|
Select a corner of the medium creature's square, the 4 squares touch that corner is affected.
Example, with medium creature marked 'm' and affected squares 'x' (which also includes 'm').
x x
m x
Now, that's RAW so expect some table variation, where some play where all surrounding 8 squares are effected, YMMV.
The FAQ only addressed large+ creatures but the intent is clear that it should be measured from the edge of your space.
|
|
The FAQ only addressed large+ creatures but the intent is clear that it should be measured from the edge of your space.
You just reminded me of an earlier post that delved into this topic, particularly because it eventually started discussing other sized creatures and mentioned the FAQ a few times.
How do spells "centered on Caster" function?
IMO, Paizo needs to clarify the FAQ to include all creature sizes. As it works now RAW, we're supposed to use one standard for Large+ and another for Medium /smaller.
I assume it's 5-feet from the creature's space. Nothing else really makes sense, or is remotely consistent.
The rules are very clear on this.Yeah but the rules are also supposedly intended to be read conversationally and resolving it the way you described certainly fails utterly to fit the description of 'centered'.
Well, not centered on caster at least. ;)
And remember, it's 'read it conversationally' unless you shouldn't. Too bad there is no way to know which way any particular rule is meant to be read. ;P
The nearest thing we have to an official statement about PDT intent is:
Mark, I think the point andreww was trying to make is that this rule should apply to ALL creatures, including Medium and Small creatures. The way the paragraph is written now it does. If you change it to "such creatures" then it won't apply to Medium and Small creatures, which would be a shame because then for 5-ft. emanations, there will be only three adjacent squares that are affected and five adjacent squares that are unaffected. Even for 10-ft. emanations, there will be at least one ADJACENT square that is unaffected! That doesn't sound much like a 10-ft. emanation.5 ft emanations for Medium creatures are absolutely supposed to apply to only those other 3 squares, for certain (I can assure you because I know what the discussion entailed, so I know it was a wording snafu, just like the spurious "Answer:"). Spells like emergency force sphere are already strong enough.
So it sounds like the shapes of emanations are supposed to be weirdly inconsistent for the sake of a vague attempt at reducing caster-marital disparity, or something like that.
The nearest thing we have to an official statement about PDT intent is:
So it sounds like the shapes of emanations are supposed to be weirdly inconsistent for the sake of a vague attempt at reducing caster-marital disparity, or something like that.Mark, I think the point andreww was trying to make is that this rule should apply to ALL creatures, including Medium and Small creatures. The way the paragraph is written now it does. If you change it to "such creatures" then it won't apply to Medium and Small creatures, which would be a shame because then for 5-ft. emanations, there will be only three adjacent squares that are affected and five adjacent squares that are unaffected. Even for 10-ft. emanations, there will be at least one ADJACENT square that is unaffected! That doesn't sound much like a 10-ft. emanation.5 ft emanations for Medium creatures are absolutely supposed to apply to only those other 3 squares, for certain (I can assure you because I know what the discussion entailed, so I know it was a wording snafu, just like the spurious "Answer:"). Spells like emergency force sphere are already strong enough.
The 5' emanation only looks right if you put the character in an intersection of 4 squares. Since you have to be IN a square, it look lopsided, much like you have to ride a large mount from one corner instead of sitting in the center.
Riding a large mount, aren't you considered to be in all four squares so you can be attacked from any direction? So presumably a mounted mage could get the benefits of a twenty by twenty emanation.
What is more, if you put it in the intersection what happens from round to round? Does the intersection change if he 'turns'?
Does he have to do a weird dance to keep those 4 squares on a specific side of him (ie: a mini-cone in a constant direction?).
It is a bad rule. It should be 5' radius from his square, just like they did for large+.
Riding a large mount, aren't you considered to be in all four squares so you can be attacked from any direction? So presumably a mounted mage could get the benefits of a twenty by twenty emanation.
