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So, when a weapon is classified as a type of weapon (bow, thrown, firearm, polearm) and is a part of a specific weapon group, is this classification interchangeable? Is it classified as that type of weapon because it is in that weapon group, or is it something inherent to the weapon?
So, would a sling be considered a thrown weapon because the weapon is a thrown weapon, or is it only a thrown weapon where the weapon group is concerned?
If a weapon was to change weapon groups and be considered a part of another weapon group, is it actually a weapon of that type?
If I understand your question correctly, the answer is that weapon groups are only groups of weapons, they have nothing to actually do with the type of weapon. It's possible to have a thrown weapon that isn't part of the thrown weapon group. It is equally possible (though ridiculously unlikely except for some sort of combination weapon) to have a firearm that is part of the axes group. That doesn't make it an axe.
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I suppose to broaden the question, if the weapon is treated as being in that weapon group, what is the limit of effects that apply to that weapon as far as class features and the like go?
For instance, would said firearm sling become a valid choice for Gun Training? Or does it need to be an actual firearm for that to work? This is the core of my question. How does being in a weapon group interact with abilities related to types of weapons?
I've asked this in the past, particularly related to whether slings being in the thrown weapon group category interact the same as throwing weapons when using the Startoss Style feats. In that instances, is it a generic ranged weapon or is it a thrown weapon? Does it count for use with the later feats in the chain or does it require a weapon that is thrown? And if so, how are these lines defined if not by weapon group?
The Startoss issue is that Startoss style itself refers to "[a] weapon from the thrown fighter weapon group" whereas the subsequent feats in the chain refer to "a single ranged thrown weapon attack" and there's some uncertainty as to whether an attack with a weapon happens to be a "Thrown weapon attack" simply because it is made with a weapon in the thrown fighter group. Do I have this right?
I'm not familiar with the ability in Adventurer's Armory 2 that apparently allows you to move weapons into different weapon groups. Would a slingstaff you make into a polearm count as being in both the thrown and the polearms weapon group?
For the Startoss question I don't think the game requires (or benefits from) distinguishing between thrown weapon attacks and ranged weapon attacks. I believe the line in Startoss Comet is simply there to prevent you from making melee attacks that ricochet (with a dagger, say) because that would be nonsensical. The requirement for it being "thrown" ought to be satisfied by being the weapon you chose for the first feat in the chain. To wit, a weapon in the thrown weapon group is defined as one that is capable of making effective ranged thrown weapon attacks (you can throw bardiche or a crossbow, but it's not going to work that well.) The reason a spear is in the thrown group but a longspear is not has nothing to do with the intrinsic qualities of the longspear beyond "it is unwieldy to throw" since those two weapons are basically the same thing save for one being larger than the other.
The Startoss issue is that Startoss style itself refers to "[a] weapon from the thrown fighter weapon group" whereas the subsequent feats in the chain refer to "a single ranged thrown weapon attack" and there's some uncertainty as to whether an attack with a weapon happens to be a "Thrown weapon attack" simply because it is made with a weapon in the thrown fighter group. Do I have this right?
That is the specific question related to Startoss Style, yes. This is a fairly complex question, and it's difficult for me to even properly convey it. But simply put, what intrinsically makes a weapon a thrown weapon? Weapon group, or what a weapon can do? I'm going to go on a limb and say that the fact that some weapons haven't been added to fighter weapon groups is just an oversight rather than a balance thing. Because it being a balance thing would be silly.
I'm not familiar with the ability in Adventurer's Armory 2 that apparently allows you to move weapons into different weapon groups. Would a slingstaff you make into a polearm count as being in both the thrown and the polearms weapon group?
If it's a melee weapon, you have to choose a melee weapon group. So no, but you can treat it as a bow, a firearm or a crossbow.
For the Startoss question I don't think the game requires (or benefits from) distinguishing between thrown weapon attacks and ranged weapon attacks. I believe the line in Startoss Comet is simply there to prevent you from making melee attacks that ricochet (with a dagger, say) because that would be nonsensical. The requirement for it being "thrown" ought to be satisfied by being the weapon you chose for the first feat in the chain. To wit, a weapon in the thrown weapon group is defined as one that is capable of making effective ranged thrown weapon attacks (you can throw bardiche or a crossbow, but it's not going to work that well.) The reason a spear is in the thrown group but a longspear is not has nothing to do with the intrinsic qualities of the longspear beyond "it is unwieldy to throw" since those two weapons are basically the same thing save for one being larger than the other.
