it was the BBEG or something, we surprise round nova'd it to death.
You were also unsure if it was a friendly NPC.

If it was the scenario in question I am thinking of, the description makes it pretty obvious of the scene *in the scenario* that the NPC in question is potentially an ally, based on what they are doing and how they are doing it, IMO.

There's a reason I try to prep all the pictures of key NPCs, aside from possible comprehension skills of players. It saves time and helps with character immersion, as well as prevents 'gotcha' kind of moments.

More jarring is the accusations of 'player bribery'.

And I've been wavering back and forth on this, because gut reaction is 'let the chain of command handle it' and 'this is clearly a problem (once bribery is mentioned) that won't be handled effectively by the chain of command'.

A better question for that last part might be "What is being considered 'bribery'?"

If un-earned scenario rewards are being given/Boons handed out/etc to silence folks who have concerns about local GM style, that is corrosive to the local community level.

If it is a free meal or the like, then the game has shifted from 'playing for fun' to 'playing for form of compensation', which is not necessarily a comfortable feeling?


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If the BBEG is hacking the peasants and their thatched-roofed cottages to bits with an adamantine battleaxe and everyone KNOWS this, and then the GM describes the NPC as wielding an adamantine battleaxe when in reality it is carrying a feather duster and the DM KNOWS this because he has a PICTURE of it then it's blatantly a set-up. He has a valid concern.

Even more disturbing is the prospect that the local VC is using bribes to cover it up. Both of these issues are completely worthy of discussion and not an immediate sweeping under the rug as many here have suggested. "Hear no evil" does nothing to fix problems like these.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

First things first, OP: hey, I’m sorry you found that whole thing so frustrating. It sounds like your GM either described the NPC badly or intentionally misled you, and in either case it was inappropriate (or at least rude and condescending) to scold all of you afterward for making a costly mistake based on his miscommunication. To answer your question directly: I would say that GM’s are not allowed to intentionally mislead players under PFS rules (since scenarios must be run as written), unless the NPC’s are specifically trying to mislead the characters. But note the difference: characters can mislead characters, but players should not be trying to mislead other players unless it’s through those characters.

I also have some advice if you’re interested in trying to correct the problem, rather than just venting about it. If you’re just looking to vent and get an answer to “is this allowed?” then that’s cool, just ignore the rest of this.

You say that you’re all friends, so I would first try to talk to this GM as a friend. I know it can be hard to talk to your friends about when they mess up and address their hurtful and frustrating behaviors. Just avoiding playing with this GM is certainly one solution, but if you’re still feeling frustrated about it or you enter a situation where the choice is playing with this GM or not playing at all, I think it’s worth trying to talk about it. First of all, this is a conversation to have away from the table. Maybe after the game or hanging out with them some other time. If you’re not comfortable addressing the issue one on one like that, maybe get some other friends to talk about it with y’all, or have a Venture Officer mediate if you feel like you need that mediation. But I wouldn't immediately suggest escalating to that level if you think you can talk as friends.

In any case, I would start with expressing your frustration - what the GM did specifically that frustrated you and proposing a solution (rather than just accusing them of shifty nonsense right off the bat). I'm not saying that they definitely weren't up to some shifty nonsense, but coming at them with accusations is going to put them on the defensive and they won't be very receptive. Something like, “Hey, I felt like the description you gave made didn’t match the picture you showed us later, and I’m frustrated because we were penalized for not understanding what you seemed to think was obvious. Do you think in the future we could work on making sure we’re all on the same page about what’s taking place in the fiction of the game so we can avoid what happened last time?”

If you have that conversation and frame it as an issue of your own frustration with a specific solution that everyone can work toward, then you’ve done what you can as far as I’m concerned. What the GM decides to do with that information then is on them, but I’m hoping that they’ll respect your issues as a friend and incorporate that criticism into becoming a better GM. If not, well, maybe it’ll be awkward and you’ll just continue avoiding them and not playing in their games. Best case scenario: they improve as a GM and you don't encounter any more "gotcha" situations. Worst case scenario: they still get really defensive, and claim they did nothing wrong, and dismiss you angrily. In the worst case scenario, you at least find out whether they can handle criticism or whether they actually care about how they made you feel; both are good pieces of information to know in determining whether you should really keep being friends with them.

P.S.:
I wrote something mean here about everyone who I think is giving bad advice, but I thought better of it. Don't @ me.

Community & Digital Content Director

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Heya, it looks like you've been given a decent amount of feedback here. We suggest letting your VC, or RVC, aware of the issue (you can find the list of coordinators here). If you're still running into issues, then you may want to let our Organized Play Coordinator, Tonya Woldridge (tonya.woldridge@paizo.com), know about them. Local play issues are generally best resolved via those channels than through our public forums, and we'll be locking this for now.

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