The mount is L, your character is still M. If the spell is emanating from you (not your mount) then it would still abide by M creature emanation rules. If you could cast the spell on your mount, then it would emanate from a L creature, benefiting from the Large creature emanation rules.
I'd say, in that scenario, the point of origin of the emanation would be the "fixed" grid intersection right in the center of your mount, affecting all four squares the mount occupies.
Riding a large mount, aren't you considered to be in all four squares so you can be attacked from any direction? So presumably a mounted mage could get the benefits of a twenty by twenty emanation.
Sorry, I was thinking vehicle. A large vehicle can't have a driver space in it's center.
What is more, if you put it in the intersection what happens from round to round?
I was only saying that's the only way the spacing as is makes sense visually. I doesn't work in game as you need to be IN a space.
It should be 5' radius from his square, just like they did for large+.
I agree. I was just saying that the current way isn't centered on the user visually.
Riding a large mount, aren't you considered to be in all four squares so you can be attacked from any direction? So presumably a mounted mage could get the benefits of a twenty by twenty emanation.The mount is L, your character is still M. If the spell is emanating from you (not your mount) then it would still abide by M creature emanation rules. If you could cast the spell on your mount, then it would emanate from a L creature, benefiting from the Large creature emanation rules.
I'd say, in that scenario, the point of origin of the emanation would be the "fixed" grid intersection right in the center of your mount, affecting all four squares the mount occupies.
Except the rules say you occupy all spaces that your mount occupies.
Occupying all four spaces doesn't make you Large, though - if it did it would affect your AC, CMD, etc. In which case, the FAQ ruling wouldn't apply. So I think the RAW answer is that you pick one corner of one of your squares and the 5' radius emanation comes from there?
Except the rules say you occupy all spaces that your mount occupies.
The exact wording states:
For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.
Rules state the that a rider may share mount space (for "simplicity" reasons, essentially pointing is not the most correct way but the "fastest"), they don't state the rider is enlarged to their mount size. Because of space sharing the rider can threaten more squares (and can be threatened from more squares), but rider's size is still unchanged.
Except the rules say you occupy all spaces that your mount occupies.The exact wording states:
For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.Rules state the that a rider may share mount space (for "simplicity" reasons, essentially pointing is not the most correct way but the "fastest"), they don't state the rider is enlarged to their mount size. Because of space sharing the rider can threaten more squares (and can be threatened from more squares), but rider's size is still unchanged.
At no point did I state you were large or enlarged.
However, by stating you must select the center of the mount's space you are creating a house rule.
The rider is in all 4 squares of a large mount's space simultaneously and thus any of the mount's corners (or intersections it is in contact with) is a legal choice. That is 9 intersection options, not the 1 as your house rule would restrict it to.
Like so!
<Casts Emergency Force Sphere centered on a corner of his horse to protect a couple of adjacent allies; accidentally slices his horse into two pieces...>
At no point did I state you were large or enlarged.
However, by stating you must select the center of the mount's space you are creating a house rule.
The rider is in all 4 squares of a large mount's space simultaneously and thus any of the mount's corners (or intersections it is in contact with) is a legal choice. That is 9 intersection options, not the 1 as your house rule would restrict it to.
The main issue is the interaction between both AoE's "Centered of You" cast by a M creature, and the fact that the creature is sharing a larger space. By default there is no ruling.
Per RAW, since cast is being made by a M creature then rules are clear, caster picks a grid intersection that touches the square she is located and the PoO originates from that point. That essentially grants the caster four choices (the four "corners" of the square).
But, there is no direct ruling for this (even if you check the Magic Section for area spells), it's instead considered as the "nearest" legit option for a centered spell. The character occupies a square, but the PoO must be a grid intersection, so you pick the nearest intersection that can have the character "inside" the spell's area.
Now we have to add the fact that the character now "shares" a larger area with her mount. While sharing means it benefits from extra range, the caster is still not L-sized (2x2), but M-sized instead (1x1).
That's what happened with L spellcasters and AoE's, and that's why they FAQ'ed the ruling for those creatures, so now their entire space is affected by their own spell.