Well, longspears have no throwing range increment, while a shortspear does. That's pretty important to know if it can be thrown or not. I get what you're saying, but that seems to align with my impressions. And that is that the weapon group does impart onto the weapon the classification of it being that type of weapon (with any gaps as a result of writers not giving a weapon a weapon group excluded). So, going back to the weapon modification, while you can't make a longspear be treated as a thrown weapon (no range increment), it can be treated as, say, a heavy blade. Does that impart upon the weapon all the benefits of it being a heavy blade, or is it only for feats and weapon training where that distinction is important?
Furthermore, if I make a bow be treated as a thrown weapon, could I then use it with Startoss Comet? Or Startoss Shower?
A question to add: Does adding light/heavy blade to a weapon let it qualify for a tengu's Swordtrained prerequisite of 'swordlike weapons'?
I'd love to agree, but I want to understand how these weapons grouped as they do, and whether there is a distinction between weapon rules and weapon groups, or if they are one and the same by merit of using those rules. What is the difference between a firearm being a firearm, and being in the firearm weapon group. If a class feature, like a Gunslinger's deeds, interacts with firearms, how does that apply to a weapon being treated as part of the firearm weapon group, like through this new weapon modification?
I know it seems pedantic, but I would just love some clarification on this or something concrete to really make sure I'm not making any assumptions.
Purple Overkill: It would be nice if things where clearly separated but they aren't. For instance, I play a Far Strike Monk. They are " proficient with all thrown weapons" and may flurry with thrown weapons. Now just what weapons are those? The only list is the weapon group. Do we assume it's any weapon with a range increment that doesn't list ammo? What about a weapon with the throwing enchant: does that make it a thrown weapon then?
Really, as I see it, the big issue we have is not having the ability to 100% say something is or isn't included unless we have a list and that only happens with the groups. For instance if you got a bonus with all kinds of crossbows, you'd look at the weapon group instead of looking though all the simple to exotic weapon descriptions to see which ones counted. It's NOT like weapons have their weapon 'type' listed.
Purple Overkill is correct. The weapon groups are (in at least some cases, seemingly arbitrary) groups of weapons that some rules such as the fighters weapon training refer to.
The weapon groups do not change or affect weapon qualities in any way whatsoever.
They are independent effects.
So adding a longsword to the thrown weapon group would allow a fighter to add his weapon training: thrown weapons bonus to hit and damage, but it would not be a thrown weapon for a feat requiring a thrown weapon.
Looks like your longsword would get the damage bonus from startoss style, but you could not use it for either comet or shower unless you find a way to make the longsword an actual thrown weapon (giving it the 'throwing' magic ability should work).
But that would mean weapons already in the thrown weapon group do not work with Startoss Comet, like slings. Why is the sling in there if it isn't a thrown weapon?
(Also, you couldn't use the modification to make it a part of the thrown weapon group anyway. Again, ranged weapon group, so you can only modify a weapon that is already ranged into that group. I also believe Startoss Style is supposed to only work with ranged attacks with weapons in thrown weapon group, but that's only in PFS as far as I know and I'm not sure if that was authorial intent or a PFS ruling)
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Waifu, it mainly means that you overrate what "weapon group" means.
I think my issue is that often the weapon group is the ONLY defined list of weapons available. So I'd say you're underrating weapon groups. How else do I know what a pole arm is if I don't look at the group? They aren't listed with a polearm descriptor so if I have an ability that say something about polearms, where else can I look?
take Phalanx Soldier's Phalanx Fighting ability: "when a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon." Without looking at the groups, how do you tell which weapons are polearms/spears?
The Polearm Master gets Steadfast Pike: "gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls with readied attacks and attacks of opportunity made with a spear or polearm." Same question as above: where is that list of polearms/spears excluding the weapon groups?
If you say 'well weapon groups don't do that', then follow up and say what DOES do that.
A weapons TYPE is what it actually is.
that's fine: then please tell me HOW you can tell what the type is? The individual weapons don't tell you. For instance, if you don't use groups, can you PROVE a Lucerne hammer or a Ranseur is a polearm? It's fine to say not to use the group but then HOW are types figured out?
A firearm with a bayonet on it might fall under the Light Blades fighter weapon group, but it's still a firearm, not a sword.
looking at the tengu's Swordtrained ability, bastard swords, daggers, elven curve blades, falchions, greatswords, kukris, longswords, punching daggers, rapiers, scimitars, short swords, and two-bladed swords are swordlike weapons. As such, I'd disagree that a bayonet isn't a sword. Of course without a definitive list of 'swords', it's kind of hard to say who's right. ;)
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Whether or not a weapon is in a fighter weapon training group has no bearing on what type of weapon it is. A sling is a projectile weapon. It is not a thrown weapon, despite being in the thrown weapon group. If a feat requires a weapon in the thrown weapon group (such as startoss style), it will work with a sling. If a feat requires a thrown weapon (such as close quarters thrower), it will not work with a sling.
