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I found this quote several pages back in one of the blog discussion threads but could see no good way to bring it up again there without derailing the thread.
my brother-in-law and I both made a point of reading the character creation section when we had the book. The example you linked earlier is spot on with one exception, stat bonus wasn't applied in that example. What I read in the book was:
All stats at 10
Apply Racial bonuses
Apply Theme bonus
Spend 10 points
No stat above 18
From further discussion, it appears that points are spent on a 1:1 basis. It also appears to be known that at least some races have ability score penalties.
That raises a question in regard to the upper limit of a penalized ability score -- can a penalized ability score be increased all the way to 18, or is the maximum value reduced by that penalty?
I can see that an ability score with a -2 racial penalty and no theme bonus could require all 10 of your spendable points to reach 18, but it would help explain some comments I have seen about all race/class combinations being playable.
Everybody should get a theme bonus. If you don't like one listed, be Themeless and get a bonus of your choice.
I was assuming that for whatever reason the character assigned his theme bonus to an ability score other than the one he was trying to get up to 18, not that he didn't get one at all.
I will readily admit that it is unlikely that a player would want to combine an ability score of 18 with a theme that does not boost that same ability score -- but I was trying to figure out what happens in the worst possible case for a given ability score. An ability score of 18 looks like it can be very expensive but never impossible. At the other extreme, a character with a +2 racial bonus and a +1 theme bonus in an ability score can get that 18 for only 5 points and thus have more points left over to spend on other ability scores.
As far as I understand, the maximum value is always 18, regardless of modifiers.
If it is applied on that order then it should be fine.
Assume you want a character with 18 dex and the ace pilot theme.
Example #1 Race with +2 Dex.
Start at 10, bump to 12 from race, bump to 13 from Theme, Spend 5 points increasing it from 13 to 18.
Example #2 Race with -2 Dex.
Start at 10, Reduce to 8 from race, Bump to 9 from theme, Spend 9 of your 10 points getting Dex to 18.
Some races will just have to work harder then others at some things.
Stat boosting items aside you can still have 20 Dex and 3 stats at 14+ by 10th level.
Min/Maxing will still be a thing so if any races get +3 or more to one stat and a penalty to a stat that some classes consider a dump stat then you will see a lot of that race/class combination.
I think someone said most of the races average out to a +3 boost overall.
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If ability scores have a 1 to 1 cost it actually doesn't matter which specific score your bonus goes into, as long as it's one you planned on spending at least that many points in.
If you're going to buy a 16 in Dex and a 12 in Con, it doesn't matter at all whether you're getting +2 Dex or +2 Con, both bonuses help you to the exact same degree.
If ability scores have a 1 to 1 cost it actually doesn't matter which specific score your bonus goes into, as long as it's one you planned on spending at least that many points in.
If you're going to buy a 16 in Dex and a 12 in Con, it doesn't matter at all whether you're getting +2 Dex or +2 Con, both bonuses help you to the exact same degree.
This really opens up the "which races are good at which classes" calculation. If you're building a wizard, with Int as a primary stat and Dex as a secondary stat, any race with an Int bonus OR any race with a Dex bonus is equally as useful, barring other racial features.
Edit: In fact, with a flat point buy, your choice of race & theme has quite a marginal impact on your ability scores.
Example: I'm playing a Shirren (+2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha) with the Ace Pilot theme (+1 Dex). Before point buy, I've got
Str 10, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Now I've got 10 points at 1:1. I can get an 18 in any ability, even my racial weakness! Obviously, there are more optimal choices, but the difference between most optimal and least optimal is smaller than it was in Pathfinder.
Eh. Sort of. Most of the time it's a small number juggling exercise that's slightly more complicated than Pathfinder (but not really to any massive degree) since you have to plan around level based ability score bumps helping you more or less based on decisions you made 5 levels ago.
