Does wearing a Phylactery of Positive Channeling permit a 7th cleric to have the prerequisites for the Channeled Revival feat?
Page 92 Ultimate Combat:
Channeled Revival
You can expend a large portion of your channeling power to reverse death itself.
Prerequisite: Channel energy 6d6 (positive energy).
Benefit: As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, you can expend three uses of your channel energy class feature to restore a dead creature to life as if you had cast the breath of life spell (Core Rulebook 251).
Page 526 CRB:
PHYLACTERY OF POSITIVE CHANNELING
This item allows channelers of positive energy to increase the amount of damage dealt to undead creatures by +2d6. This also increases the amount of damage healed by living creatures.
It's not that I don't believe you, but do you have a rules source for that?
Channeled Revival
Prerequisite: Channel energy 6d6
PHYLACTERY OF POSITIVE CHANNELING
...increase ...
I have channel energy 6d6 so I qualify.
Do you need it naturally or can you take feats with prerequisites you only temporarily satisfy? That was the question the OP was asking and I was hoping you had a rules reference for.
If looking at the wording I would actually say no.
While it says "increase to harm undead" and "increase to heal" it doesnt just say straight up increase. It's going out of it's way to say "increase what it does without actually increasing it."
So in this respect I would actually disagree with chess pwn
Its like saying "add a plus one bonus on longswords to hit undead constructs etc" throiugh the whole list and thinking it's weapon focus. Its the same end result but is it weapon focus?
A belt of str increases your str by 2, putting your str to 13 from the 11 it used to be. You can now qualify for power attack.
So no, you don't need to "naturally" meet prerequisites for stuff.
@Cavall's statement
from the cleric's channel energy.
"The amount of damage dealt or healed is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every two cleric levels beyond 1st."
So since channel energy itself is seemed to be broken up into harming or healing, having the item match that style seems appropriate.
Like the only way to phrase it "better" would have been "increase the amount of damage dealt to harm undead and/or healed when healing the living by 2d6"
Which is the same meaning as what we currently have, "increase damage dealt to undead by 2d6, and 'this increase to damaging undead' also increases the amount you heal to living."
Showing that it's just a 2d6 increase to what positive channel is doing.
The rule (convention?) with stat boosts is that you can qualify for feats and such if the bonus is "permanent". So, Bull's Strength won't let you qualify for Power Attack, but a Belt of Giant Strength +4 would (even though they both give a bonus of the same type).
I'm inclined to think the Phylactery would work on the same theory, but I'm not aware of any rule that resolves the question.
Even the "rule" for Belt vs. Bull's Strength seems to be more of a set of forum posts by James Jacobs and Sean Reynolds than anything more directly from the text.
I've no argument that a belt boosts the stat therefore allows for prereq.
It says boost strength by two.
No where does the item say boosts dice by 2.
Just boosts it by 2 for certain things.
So a better comparison is asking of a belt that allows boosted bonuses to carrying climbing and swimming etc allows you to qualify for power attack.
And like I said, I'm not sure.
My point is this belt goes out of it's way to avoid saying "add 2 dice to positive channels period bar none" for a reason.
I think this may be the reason. So I respectfully disagree with your assessment.
So, do we have a general agreement on the principle that bonuses from items can be used to meet pqs, but a specific issue with whether or not this item counts, because it (depending on which side you are on) may not raise ykur actual channel dice, but instead provide a bonus to specific applications?
cause channel energy isn't a set dice. It's an ability split between damaging or healing. When something says increase the amount you damage and heal with channel energy, which is used to damage or heal, by +2d6 that is increasing the channel. Because channel is saying that you do 1d6 to damage dealt or healing.
It never says that channel energy is 1d6 that can be toward either damage or healing. Channel energy isn't 1d6, but 1d6 for harm or 1d6 for healing.
So the reason it doesn't say add 2d6 to channel energy bar none is because channel energy itself isn't written to have something that you could just add 2d6 to.
EDIT:
Like if a feat or ability said, "increase the base damage a weapon does by +1d6 when you hit things with it" would you be arguing that the base damage of the weapon isn't increased, because it's only increasing if for something specific and not a generic increase bar non, even though that specific item it's increasing is the only thing the weapon actually does?
Java Man wrote: So, do we have a general agreement on the principle that bonuses from items can be used to meet pqs, but a specific issue with whether or not this item counts, because it (depending on which side you are on) may not raise ykur actual channel dice, but instead provide a bonus to specific applications? Absolutely yes. I can agree with that no question. I wouldn't even try to agree that if this item said "increase dice by 2" and that's it, it would 100% qualify. This item for some reason doesn't.
Chess pwn:
Disagree. There is absolutely a set die. Look at the feat linked. It says "6d6 positive channel."
Not "the ability to heal 6d6 with positive channel and harm undead with 6d6 positive energy."
A clear line has been drawn. 6d6 is a set dice. There is no way to get around that. It's clear as day.
So why doesn't this item simply say "increases positive energy by 2d6"?
I can't think of a single reason except doesn't allow you to qualify. There must be a reason it adds so much text to go around the longest way possible to avoid saying it.
You keepnlisting examples that are "adds to base" or "adds to strength" bit this doesn't do that. It's adding to things it would do as if an increase without specifically saying "Hey just increase the dice"
And as pointed out the feat is clear. Dice ARE a set thing.