If a feat requires a thrown weapon (such as close quarters thrower), it will not work with a sling.
But, once again, what is a thrown weapon? Is an improvised weapon you can throw one? Is a bastard sword with the throwing enchant one? heck, if we look at thrown under equipment, they even talk "throw[ing] a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown"; so doesn't that mean ANY melee weapon is a thrown weapon by default?
the issue with sling is that it's on the ONLY list of thrown weapons that's even reasonably complete. Thrown weapons, excluding group, doesn't have a satisfactory way to figure out just what's included or not: it's the same with other 'types'.
As I've asked the others Imbicatus, just how are we to figure out what weapon falls under each 'type' if we don't use the weapons group listings?
I always felt that close-quarters thrower should work with slings, because this is an artifact of how proficiencies work. A sling is, after all, just a means to gain mechanical advantage so you can throw something harder, you just don't have a proficiency for "rock".
I'm hoping we get some kind of PDT response. Since the argument that says "close-quarters thrower doesn't work with slings" is close to "startoss comet doesn't work with sling".
how are we to figure out what weapon falls under each 'type' if we don't use the weapons group listings?
What are you trying to achieve by ignoring the weapons group listings?
I assume you have some reason that you don't want to use them. But what's the point?
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I see this as an opportunity to get some clarity on how this works since we seem to be getting more and more effects related to weapon type and weapon groups, and the distinction between those is not clarified at all by the rules. Because as graystone is arguing, we don't actually have a list other than weapon group to determine what makes a weapon the type it is.
And if it IS weapon group, does that mean that any weapon within those groups can be used with feats asking for attacks with thrown weapons, or with crossbows, etc.
If it isn't weapon group, how else do we determine if a weapon is a polearm or not? Note that we have some strange weapons in weapon groups as well. For instance, a nodachi is both a heavy blade AND a polearm (for some reason). Is it a polearm outside of the weapon group? Does it work with Phalanx Soldier's Phalanx Fighting (which asks for polearms, not for the polearm weapon group explicitly)? How can you tell if it is or not, since apparently the devs have seen fit to put them into polearms as well.
how are we to figure out what weapon falls under each 'type' if we don't use the weapons group listings?What are you trying to achieve by ignoring the weapons group listings?
I assume you have some reason that you don't want to use them. But what's the point?
I'm personally wondering how far we can stretch the new weapon modification that lets you make any weapon be treated as a weapon of another weapon group (while apparently increasing it's weapon proficiency type by one step, so Simple>Martial>Exotic, which implies this has changed the weapon to the point of no longer functioning as it's previous type, and now requires specialised proficiency)
Because depending on how this all clicks together, you could see some absolutely ridiculous combinations of class features and weapons. (hint, look at Gun Scavenger. Look at Go by Feel. Look at Change Out. Now imagine a sling with scatter. You have my reasoning right there)
But nothing explains what imparts upon a weapon the fact that is, say, a firearm. And the only comprehensive list is the fighter weapon group.
how are we to figure out what weapon falls under each 'type' if we don't use the weapons group listings?What are you trying to achieve by ignoring the weapons group listings?
I assume you have some reason that you don't want to use them. But what's the point?
I don't think you've comprehended what I'm saying. Some suggest that you don't look at the groups but instead use some undefined 'type'. I'M asking why they are ignoring the groups and how you figure out what 'type' a weapon is without them. It's not me that's ignoring the groups.
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Thrown weapons and projectile weapons are defined in the equipment chapter of the CRB.
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, halfling sling staves, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.
Thrown weapons and projectile weapons are defined in the equipment chapter of the CRB.
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, halfling sling staves, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.
Awesome, so now we actually have rules to demonstrate the difference between a thrown and projectile weapon. That answers my question about Startoss Comet then!
Now...what about my other questions? Do we have anything like this for other weapons?
Thrown weapons and projectile weapons are defined in the equipment chapter of the CRB.
yes I pointed that out:
But, once again, what is a thrown weapon? Is an improvised weapon you can throw one? Is a bastard sword with the throwing enchant one? heck, if we look at thrown under equipment, they even talk "throw[ing] a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown"; so doesn't that mean ANY melee weapon is a thrown weapon by default?
So does that section answer the questions I had? Are thrown improvised weapons thrown weapons? Are melee weapons without a range that are thrown anyway thrown weapons? Throwing enchant adds thrown to type?
And even if you think that section is enough for thrown, what defines a polearm?: is a nodachi one? An axe?: is a pick one? A flail?: is a Morningstar one? A crossbow?: is a tube arrow shooter one? A hammer?: is a Planson one? A spear?: is a Orc skull ram one?