I think what it really accomplished was making the best choice for your race far more objective, rather than a series of trade offs. As long as your racial penalty and none of your bonuses are in an ability score you don't care about (probably Strength or Charisma depending on class), you're in the clear. It doesn't really reduce "min-maxing", it just narrows the number of races that are best for a class a bit more.
I guess I just don't see any design need for it. It seems like it would have been way less complicated to just give everyone 13 or 15 points or something and include lines like "Elves typically have high Dex and Int", then lean more on racial abilities for defining differences. This works too, but it definitely narrows play space more and doesn't seem like an improvement on Pathfinder point buy.
I think the starting off point seems to be a large question of "in what order do those factors apply". You can get all kinds of situations if you mess with the order those 5 rules apply.
... Written in the order presented (first rule applies first, last rule applies last), it seems like an interesting way of improving races in a way that (at least unless the racial bonus is more than 2), allows even races with a disadvantage with certain abilities to do basically whatever they want. It does however place a cap on what all abilities do. But that's fine.
If they apply in reverse order (or near enough to it, depending on if we assume that the last rule continues to apply later or not); we can run into a situation where a race with a -2 in one ability can find itself capped at 16 on that ability. Granted, that's basically how it works in Pathfinder, give or take whether even good stats will be capped at 18 or 20. However, let's be honest... If they did it in a way that was functionally identical as in Pathfinder, there'd be no real reason to change how it works.
Assuming you can still use dice rolling if you want, things get complicated. But so far, there's been no mention of how random stats will work. Even the First Contact book works on the assumption that you're NOT going to roll for it.
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Speaking of First contact... What exactly is going on with some of the Ability score points there? It's using +1 and -1 for some of the scores, and then goes "yeah, if porting this to Pathfinder, use +2/-2 instead". They even show the Goblin scores like this, as if to drive the point home.
... It makes me wonder if this is actually going to be the scale the core races work at. With like... Shirren being like, +1 Con, +1 Wis, -1 Cha. I mean... Okay? But, this really seems like a case where suddenly you're nerfing races. Then again, at this point, races are practically becoming irrelevant if we're assuming the "apply those rules in order" interpretation.
... Or maybe its just for the races in the book... Who knows.
Not all races have +2/+2/-2. For instance, humans appear to still have a single +2 to any one ability score (I worked backwards through the ability score generation of Navasi) and contemplatives have +4/+1/-1/-1. The +1 from the theme (disregarding the bonus from the themeless theme) isn't a big change, but it is a change.
Also, having an odd starting stat has an impact later on with the ability upgrades you get every five level. As having an ability at 16 and boosting it results in an 18, but an ability score of 17 that is upgraded also results in an 18. Not much of an impact, but it makes a small difference.
First Contact used afaik an older layout for the ability creation which always based in a total of +3
as we now know with the official shirren preview: that one's outdated
It is also written in forst contact that the rules may still changefrom the point the book was created on
Not all races have +2/+2/-2. For instance, humans appear to still have a single +2 to any one ability score (I worked backwards through the ability score generation of Navasi) and contemplatives have +4/+1/-1/-1. The +1 from the theme (disregarding the bonus from the themeless theme) isn't a big change, but it is a change.It just makes races with only +/-2 to stats mechanically worse than races with say +1/+1/-1
Depends on the other abilities of the races. Ability scores aren't everything with all the strange abilities available when picking a race.
Depends on the other abilities of the races. Ability scores aren't everything with all the strange abilities available when picking a race.Not all races have +2/+2/-2. For instance, humans appear to still have a single +2 to any one ability score (I worked backwards through the ability score generation of Navasi) and contemplatives have +4/+1/-1/-1. The +1 from the theme (disregarding the bonus from the themeless theme) isn't a big change, but it is a change.It just makes races with only +/-2 to stats mechanically worse than races with say +1/+1/-1
Agreed, I mean...there is a race of large humanoids who grow butterfly wings of energy and can fly for an hour through space before they need to catch a breath
That is pretty cool and could totally save your parties ass under some circumstances