Save or Suck spells, or how do I lower their Will Save?


Advice

The Exchange

Right now I'm playing a shadowcaster illusion specialist wizard (with divination and abjuration opposition schools) in a Way of the Wicked campaign, and I'm mainly debuff/utility. It's my first time playing a full caster and I'm noticing a lot of debuff spells are save-or-suck.

The character is a fetchling, so he gets a +1 to DCs on shadow (illusion) spells (from the alt racial Shadow Magic), spell focus (illusion) for another +1, and tenebrous spell metamagic for free on any spell with the darkness or shadow descriptors. So essentially, for the sweet spot of shadow (illusion) spells, he gets a +3 to the DC. Is there any way to attack the opponents' will saves, though?

I've got an int (with a +2 headband) of 21.

My feats thus far (at lvl 7) look like this:
Tenebrous
Spell Focus (Illusion)
Craft Wondrous Item
Shadow Gambit

Planned feats are:
Combat Casting
Umbral Spell
Solid Shadows
Lich
Observant Illusion
Shadow Grasp
Opposition Research (Divination)
Resilient Illusions

The party make-up atm, is:
Inquisitor
Antipaladin (soon to be vampiric)
Debuff Alchemist
Blaster Sorcerer

Traits are:
Campaign trait (+1 against divine spells)
Kuthite Caster
Precise Treatment

Any tips would be great! (I really wanna be able to cast things like Masochistic Shadow and eventually Maddening Oubliette.)


witches and mezmerists can lower will saves


Arcanists are better at optimizing save DCs, since Potent Magic grants a +2 to the Save DC of any spell you cast.

I believe there is a trait that gives +1 to Shadow Illusion spell DCs, but I forget the name.

As for lowering saving throws, you'd need to use spells like Doom, Curse of Ill Omen, and so on, which gives penalties to saving throws.

The Exchange

We don't have a mesmerist or a witch. So....

What we have is listed. We also don't have an arcanist.

So please don't mention any other classes. We can't change the party make up, and I don't want to retrain.

That said!

Doom could help! And I've mentioned enforcer+merciful weapon to the antipaladin (he was thinking of cormudgeon smash anyway).


It may be a bit of a sacrifice for the sorcerer, but if he picks up bestow curse, that can be useful for knocking down saving throws if it sticks. He'll need to level up to get to 4th level spells first. Repeat with mind fog and 5th level spells down the road.

Going with Eldritch Heritage (Undead), that inflicts the shaken condition, which affects saves as well. For that matter, anyone built for the Intimidate skill will be helpful with that via demoralization.


Inquisitors are often good at intimidating too.

If your enemies are buffed then dispel magic can help. You'd probably want to make your opposition research on abjuration instead if that's common.

Quicken spell for some minor debuff might be handy, e.g. ray of sickening.


The easiest way is via Intimidate (-2 to all saves). If you have a melee with Power Attack he can get Cornugon Smash (and pair it with Hurtful for extra pain). Altenatively, the casters can go with Blistering Invective, that is an area effect.

The antipaladin can also get the Sickened cruelty (another -2) and, at level 8, he gets Aura of Despair (another -2 and another area effect).


If the Antipaladin is willing to help out, he can pick up the sickend cruelty and a conductive weapon to give them another -2 on saves.
Haunting mists is a 2nd lvl Illusion that makes them Shaken in addition to dealing wis dmg on a failed save.(-3 total if you roll well on the wis dmg)
Loathsome Veil is a 3rd lvl Illusion spell that makes them Sickend, or nauseated if they have low HD(another -2 if the Antipaladin is using other class features)
Phantasmal affliction is another 3rd lvl illusion that can mimic bestow curse for a -4(your call whether 2 saves at a +3 DC is better than 1 at a normal DC)
Accursed Glare is Necromancy(lvl 3) but it makes them roll twice and take the worse result.
Enervation(lvl 4) Necromancy spell to apply negative levels which penalize saves.
Horrific Doubles(lvl 4) is an improved mirror image spell that can make enemies shaken and possibly deal wis dmg
Shout out to Shadow Conjuration(lvl 4), which lets you summon things for more debuffs(id have to look at the summon list to be more specific)

Scarab Sages

Greater malison is the real winner. :-P


Crushing despair is a good choice for knocking down multiple foes' savings throws and it hits them in a few other places as well even if you don't get your other spells off to take advantage of their lowered saves. The fact they have a harder time hitting you and your allies and do less damage even when they do is great by itself.


A couple of techniques:

Try and get some spells that have Fort or Refl saving throws -- that way, if you run into somebody (say an Evil High Priest) with a high Will save, just chuck something else at them. (Knowledge skills can help you figure out what you're usually up against.)

Illusion spells tend to give saves only if interacted with -- i.e., the other person somehow becomes suspicious of them. Try and create plausible illusions that the other party just accepts as real, and reacts accordingly, rather than ones they will question and therefore try to save against.


Intimidate is easy to succeed on and gives Shaken for -2. Riving Strike is a feat which requires Arcane Strike and imposes a -2 penalty. Spells that give the Sickened condition can also give a -2 penalty.


Prayer (cleric/paladin lvl 3) will reduce an opponents saving throws by 1

Grand Lodge

Sickening + blistering invictive.

This is nice because the shaken condition in based on intimidate which is easy to optimize and the sickening is a fortitude save. This makes the combo viable against high will targets.

Get persistent meta magic. Is the most effective dc boost in the game for 2 levels your getting about +4 to the dc.


Madness bombs come online for Alchemists at 12. They're pretty strong for this with Fast bomber and rapid shot and haste,

thats 1D4, 1D4-1 (minimum 1), 1D4-2 (minimum 1), 1 wisdom damage, for an average of like 6 wis damage.

particularly strong against the evil high priest types that tonyz mentioned as they might find themselves unable to cast their strongest spells all of a sudden.

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