For M-sized creatures, the only square that ensures that the caster will be "inside" the 5ft AoE spell is the central one since all others leave several squares out of their own area of effect. If you pick any other sqaure, then you would not be sharing an L space anymore, you would be an M creature in a square that touches the chosen grid intersection the AoE the spell is cast on.
This is getting exciting!
* munches popcorn *
At no point did I state you were large or enlarged.
However, by stating you must select the center of the mount's space you are creating a house rule.
The rider is in all 4 squares of a large mount's space simultaneously and thus any of the mount's corners (or intersections it is in contact with) is a legal choice. That is 9 intersection options, not the 1 as your house rule would restrict it to.
The main issue is the interaction between both AoE's "Centered of You" cast by a M creature, and the fact that the creature is sharing a larger space. By default there is no ruling.
Per RAW, since cast is being made by a M creature then rules are clear, caster picks a grid intersection that touches the square she is located and the PoO originates from that point. That essentially grants the caster four choices (the four "corners" of the square).
But, there is no direct ruling for this (even if you check the Magic Section for area spells), it's instead considered as the "nearest" legit option for a centered spell. The character occupies a square, but the PoO must be a grid intersection, so you pick the nearest intersection that can have the character "inside" the spell's area.
Now we have to add the fact that the character now "shares" a larger area with her mount. While sharing means it benefits from extra range, the caster is still not L-sized (2x2), but M-sized instead (1x1).
That's what happened with L spellcasters and AoE's, and that's why they FAQ'ed the ruling for those creatures, so now their entire space is affected by their own spell.
For M-sized creatures, the only square that ensures that the caster will be "inside" the 5ft AoE spell is the central one since all others leave several squares out of their own area of effect. If you pick any other sqaure, then you would not be sharing an L space anymore, you would be an M creature in a square that touches the chosen grid...
If a mount makes an acrobatics check to move over a 10 foot pit does it actually move 15 feet for a medium sized mount or does half of it hang into the pit and does that mean a mount takes a penalty on acrobatics checks to move over a pit based on the size of the mount?
At no point did I state you were large or enlarged.
However, by stating you must select the center of the mount's space you are creating a house rule.
The rider is in all 4 squares of a large mount's space simultaneously and thus any of the mount's corners (or intersections it is in contact with) is a legal choice. That is 9 intersection options, not the 1 as your house rule would restrict it to.
The main issue is the interaction between both AoE's "Centered of You" cast by a M creature, and the fact that the creature is sharing a larger space. By default there is no ruling.
Per RAW, since cast is being made by a M creature then rules are clear, caster picks a grid intersection that touches the square she is located and the PoO originates from that point. That essentially grants the caster four choices (the four "corners" of the square).
But, there is no direct ruling for this (even if you check the Magic Section for area spells), it's instead considered as the "nearest" legit option for a centered spell. The character occupies a square, but the PoO must be a grid intersection, so you pick the nearest intersection that can have the character "inside" the spell's area.
Now we have to add the fact that the character now "shares" a larger area with her mount. While sharing means it benefits from extra range, the caster is still not L-sized (2x2), but M-sized instead (1x1).
That's what happened with L spellcasters and AoE's, and that's why they FAQ'ed the ruling for those creatures, so now their entire space is affected by their own spell.
For M-sized creatures, the only square that ensures that the caster will be "inside" the 5ft AoE spell is the central one since all others leave several squares out of their own area of effect. If you pick any other sqaure, then you would not be sharing an L space anymore, you would be an M creature in a square that touches the chosen grid...
I bolded your italicized section which is the entire point.
The caster riding a large mount is in 4 squares. Thus, any corner of those 4 squares is a legal point.
I bolded your italicized section which is the entire point.
The caster riding a large mount is in 4 squares. Thus, any corner of those 4 squares is a legal point.
Actually, you bolded a wording mistake I made. It's not "touch", but inside.
