I was wondering if the following scenario works the way I think it does or if I'm missing something:
- Character is on a magic carpet in the air
- Huge dragon attempts a grapple with his 10ft reach(does or doesn't provoke AoO?)
- Succeeds, which pulls the character next to the dragon, minus the magic carpet (extra attempt to free the grapple due to moving into hazardous condition?)
- dragon uses a free action to release the grapple
- Character falls
I haven't found anything that would suggest this would work in a different way.
- Huge dragon attempts a grapple with his 10ft reach(does or doesn't provoke AoO?)
It only provokes if the PC has 10' and can attack into the dragon's squares.
- Succeeds, which pulls the character next to the dragon, minus the magic carpet (extra attempt to free the grapple due to moving into hazardous condition?)
By RAW, there is no bonus escape attempt on the initial grapple, only on the "move" option of maintain a grapple. A generous or flexible GM may give that extra attempt given the circumstances.
- dragon uses a free action to release the grapple
- Character falls
Ok thanks. Also, is there any ruling in regards to how far away a dragon could be and still attempt a grapple? For example, an ancient white dragon has 10ft reach, but 15ft with it's bite attack. I could see it being ruled either way.
Why do you think that the carpet doesn't come with the character?
The way I understand the carpet is that it is directed via voice commands, it is in no way attached to the character. The dragon is grappling the character, not the carpet, and so it would not come with when the character is moved closer due to being grappled.
I think the general assumption that it would stay with the character makes more sense, and makes it so you don't have to worry about grappling working this way.
If the friction between the characters body is enough to move the character when the carpet moves, it should certainly be enough to move the carpet when the character moves, unless the carpet were trying to resist, which doesn't make any sense (or even something that it is really capable of.)
Additionally, being a free action that can be done outside your turn, speaking to tell the carpet what to do can be done anytime.
You can certainly speak commands to tell it what to do whenever you want, but it cannot move until your round in the initiative order. The carpet is magical and does not move unless given commands.
If someone is on a skateboard, their friction is enough to move when the skateboard moves but that doesn't mean that it will come with the person if I pick them up. In this case, the dragon is literally grabbing the character in its mouth (or claw I suppose) so I don't see how the carpet would move as well
I would also argue for the sake of balance of the game that knocking a character off a carpet needs to be allowed
Ok thanks. Also, is there any ruling in regards to how far away a dragon could be and still attempt a grapple? For example, an ancient white dragon has 10ft reach, but 15ft with it's bite attack. I could see it being ruled either way.
There is no rule about which attack to use a standard grapple attempt with--you could use the bite if you choose.
Ok thanks. Also, is there any ruling in regards to how far away a dragon could be and still attempt a grapple? For example, an ancient white dragon has 10ft reach, but 15ft with it's bite attack. I could see it being ruled either way.
There is no rule about which attack to use a standard grapple attempt with--you could use the bite if you choose.
Unless the dragon has the Grab special ability, I don't think the grapple attempt is associated with any particular natural attack. Instead, it attempts the Grapple combat maneuver and the target must be within the dragon's natural reach (10 ft.).
(searching for verification of "target must be within ... natural reach") ...
I don't see anything that specifies how far away a target can be when a creature attempts to start a grapple. I guess I had always presumed that the target must be within reach. I am confident that the grapple attempt is not associated with any particular attack, so feats like weapon focus (bite) would not give a bonus on the CMB check.
I think the general assumption that it would stay with the character makes more sense, and makes it so you don't have to worry about grappling working this way.
If the friction between the characters body is enough to move the character when the carpet moves, it should certainly be enough to move the carpet when the character moves, unless the carpet were trying to resist, which doesn't make any sense (or even something that it is really capable of.)
Additionally, being a free action that can be done outside your turn, speaking to tell the carpet what to do can be done anytime.
There are specific maneuvers to separate characters from their gear. Grapple is not one of them.
Unless the Dragon has some special ability, the Dragon gains the Grappled Condition when its Grapple Check succeeds. The Dragon would stop moving, and both would fall.
I'd recommend the Dragon Bull Rush the wizard (or whatever) off the Flying Carpet instead. That will accomplish exactly what the Dragon is looking for--moving the victim off the carpet so that it will fall--and so complicated.
Unless the Dragon has some special ability, the Dragon gains the Grappled Condition when its Grapple Check succeeds. The Dragon would stop moving, and both would fall.
I'd recommend the Dragon Bull Rush the wizard (or whatever) off the Flying Carpet instead. That will accomplish exactly what the Dragon is looking for--moving the victim off the carpet so that it will fall--and so complicated.
The dragon doesn't stop moving, it just can't move out of its space (until its next turn if it maintains the grapple and decides to move both it and the creature its grappling). Or at least that's how I interpret it. I don't think a flying creature would stop flapping its wings just because its grappling someone.
