Kineticist Elemental Whispers familar + Improved Familiar?

[Thrag Stonebringer]

I was wondering how the Kineticist wild talent 'Elemental Whispers' would work if you took the 'Improved Familiar' feat instead of upgrading it with the 'Greater Elemental Whispers' talent.

Would you maintain the ability to manifest your familiar like the base elemental whispers talent, but get to choose something from the improved familiars list to be able to manifest it as?

Elemental Whispers:

You form a friendship with a fragment of your element. The element speaks back to you empathically, like a familiar. Pick a type of creature usually allowed as a familiar when you gain this wild talent. You gain the Alertness feat and the special abilities granted by a familiar of that type. As a standard action, you can give the voice of the element the body of such a creature, using elemental matter of the appropriate element within 30 feet. As long as you concentrate, the familiar can take actions as a normal animal of its type, and it can move any distance away from you, though if it takes any damage or you cease concentrating, it returns to your mind. You lose Alertness while the familiar is manifested in this way. The familiar gains abilities as usual for a familiar of its type, though it never gains the ability to speak with animals of its kind.

Greater Elemental Whispers:

Your friendship with the elements has grown. You gain your choice of a wysp or Small elemental of your primary element as an improved familiar, without needing to meet any of the usual prerequisites for gaining such a familiar. Unlike with elemental whispers, this improved familiar acts in all ways like a familiar: it’s always manifested, it has hit points equal to 1/2 your own, and so on. You no longer receive the familiar benefits from the original creature you selected. If your improved familiar dies, you can still contact its voice in your mind and gain the Alertness feat, but you can’t cause it to manifest. If you pay the usual costs for replacing a familiar, you manifest a new form for your elemental friend.

Improved Familiar:

When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed here are also available to you. You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).

Improved familiars otherwise use the rules for regular familiars, with two exceptions: if the creature’s type is something other than animal, its type does not change; and improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind (although many of them already have the ability to communicate).

[Imbicatus]

A kineticist isn't eligible for the improved familiar feat by RAW, as it requires an arcane caster level.

[Thrag Stonebringer]

"Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level"

Doesn't look like it specifies 'arcane caster' in the pre-reqs to me.

[pocsaclypse]

The tables have a column labeled "Arcane Spellcaster Level."

[Imbicatus]

Thrag Stonebringer wrote:

"Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level"

Doesn't look like it specifies 'arcane caster' in the pre-reqs to me.

You forgot the (see below).

If you look at the feat text, you'll see the chart listing possible improved familiars, and each one has a minimum arcane caster level.

[David knott 242]

Imbicatus wrote:

Thrag Stonebringer wrote:

"Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level"

Doesn't look like it specifies 'arcane caster' in the pre-reqs to me.

You forgot the (see below).

If you look at the feat text, you'll see the chart listing possible improved familiars, and each one has a minimum arcane caster level.

This FAQ says that that column is not to be interpreted that way.

[Imbicatus]

David knott 242 wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Thrag Stonebringer wrote:

"Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level"

Doesn't look like it specifies 'arcane caster' in the pre-reqs to me.

You forgot the (see below).

If you look at the feat text, you'll see the chart listing possible improved familiars, and each one has a minimum arcane caster level.

This FAQ says that that column is not to be interpreted that way.

You're correct, and I had missed that FAQ. However, the FAQ offers no help for the kineticist, as it specifically denies temporary familiars from becoming improved familiars. It's referring to the souldbound poppet, but as elemental whispers is only manifested as long as you concentrate, it should qualify as temporary.

[Thrag Stonebringer]

Ah, on to plan B then.

Thanks guys

[David knott 242]

Imbicatus wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Thrag Stonebringer wrote:

"Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level"

Doesn't look like it specifies 'arcane caster' in the pre-reqs to me.

You forgot the (see below).

If you look at the feat text, you'll see the chart listing possible improved familiars, and each one has a minimum arcane caster level.

This FAQ says that that column is not to be interpreted that way.

You're correct, and I had missed that FAQ. However, the FAQ offers no help for the kineticist, as it specifically denies temporary familiars from becoming improved familiars. It's referring to the souldbound poppet, but as elemental whispers is only manifested as long as you concentrate, it should qualify as temporary.

Agreed. I thought there was some reason that the idea discussed in this thread shouldn't work, but I was pretty sure that the fact that a Kineticist is not actually an arcane caster wasn't it.

[Saethori]

There is also one other impediment involved in this.

Elemental Whispers wrote:

The familiar gains abilities as usual for a familiar of its type, though it never gains the ability to speak with animals of its kind.

Improved Familiar FAQ wrote:

In other cases, treat Improved Familiar as if it was an archetype to see if it stacks with other familiar options: since the two things it alters from a regular familiar are that it removes the ability to speak with animals of its kind and it prevents changing the creature type for non-animals, you couldn’t make a familiar that changes the creature type of non-animals or alters or removes speak with animals of its kind an Improved Familiar.

The temporary familiar never gains access to the ability necessary for you to make it an Improved Familiar.

You should, however, be able to give it another archetype that does not replace Speak with Others of its Kind, such as Emissary.

[Texas Snyper]

Your best bet is the Greater Elemental Whispers talent for a wysp or small elemental. You can even make them sage familiar.

[Arden Oakwald]

Now, once you have Greater Elemental Whispers, you do have a legit familiar, right? So you could take Improved Familiar afterwords and then replace your wysp/elemental at the next opportune time?
(Especially with something like an elementally appropriate Mephit, which imo should be an option anyway)

Another thing, though, is I don't know if the normal elemental whispers is temporary - even if the familiar doesn't have a body, it is still there all the time, giving you it's benefit and being able to communicate with you.
Body-optional, but fully present.
I don't think it is a temporary familiar.

[Ascalaphus]

Seems pretty clear to me that (Greater) Elemental Whispers is meant to lead specifically to a Wysp, not something else.

[Arden Oakwald]

In the same regard, it seems pretty clear that a Serpentine Sorcerer's bloodline power is supposed to lead specifically to a serpent familiar,
but it is still viable to change it via Improved Familiar.

Just because something is intended to do one thing, doesn't mean you can't add to it with more feats and abilities to get it to do more, or something different.