HOW do you figure what type the weapon is without the group? If you think a weapon group is the wrong place, PLEASE tell me where I should look...
I would guess that firearms would be the ones described in UC/UE rather than the weapon group for most purposes that say firearm but not firearm weapon group, simply because this is the most "future-proofed" interpretation. Just a guess though, don't actually have a RAW quote.
For polearms/spears ... I would rule in the reverse as a GM because looking at each weapon and saying "does that seem like a polearm" is too cumbersome, despite my confusion at how scythes are not polearms somehow. Or how the Dwarven Longaxe/Longhammer aren't polearms. But unlike thrown weapons/firearms we don't have anything more official defining Pathfinder's polearm weapons.
That said, double standards in the rules are poor form in general, so I'll gladly request an FAQ the topic.
I would guess that firearms would be the ones described in UC/UE rather than the weapon group for most purposes that say firearm but not firearm weapon group, simply because this is the most "future-proofed" interpretation.
the problem there are those funky firearm/melee weapons: they aren't double weapons and can be used as both firearm and melee weapon without saying how those interact. Someone could claim the +dex damage to firearms, from gunslinger, while using one in melee and I don't have anything to show they are wrong.
I'm perfectly fine using something other that the groups if possible, but even the ones that are defined have issues.
What TYPE the weapon is is written in it's description or as part of it's name. If that isn't specific, there's always the googles.
that's pretty much the definition of NOT a rule. it's an excellent way to add confusion and arguing into the game as one person thinks one way and someone else thinks another and NO ONE knows who's right... I don't have to guess what spells are illusion spells why should I have to guess what's a polearm... Would you expect someone running PFS to stop the game and goggle your weapon to make a personal opinion of whether your abilities are going to work with your weapon?
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The reason scythes are not polearms is because the devs used a farming scythe as the basis for that decision, not a war scythe, which is functionally similar to a fauchard.
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I mean, the weird one is that a nodachi, despite being a sword, *is* a polearm (and a heavy blade) whereas the Dwarven Longhammer is a Hammer (but not a polearm) but the Lucerne Hammer is a polearm (but not a hammer.)
I almost wonder if the PDT expectation is "make sense of this for yourself."
I almost wonder if the PDT expectation is "make sense of this for yourself."
It sort of seems like it, but I find that odd. With all the time and effort put into PFS, it seems strange to leave something like this to "make sense of this for yourself". I think they'd want people to know if they bring a dwarf Phalanx Soldier to a table, that they could be sure the Dwarven Longhammer they picked actually worked with their class abilities or not: leaving it up to the whim of whatever DM you come across seems like bad form.
EDIT: The reason I'd like this answered is I play pathfinder online and more often than not I have a different DM every time. Knowing ahead of time what weapons work with what abilities cuts down on the pregame questions. there's enough to clear as it is without adding more things. Not everyone has a static DM that can easily make sense of it and set down a rule on which weapons are what type.
It's honestly kind of perturbing that this might matter now. The new thing from AA2 seems intended to let fighters put their backup weapon in the same group as their primary weapon so as to get the biggest weapon training bonus on each (even though there are "how does this make sense" issues a la "how exactly does your cestus count as a polearm?") since otherwise you'd just pick whatever weapon group has the weapon you prefer to take training in.
But I'd like for Startoss Comet to work with slings too (both because this was the designer's intent, and because "skipping a rock off of one person and hitting his buddy" makes a lot more sense than doing the same with a javelin).
Not only that, but I fear that the "swapping weapon groups" is mostly going to be used for cheesy things anyway, like a Brawler flurrying with a lucerne hammer because it's modified to be in the close weapon group.
What you try is turning it from a permissive tool into a descriptive tool.
it's not me, it's the GAME that's doing it. We have rules based on undefined elements. You picked firearms which actually HAS some description and list. What about a polearm? An Axe?
If a class feature, feat or something comes up that gives you a permission to use or alter something, you need to know what you´re actually permitted to use it on, then you consult the list to see what you´re actually permitted to.
Great, we agree. Show me the list of polearms, axes, hammers, flail, crossbow or spear.
I'd be fine with using whatever LIST of weapon we had to figure out what a weapon's type is. The issue at hand is the only lists are the weapon groups...
Edit: I guess this is the fallout caused by AMH/WMH. The core Fighter is supposed to wield a broad array of weapons and now we´re back again to them being specialized on one or max two weapons again. The unintended side-effect could be Brawlers using Shield Brace and a Naginata.....
Actually there is NO question about brawlers as their feature look at the weapon group: Well actually there could be a question if the brawler multiclasses into a Phalanx Soldier and tries to use that close nodachi with his class abilities as there is no list of polearms other than weapon groups and you're telling me I shouldn't look there to figure out is it's a polearm.