Grappling always provokes unless you have Improved Grapple (or some other feat) which stops it from provoking. However, if no one is threatening at the time the attack is provoked, no one can take the attack. In this case the PC would need to be able to reach the dragon to attack it.
Using a bite attack to grapple should be possible, but keep in mind that the dragon might take a penalty for not using two hands (two limbs) to perform the grapple. It's kind of ambiguous since the grapple rules specifically mention humanoid opponents in the line about taking a -4 penalty, but I feel like it should probably apply in all cases. If you're grappling someone you need to use two limbs to do so, however this is my opinion and is not explicitly contained in the rules.
The overriding question is a flying carpet considered an attended object rather than a mount?
Because if it is an attended object and moves with the PC on a grapple or bull rush attempt (unlike a mount) then dragon has an alternate and infinitely more hilarious option:
Use the Steal combat maneuver to literally pull the rug out from under the PC!
Steal:
You can attempt to take an item from a foe as a standard action. This maneuver can be used in melee to take any item that is neither held nor hidden in a bag or pack. You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to attempt this maneuver. You must select the item to be taken before the check is made. Items that are simply tucked into a belt or loosely attached (such as brooches or necklaces) are the easiest to take. Items fastened to a foe (such as cloaks, sheathed weapons, or pouches) are more difficult to take, and give the opponent a +5 bonus (or greater) to his CMD. Items that are closely worn (such as armor, backpacks, boots, clothing, or rings) cannot be taken with this maneuver. Items held in the hands (such as wielded weapons or wands) also cannot be taken with the steal maneuver—you must use the disarm combat maneuver instead. The GM is the final arbiter of what items can be taken. If you do not have the Improved Steal feat or a similar ability, attempting to steal an object provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
Although this maneuver can only be performed if the target is within your reach, you can use a whip to steal an object from a target within range with a –4 penalty on the attack roll.
If your attack is successful, you may take one item from your opponent. You must be able to reach the item to be taken (subject to GM discretion). Your enemy is immediately aware of this theft unless you possess the Greater Steal feat.
Unless the Dragon has some special ability, the Dragon gains the Grappled Condition when its Grapple Check succeeds. The Dragon would stop moving, and both would fall.
I'd recommend the Dragon Bull Rush the wizard (or whatever) off the Flying Carpet instead. That will accomplish exactly what the Dragon is looking for--moving the victim off the carpet so that it will fall--and so complicated.
The dragon doesn't stop moving, it just can't move out of its space (until its next turn if it maintains the grapple and decides to move both it and the creature its grappling). Or at least that's how I interpret it. I don't think a flying creature would stop flapping its wings just because its grappling someone.
Still, good call on the bull rush.
What I meant was that when you Grapple someone, you are usually Grappled too.
Core Rulebook, Combat, Special Attacks, Combat Maneuvers, Grapple wrote:
you and the target gain the grappled condition.
And when you have the Grappled Condition, you are not allowed to take that Action called Move.
Grappled Condition wrote:
Grappled creatures cannot move
A Dragon who grapples someone in the normal way while Flying can't usually carry on the normal business of Flying and commences the business of Falling.
Scamperbaby wrote:
it just can't move out of its space (until its next turn if it maintains the grapple and decides to move both it and the creature its grappling). Or at least that's how I interpret it.
Ah, I see where you are going. "Move" is an action that you can take as part of a Grapple:
Core Rulebook, Combat, Special Attacks, Combat Maneuvers, Grapple wrote:
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Move
You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you....
Damage...
Pin...
Tie Up...
So, while a successful Grapple check puts upon the Dragon the Grappled Condition and the inability to Move, and therefore would start falling, successive successful Grapple Checks allow the Dragon to take the Move Grapple Action and move himself and his prey half his regular Flying Speed!
Scott, the dragon can simply make a Hover fly check (dc 15) to remain aloft on its turn. While the grappled condition prevents movement, it does not prevent using your wings to remain in place.
Scott, the dragon can simply make a Hover fly check (dc 15) to remain aloft on its turn. While the grappled condition prevents movement, it does not prevent using your wings to remain in place.
Yeah, I was looking that up. I guess that works, too.
Scott, the dragon can simply make a Hover fly check (dc 15) to remain aloft on its turn. While the grappled condition prevents movement, it does not prevent using your wings to remain in place.
Yeah, I was looking that up. I guess that works, too.
I seem to recall that you can make a Fly Skill Check to determine whether you can still remain Flying in the event that you are attacked or have a mid-air collision. So a successful Fly check on the part of the fellow on the Flying Carpet might allow him to maintain a hold of the 'Carpet even after he is Bull Rushed by the Dragon.