"Prerequisite: Channel energy 6d6 (positive energy). "
Reminder that by the most obtuse reading only Paladins have "Channel Positive Energy" which obviously isn't true
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Cause the author wanted to match the layout of channel energy, where it's separated into various parts.
If you're arguing that you need a flat 6d6 then I'd say you're arguing that one can NEVER qualify for the feat. Cause when you channel the amount of damage dealt or healed is equal to Xd6. You never have a generic flat channel of 6d6. Just that when you damage creatures or heal them the amount is Xd6. If you're taking that dealing or healing 6d6 is the same as channeling flat 6d6 required for the feat, then an item increasing the amount dealt or healed by your channel by 2d6 should also count.
You don't just channel energy 6d6 with positive energy. You Either channel to hurt undead for 6d6 or to heal living for 6d6. Thus the item increasing your channel to hurt undead by 2d6 and increasing your channel to heal living by 2d6 puts you channeling to hurt undead to 8d6 and channeling to heal living to 8d6.
Java Man wrote: So, do we have a general agreement on the principle that bonuses from items can be used to meet pqs No, I don't think so.
It isn't clear if a non-natural bonus or a temporary bonus can be used to qualify for a feat. Can I take power attack if I have Strength 10 and can rage? Can I take power attack if I have Strength 10 and a potion of Bull's Strength? The ability to cast Bull's Strength? A belt that replicates Bull's Strength?
There is a special carve out for ability scores.
Permanent Bonuses wrote: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed. That is what is generally cited in support of a strength belt allowing you to take Power Attack. Channel Energy isn't covered by that. You could, if you were the GM, expand that rationale to magic items generally, but it would be an expansion and an act of GM fiat.
A reasonable extension, IMO, but for PFS or some other environment where RAW matters more, mileage will vary.
So cleric doesn't say "channel xd6" and a choice between positive and negative?
No. I am arguing that the item needs to say "adds 2d6 to channel positive".
This doesnt.
Just as if a belt gave +2 to strength vs one that gave +2 to carrying capacity. Or +1 to hit and damage.
A paladin gives +1d6 to lay on hands when not using mercies with a feat. Does this mean 6d6 lay on hands? No. It means 5d6 +1d6 when not using mercies. Such a paladin wouldn't qualify for a feat that requires 6d6.
And that's what this looks like to me. It's 4d6 channel and add 2 more to heal (or harm undead)
It's just not saying "add 2d6". Just like with the other examples its adding riders. Why?
Ring_of_Gyges wrote: Java Man wrote: So, do we have a general agreement on the principle that bonuses from items can be used to meet pqs No, I don't think so.
It isn't clear if a non-natural bonus or a temporary bonus can be used to qualify for a feat. Can I take power attack if I have Strength 10 and can rage? Can I take power attack if I have Strength 10 and a potion of Bull's Strength? The ability to cast Bull's Strength? A belt that replicates Bull's Strength?
There is a special carve out for ability scores.
Permanent Bonuses wrote: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed. That is what is generally cited in support of a strength belt allowing you to take Power Attack. Channel Energy isn't covered by that. You could, if you were the GM, expand that rationale to magic items generally, but it would be an expansion and an act of GM fiat.
A reasonable extension, IMO, but for PFS or some other environment where RAW matters more, mileage will vary. Only one of your examples is an item and certainly would qualify. Just as if you had 13 STR, grabbed the feat and then took 1 STR damage but could rage. You wouldn't qualify when the damage hit but would when you raised your STR back up.
The item CAN'T say "adds 2d6 to channel positive" as that's not how channel energy works. If the item said that, it'd do NOTHING.
Now if it said, "add 2d6 to the damage dealt to undead when you channel positive energy and add 2d6 to the damage healed when you channel positive energy to heal living" then it would match the wording of channel energy and work. OH WAIT, THAT IS HOW THE ITEM IS WORDED.
A cleric channels either positive or negative energy. Positive energy hurts undead and heals living. When they channel energy they choose to target living or undead. The damage dealt or healing done is 1d6.
This can be rearranged to say,
A cleric channels either positive energy, which when used can target undead and hurts them for 1d6 +1d6 per 2 levels and or can be used to target living creatures which heals them for 1d6 +1d6 per 2 levels or it channels.
If channel energy were instead written to say, "Channel energy is 1d6, +1d6 per 2 levels, and either is positive or negative. When you channel choose living or undead, if positive targeting living you heal an amount of damage equal to the amount of channel energy, if positive targeting undead you deal damage equal to the of channel energy...." then there'd be something to "add 2d6 to channel positive" to. But that's not how the ability is written.
The item can certainly say that as that's all the prereq in the feat asks for.
Channel 6d6 positive.
So clearly you can do that perfectly fine.
This item doesn't.
The feat itself proves your line of thought to be incorrect.
I should add I'd love for the item to do this. Until reading it today I thought it's what it did. But it doesn't. It simply adds on 2 extra dice to heal or harm. It doesn't add 2d6 to the channel base to qualify for feats.
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I’m looking to take liberating channel at L9 instead of never.
Whom would I have to buy an ale to get an official ruling one way or another?
If you loom at the other times this came up, you will see no clear answer. I think most day no though.
But here also is my opinion, over time what was agreed to be no, is no longer so. People change there mind.
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