First: I think we can agree that if you're casting an AoE spell "centered on you"... well, you have to be inside the spell effect as close to the center as possible. For M creatures, this is done by casting the spell in one of the four grid intersections the caster's square touches.
Second: "Sharing" a space doesn't mean your size increases, it means you can be in the same square another creature is, in some scenarios even finishing your turn there. You can share the square a helpless creature is in, finishing the turn there. Two ratfolk can share a single square in battle, finishing their turn in that square. An acrobatics check allows you to cross an enemy square, temporarily sharing it (but unable to finish her turn in that square). A rider may share the same space her mount is in, finishing her turn "on top"...
But, in all those scenarios they're still two separate creatures.
A 5ft AoE affects four squares (A to D), and 9 possible grid intersections (1 to 9):
123 AB
456 CD
789
My point is, even if you share space with your mount you must still consider you're a separate, M-sized creature for "Centered on you" spells, not because you cannot place a spell in any grid other than #5, but because you must be inside your own spell and the PoO has to be one of the four grid intersections your character's square touches. If you center a spell's PoO in #5 you can use the simplicity rule. If you cast anywhere else you cannot since you're limiting your rider's valid squares.
You are a medium creature that occupies 4 squares. Thus, you can select any intersection of those 4 squares that you occupy. As per the rules.
You are a medium creature that occupies 4 squares. Thus, you can select any intersection of those 4 squares that you occupy. As per the rules.
As per the creature size chart rules, M-size creature space is 5ft.
Mounted combat never says that a M-sized creature riding a L-sized mount now occupies a 10x10ft space, it states that you now share your mount spaces, and sharing ≠ occupying.
Ok, lets break this down.
You share your mounts space. So, how does that affect things?
(The following assumes a large mount)
Do you select one square to be in each round? No, you are in all 4 squares.
Do you attack from one particular square each round? No, you are in all 4 squares.
Can you avoid an enemy's attack by being the farthest away from the enemy but in the mount's space? No, you are in all 4 squares.
Do you threaten every square surrounding your mount with a non-reach weapon? Yes, you are in all 4 squares.
For all intents and purposes you are in the entire space your mount occupies.
If a fireball hits 1/4 of your mount's space, it hits you. You cannot say "I was in one of the other 3 squares" to avoid it.
If an attack targets you, you cannot say you are in the back corner of the mount to avoid the attack.
Similarly, you select one of your mounts intersections because...you guessed it, you are in all 4 squares.
Yes, you are still medium. So what, we are not dealing with size, we are dealing with space. Specific trumps general.
General says: Medium takes up a 5' space. (CRB p195)
Specific says: If mounted you take up your mount's space (in this case 10'x10'). (CRB p202)
Specific trumps general.
Any intersection in and around the mount is a legal option for the intersection because you are mounted. That is 9 intersection points.
However, the Large size FAQ does not apply because you are not large, even if your space is 10x10.
This is completely by the rules. I have no idea where you are getting your idea that it must be the center of the mount's space as the only legal intersection.
General says: Medium takes up a 5' space. (CRB p195)Specific says: If mounted you take up your mount's space (in this case 10'x10'). (CRB p202)
Your wording for CRB202 is different than the one the book uses (at least 6th printing, the one I have here):
A horse (not a pony) is a large creature that takes up a space 10 ft (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume you share your mount's space during combat
Your point is that once mounted, the rider, while still being M-sized (so he cannot benefit from L-creature auras) now "grows" so it takes/occupies her 10x10 mount space. The rider can now cast at 9 possible locations.
My point is that "sharing" is completely different than "taking" or "occupying". Sharing means two separate creatures can stay in the same square, either temporarily or permanently, but as long as the rider is M-sized, CRB195 states it takes/occupies a 5ft space and there's no change in mounted combat that modifies the rider's space taken.
But the main issue is not that, but the interaction with "centered on you" spells.
In my scenario, the rider is still taking a 5ft space (1 sq), so it picks a grid intersection that includes the square he is in as the PoO. Since the "simplified" rule doesn't state the exact location of the rider, there is a single grid intersection that covers all possibilities.
In your scenario, your M rider is now taking a 10x10 space (2x2 sq) so you state you can cast at 9 different Gi's. I say that is totally true for all spells that originate from the caster's possition (rays, cones, lines....) BUT the "Centered on you" ones, because for a 10x10 space there's exactly a single grid intersection that acomplishes that, with the other 8 choices no longer being centered. In you're centering a spell on a creature, you must take the grid intersection closest to the center of that creature's space.
General says: Medium takes up a 5' space. (CRB p195)Specific says: If mounted you take up your mount's space (in this case 10'x10'). (CRB p202)
Your wording for CRB202 is different than the one the book uses (at least 6th printing, the one I have here):
A horse (not a pony) is a large creature that takes up a space 10 ft (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume you share your mount's space during combatYour point is that once mounted, the rider, while still being M-sized (so he cannot benefit from L-creature auras) now "grows" so it takes/occupies her 10x10 mount space. The rider can now cast at 9 possible locations.
My point is that "sharing" is completely different than "taking" or "occupying". Sharing means two separate creatures can stay in the same square, either temporarily or permanently, but as long as the rider is M-sized, CRB195 states it takes/occupies a 5ft space and there's no change in mounted combat that modifies the rider's space taken.
But the main issue is not that, but the interaction with "centered on you" spells.
In my scenario, the rider is still taking a 5ft space (1 sq), so it picks a grid intersection that includes the square he is in as the PoO. Since the "simplified" rule doesn't state the exact location of the rider, there is a single grid intersection that covers all possibilities.
In your scenario, your M rider is now taking a 10x10 space (2x2 sq) so you state you can cast at 9 different Gi's. I say that is totally true for all spells that originate from the caster's possition (rays, cones, lines....) BUT the "Centered on you" ones, because for a 10x10 space there's exactly a single grid intersection that acomplishes that, with the other 8 choices no longer being centered. In you're centering a spell on a creature, you must take the grid intersection closest to the center of that creature's space.
The bolding is mine.
Please cite the rule. Because none of the bolded sentence is in the rules.
Normally (5x5') the entire "centered on you" mechanic doesn't make sense with choosing a grid intersection that is not your center. But that is what we have.
NOTHING changes that when you share your mounts space. Not a single thing. You still choose your intersection, and since you now count as having more space, you now have more intersections to choose from.
In fact, this would operate exactly as the pre-FAQ large creature casting the spell would operate. It wasn't from the center of that either until they changed the rules.
Until you can provide some wording in the rules that contradicts that, that is how the rules work.
... Until you can provide some wording in the rules that contradicts that, that is how the rules work.
I agree that wording matters: Sharing ≠ Taking.
CRB p195: Medium creature "takes" a 5ft space. (Below the size chart and in many other locations, CRB consistently uses the word "take" for space purposes, "occupy" tends to be used by D20PFSRD instead)
CRB p202: Mount takes a 10x10 ft space. Rider shares your mount's space.
For space purposes I see no location where RAW states that an M-sized rider grows to take/occupy (words you have been switching "share" with) a 10'x10'ft space when mounted. Until then, an M-sized rider would still take a 5ft space herself, no matter how many squares she shares with other creatures.
This is the wording contradiction I see.
Yorien, you are creating differences where there are none. Takes and shares have the exact same meaning in this case.
It is a definition of the space that the rider occupies while riding a large mount.
You then use that space to determine things like, what can hit you, what you can attack, your starting point for spells, etc.
Now, if things are the way you say they are then mounted combat works VERY differently than everyone thinks it does.
Sharing ≠ Taking.
As I see it, the reason they say you 'share' a space with your mount is that if you 'take' the space, there'd be a conflict because you can't normally have two creatures in the same square. Otherwise they mean the same to me.
I developed a house rule a while back where a medium creature on a huge creature can be considered to be in the centre square and can only attack or be attacked with reach. Is that how you think it works by RAW?